hey im just wondering if someone wanted to do a build on their first big block which would be the best choice for a all around fun engine. 454 bbd vs 460bbf
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hey im just wondering if someone wanted to do a build on their first big block which would be the best choice for a all around fun engine. 454 bbd vs 460bbf
If you have a choice----
I put a 460 in my 1970 F250 , a 1974 F350 with 460, a 1980 Ford with 400 and later had a 1984 Chev crew cab with 454-----------Ford with 460 was much better than chev 454, ford 400 dud---1970 460 had higher compression than later ones and the cam was timed earlier ( Smogela days, lower compression, retard cams, sniff exhaust pipe)
I would put alum heads on what ever you choose as the iron ones are heavy-----------
A "fun" engine??? What do you plan to do with this engine? Building it for racing? Or maybe stock? If I didn't have a preference I guess I'd go with something close by and easy to get. Perhaps start watching C-list or the local paper...
yes im told heads and cam are the most important part of any motor i plan on rebuilding whatever i get but i wonder since aluminum expands at a differnet rate than steel or iron what affect does this have on a motor, and can you boost iron heads more with nitrous or is it about the same strength?
There's a thread or two with guys building big blocks right now.. I'd say start by reading what they are doing (or need to do) and learn from their experience(s). 500 HP isn't real hard to do with the right parts and machining.. and aluminum heads will allow you to raise your compression a point or two. And they can handle a good bit of NOS.... what's the car it'll go in?
check out this thread.. should have some good info that you're going to need to at least consider! And check out our Engine Forum..
honestly im not shure what it is going to go in yet im going to try and build the motor this summer then i will look for a vehicle that catches my eye probably just a unpainted rolling chassi il drop it in and then paint it flat black lol i just want to build a budget motor and hot rod to have some fun with if possible and i love turning a wrench so its a fun exuse to learn how to build a motor. whatever i do i definatly want nitrous, just for when you need it haha
do you think this goal can be achived if i could get the motor for 300 or less with a budget of 2400 or less
i built many bbc and stroked the bbc 454 deck 9.800 stock block to about max 512CID and in the 10.200 tall deck 427 beer truck stock Gm block to 540CID .ford 429/460 10.320 deck is only one deck and is a tall wide engine so may want to check fitment of what body your putting it in .it is not hard to build a 429/460 to 572 is max with a short fill of block rock. building with a stock block and a 4.500bore and 4.500 stroke any one of these engine with only 2400 budget will be very hard .you will have to fined some very good deals some used parts and good deals may not be so great after you get the bill from the machine shop
What no fighting over which is better? Detante at last! :) FWIW both are nice engines, Pat and Jerry and a few others here can offer help in whatever decission you make, I/m happy with my 460.
I can offer this.. building a 500 hp motor is achievable but then you need to consider a chassis that can survive and use that horsepower! And more important stop that horsepower!!
The more performance you want to achieve, the more it'll cost. Since you have no clear set goals yet. I'd suggest doing a "more vanilla" overhaul so you can still have your fun and since you're set on a big block you can still make lots of torque/hp to get your blood flowing.
It is that old saying, Speed costs money, how fast can you afford to go???
To get into the power levels you're wanting, and especially running nitrous you're going to need the services of a good machine shop for the block and bottom end. And like Mike says, dropping a built big block into a frame that's not built for the power is a death wish. If you go into the process without a plan you're going to spend twice as much chasing rabbit trails and rework, IMO.
We bracket raced and street "played" bbf's for a lot of years. A good 460 block (it it's and older DOVE block, it's good). Used stock cast cranks in some, only went forged on the strokers. Get the compression right at 10.5 to 1 for the street, 13:1 if you want to run E-85, quality pistons and rods (not Chinese crap), balance the snot out of everything. My last street engine was a 501", .030" overbore, Crower crank, Manley rods, Wiseco pistons, Comp solid roller cam, roller rockers and box stock Edelbrock RPM heads, single plane intake, 1050 Dominanator carb on E-85. MSD ignition. Did 500 torque and horse on the chassis dyno. Been freshened a couple times, and ready for it's 5th summer on the streets. Can't do that particular engine for $2400 (about double that if you shop good). A stock crank 460 works fine, keep the revs out of it, spend your money on heads and valvetrain!!!!!
