I need a cyl head print for a 302. my casting number is a d08e head, but any 302 head will basicly work. I mainly just need the exhaust face.
Thanks,
Dave Henderlong
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I need a cyl head print for a 302. my casting number is a d08e head, but any 302 head will basicly work. I mainly just need the exhaust face.
Thanks,
Dave Henderlong
just what in the he double hockey sticks are you asking for ....ted
any small block ford exhaust gasket will give you the pattern layout if that`s what you mean ( 289 /302 /351 windsor ..
302. its a small block ford engine. commonly known as the old 5.0l. My cylinder head casting numbers are d08e. Those are my heads for my 302ci.
I need an exhaust port face print, meaning the exact dimentions of an exhaust manifold flange that will fit on the 302ci.
Im trying to find the print of the head so i can make an exhaust flange that will mount up to my d08e cylinder head.
I'v been trying to trace the gasket on a piece of paper, but i need more acuate dimentions.
So if you have any information on the blueprints, please post it.
I think most everyone here understands that a 302 and 5.0L are the same engine, and I don't have engineering drawings of the SBF 302/5.0L heads, but I chased header flanges through a lot of sources and ended up buying a pair from Stainless Headers Manufacturing, Inc out of MN - 3/8" thick and precise fit stock ports for $74 delivered ($29.95 each and $13 shipping March 2010) http://www.stainlessheaders.com/flanges He has flanges for all heads, either stainless or mild steel, and he knows his business. Headers by Ed is another place that really knows their heads - http://www.headersbyed.com/ Both Summit & Jegs also have flanges, bare or stubs, with prices ranging from <$50 to $150. Hard to believe you can make a set cheaper than you can buy them today, but I may not understand what you're doing.:confused::confused::confused:
You can go to the site of Schoenfeld headers and download about any header flange spec you might want and/or buy a gasket to copy from several aftermarket heads/bolt patterns
thanks Louey, I had some of the prints around here but no way to upload them so just mentioned that Schoenfeld had them. I usually get the gaskets and mild steel flanges from them , modify the flanges to fit our heads and send the prints and gaskets/flanges to Stainless Headers in MN to have the flanges made from Stainless Steel .
I agree with the guys. Unless you have the equipment to cut those flanges yourself buy ones from one of the vendors who have them on the shelf. 289-302-351 header flanges are a dime a dozen, no magic whatsoever, so why reinvent the wheel?
Don
THANK YOU Louey!. you have no idea how long i have been trying to find these.BUT....
i still need a location for the mounting stud holes (to hold the flange to the head). These are not givin. and they look off centerd from the port holes. How do i find this?
I have the right tools to cut these out. I can make them cheaper that 75 bucks or whatever
Depending on the price of steel i can basicly make the flange for around 5 cents a pound.
This flange will then be tig welded to a set of custom flared pipes. I'l try to keep you guys updated.
And by reinventing the wheel, if it is not perfect there is stll room for inprovment :)
2.00/2.38?????are the bolt spacings and they are in a straight line!!!
if these don't supply you with the info you need you can go to their site and download more---or buy a gasket!!!!!
We seem to have a basic mis-communication here, or at least I am very confused. This flange is a part of the header, and it bolts to the machined head surface with the eight header bolts adjacent to each exhaust port, into the 3/8x16 threaded holes in the head. Your "custom flared pipes" weld directly into the oblong holes in the header flange, unless you buy flanges that already have stubouts - then your primary pipes weld to the stubs instead.
The only thing I could see that might be different is if you have a set of the SVO oval port heads, which have the bolt holes at an angle because there's not enough meat at the sides. If you have those heads then your header flanges are drilled in that pattern vs the straight line shown in the drawing Louey posted. Picture of the SVO is attached. Is this what you have??
Dang - all you needed was a piece of poster paper from Wally World (35 cents) and a ball pein hammer that has a good rounded head - and made the same way you make that water outlet or differential gasket at 9:00 PM on a Saturday night. Those Ford exhaust gaskets - none, regardless of brand are a very good fit except those expensive Earl's - or so I found out when I used the GT40 heads on the '31
:LOL:Amen, brother!!:LOL: And as I have learned, some of the aftermarket aluminum heads take some liberties with their castings, making sealing things up a bit of a challenge sometimes. If you're going to spend valuable time making flanges from scratch I would make them to exactly match the heads you are holding, not to match somebody's dimension drawing. At the very least you need to verify every dimension against your heads, IMO.
Sorry about the mis communication. The only thing im confused on is the bolt hole center location compared to the port hole center. These must be exact because if they are off then, bolts, ports, and everything could be not lined up correctly.
I am having a hard time finding this.
I think that the reason that you are having trouble finding the tapped hole location relative to the port is that it is not an exact dimension.....the ports are cast and the header bolt hole locations are machined when the head is clamped against some reference surface...usually pads at the ends or head bolt surfaces that were machined in the first operation. The casting cores are not in a terribly precise location....so things vary among heads.