what engine is better ....ford is more money on cost of parts still need as many parts as a chevy bbc . but rods ,rod bearings.rocker arms . are big block chevy on Ford strokers . after market ford heads use bbc port lay out for headers. the ford as some things i do not like that can not be fixed easly .the bbc not so much but the chevy other then it has smaller bore centers . and smaller oil pan rails were you will be working on the chevy block to get a big crank in one. bore limit on stock block chevy bore limit is 4.350to4.375 .on some stock blocks. there is many things the ford guys will jump all over the chevy and the same with the chevy guys .i as a engine builder i just need to know the weak parts of both engines and not much of the brand loyalty B.S
Which is better??? Neither. They're both outdated designs. Save up your bucks and get a 5.0 Coyote, then study hard on electronic controls and data acquisition!!!! Go fast on the street with affordable mpg and reliability!
Well since I don't have a chasi should I just rebuild whatever I get and put just forged internals aluminum heads and a good street cam, that way I can learn joe to do it and when it goes il bore it out I 500+ cubes and then go for performance, I mean no matter what I do with it it will still be faster than my tacoma ahahahha
There is some sense in that approach. But while you're looking for the target of your money.. keep your eyes open for the end result of your rebuild. Also, if you can score a deal on forged components, cool! But, I wouldn't make it a prioirity as your project may never move forward as you'll constantly be saving coin to buy parts. Like I said earlier, just some things to consider, make a plan of what you want to do.
There's sooooooooo much more that goes into building a project then just the engine. I like to start with a mockup block of the engine and trans I eventually will be running and build the car around it. It's never made a lot of sense to me to do the engine build first, then let it just sit around gathering dirt and debris while the rest of the project is done.....
well start looking at prices forged crank in 4340 steel 460 is $1000. my cost. for over seas crank USA steel is much more . cast steel is $400. rods $400.and up. Pistons forged 600. Bbc crank will be less about $450 to$700. for 4340 over sea.s crank but the 454 or 427 tall deck block cores cost more money then 429/460 .
Yea that's what il do I won't worry about serious mods until I have it in a chasi and drive train that Ik can handle the power I will just rebuild it with the best parts I can find at the time in my price range and by rebuilding it that way I could learn about it then I will have a fresh motor to drop in when I'm ready and so il be ready to mod it then
Dave made some excellent points about a 5.0 litre engine, you can get the same horses for less gas money, and have a programable engine, that is much more versatile amnd works in a much more modern era. Rebuilding the engine shouldn't be much different, just the fuel injection and computerized parts at the end. A 5.0 ltr. or 302 will fit a lot easier into many different engine bays, and be much lighter, freeing the need for more horsepower to move a heavier engine. Heck a chevy z series engine works great too, and is probably even cheaper to play with! And find info on!
Even better buy a used Suburu WRX and just play with engine mods. They are pretty remarkable as they are in stock form! The turbo charged engine models supposedly do 160mph in stock form!
No problem dave I thought 5lt. was 302 ci? I was reffering to the modern version.
It is the same Steve.. But to separate them, they call the new one the Coyote. Overhead cams, no pushrods..
There is no doubt new engines are remarkable in their ability to put out axing power to weight ratios. But being 17 a new fast car is out of the question because of insurance,that is why I want to go with a old motor an vehicle so that I can use collectors insurance lol and not get screwed lol so I'm going to just use this motor build as a learning experience so that way in the feature when I have enough cash hopfuly someday I will be able to have a 700 hp car someday ..... But for now a 400-500 hp car or truck would be amazing lol any way I slice it it's Gona be faster than my tacoma hahaha
Then keep your eyes open for things like this... 429 Big Block motor
that s to much to spend on a engine if you going to throw evey thing out if your going stroker . that may be a hell of a deal from a number engine if needed but you do not need that and a 429 .would be better to start with the most bang for the buck a 454 seen them running for less with a 400 trans that abit better then c6 but all you really need is a set of good head casting and a good block every thing every well could be worn out your talking about engine that seen some time on them some over 30years just a rering and valve job very well may not happen
I'm qurious if I want to rebuild a block do I need to have if bored or honed out? Or if it's a low mile block could I just rebuild it? And Ik prices vary but what would the cost be to bore the block and polish and port the heads?
That was merely an example! The OP needs to decide a direction and a set of goals for the project. Most everyone daydreams of building a monster cubic inch with huge horsepower, but it isn't practicle!
But you can find a large cubic inch motor, freshen it up and add some select hi performance parts and still have yourself a good time with reliability!
Find a big block with transmission saves you from searching for parts later sometimes. Just another opinion!
He is going to have a considerable amount invested in just the core engine-----------bigblockchev 454 are getting scarce at decent prices---we buy many CORE blocks, but they are just that--cores--we then need not only ALL the performance part/components, but also all the bolts, oil pans, front covers, cam retainer plates, etc,etc,etc
A 460 ford/Lincoln complete might be much easier to find complete and a 460 would be a 4V type engine with a excellent rodlength/stroke ratio and bore/stroke---also pretty good flowing heads--a 429 2V like in that CL add I wouldn't haul home except for the trans, alternator, etc, etc-------
alot of RV i been told get totaled out as they do not make parts for very long and costly so they go threw auction some what cheap many do not have many mile.s on them so you get every thing lets say a 454 many are 4four bolt mains not that you need that so if lucky it would be only a hone and polished the crank and rebuild with a flat top or small dome if it had 049 or 781 heads can be reworked and cam intake . headers 500 hp EZ . as for the big stroker engine deal well many may not need them .but many want them i built more 489/496 then 454 .cost is the same and i sell more bigger engines 489/496 then a 454 thats 060 over 468 if you use cast parts same build price as a 454 about the same for the fords. to bad you do not live around here i could used a hand at my shop you sound like you want to learn that very rare nowdays .as for cheap builds i did many of them .i have core 454s that i could short block for a fair price . new bore .rebuilt truck rods Arp bolts new hypper flat tops speed pro . cast crank GM or eagle .but would be almost 2000. of you 2300.budget it would be a 454 bored over .030 or .060 for $300 more it can be a 489.or496
YESS I AM EXTREMELY EAGER TO LEARN i have a few great guys around here who told me they would help me this summer with whatever i cant figure out and i will help them on their summer projects. the main reason i want to do this is to learn for a day when i can build my hot rod. but if i come into the issue of finding parts or seeking advice may i contact you one here? i dont mind putting more than 2400 in this build, it will just take a bit longer but i would rather do it right the first time, and if im lucky when im done i will have a wild motor ready to go but whatever i get i will post pictures and mark my progress on here, from takedown to paint i will do my best to post it all.
Pat-----------just picked up a Kwik way FWS2 boring bar to use from surface plate on bell housing mount to rough bore the billet splayed bolt caps before align honing----------got a friend with a shop who does that on a lot of industrial type blocks so I'm going to try it on these caps/blocks---I'll let ya know how it goes---when it gets warmer so I can work----
DMC tech /sunnen sold a upright line boring bar that center on the bell sunnen rep told me they did not sell many but did not takeup much space . i done many line bore jobs with the tobin arp T/A 14flat top with the lacey willams cutter bit it can do a very nice finish. the T/A set up mic only reads .0005 so getting under that .what i done many times .you can not have any one in the shop and you must become one with the mic there not much feel with the mic i blue it so i know were i at by the mark the cutter mark
I have a '75 460 on a stand that I'm not going to use. Needs new bearings and a new timing cover + new front engine drive, as the old system is for a lincoln and is clunky. I have all the old parts tho.. Also have a C6 Automatic to fit it, or a bellhousing for a 400 that would fit a 3/4spd if you used a 390 flywheel.. I put a new oil pump and pickup in it, as well as an OEM Ford Racing Mustang conversion oilpan ( pickup too )... I'd let everything I've got for it go for $600. I spent a ton more than that collecting the parts, but I'm never going to use it. I was going to build a 501 stroker and decided it was too much engine for the chassis I was putting it in..
If you want the scratch built rat project it was supposed to be for, I can let everything go for $1,500. I don't have time to work on it anymore. If your from Lake George NY, than I'm only a couple hours away in the Catskills.