I think the suggestion of taking your heads and doning a real measurement on them is the best if you want precision......OR you could make your plates and hand fit them to your heads.
mike in tucson
if they are made in the prosses that you describe, than any aftermarket header that you buy will not fit on any head, because it is not "in a terribly precise location".
The factories MUST have some talerance for the casting.
Well my plan is to make the flange, then make tools (inside and outside die/madrel) to flare the pipe to a more oval shape. and directly match the port size. (or bigger).
The pipe will then slide into the flang then be tig welded on the inside, (head side).
Any comments?
First of all, if you take a stock factory exhaust manifold and match it to the head, you will be shocked at how far it can be off......1/8" is not uncommon. Some exhausts are made
bigger all around the port on purpose so there is a drop off going into the exhaust.
Headers are'nt much better; I've had to move the header bolt holes by almost 1/4" on some header models.....if I didnt, the flow would be terrible at the junction.
The best way to start the process is to find or make a gasket that matches your head....check both heads to see if they are the same. Take that new gasket/template and put it on your exhaust and see where you fall......then, make your new flanges from your template so they fit.....
What you are describing as to your fabrication of headers is essentially what the header guys do.
From my discussions with the custom header guys and my experience on one set of headers, the flanges you buy have the ports sized to match the OD of your prescribed primary tube. For a 302 the "normal" is 1 5/8" primaries and the tubing is a controlled OD which gives you a circumfurence of 5.11" so the port perimeter will be about 5.15" or so. When you form your tube to fit and tap it into place you'll get nearly a zero gap fit. Header guys I talked to said to weld on the outside, leaving the machined surface of the header flange unmolested, but to never weld both sides of the flange.
Sounds like you already know exactly what you want to do, and that you either own or have access to some pretty sophisticated equipment. Not many people can afford to spend time making things like custom header flanges and make it pay off so you are in an enviable position. Good luck with your header build. I'd love to see pictures of your process as you move forward.
I think he is talking about the relation ship of the mounting bolts to the 1.9" dim.. They are not centered to the port. The ball pein and poster board is a good idea. Henderlong are you going to program a digital pattern into a water jet or laser?
Yeah, sfort I agree. I would put a bolt in the front & rear mounting holes on the head, run a good straight edge across the top & bottom of the bolt measuring to the respective port edges. Those measurements plus the bolt OD, all measured with a dial caliper will give him the offset within 0.001" or closer. I'd rather have the measurements from my head than the dimension from somebody's drawing.
From someone who's fabricated many sets of SBF headers, I have to say I think you're making the process way too difficult.....
As others mentioned, use the gasket that most closely matches your exhaust port opening, then grind the od of the flange to match... I usually by a header kit, with flanges, tubes, and collectors from Speedway. Once I get the flanges to match the ports, it's a simple matter of dingin' the round tubes to an oval shape on the end with a body hammer and some solid round stock with the correct radius held in the vice.
Unless you're tuning for one or two horse on the dyno, don't really see where anything more exotic would be required.....and if you are looking for the absolute best horsepower, then you've got the wrong set of heads anyway...JMO
Hha, ya i know these heads are not the greatest....
I used a cmm machine to answer my own question.
If you were to draw a line down the center of the bolts, the port ends 18.5608mm in one direction, and 12.9901mm in the other. So i took a persentage of that and apllied it to a 1.8inch (h) x 1.32inch (w) port on the flange
I will post a picture once i finish the design
idk if i want to use a ball pean hammer to shape the tube. I sorta want to flare it out useing a press and some custom tools. This would be better for production if i wanted.
I have axcess to a 3 axis cnc machine at school. All i have to do is build it on CAD and convert it to a txt doc. Then i take it over to the cnc.
However i first want to mill it out of wood, to ensure that it fits correctly. I will of course use a wood cnc mill for this, not a metal one.
Just give me a few hours to make a mock up design.
STAY TUNED
K heres my mock up. Dimentions are exact. Im not sure how i want the outside too look yet?
Like i said before. the pipe will be flared so that the outside diameter fits snugly inside the flange.
I am not sure what kind of machine it is, but there is a place in Tampa where you can take metal up to about a inch thick and they can cut that kind of stuff out for you.
The only reason I know about it is there is a fuel tanker repair shop in front of it and the guys in there were telling me about it on day. Not sure if it's a laser type machine or some type of dye cutting machine they use though. But it is good to know it is there, if ever needed though.
Kurt
The bottom edge is only important for plug clearance, and then mainly for angled plugs which can be a pain with some headers. If you're making them out of wood first you can check plug clearance and tweak if necessary, right? Telling us that you're a student with access to the school tools and the blessings of your professors/shop manager brings some sanity to this thread, at least for me. It's a great project given your situation :D
PS - on the welding I looked at Don's thread http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/sho...threadid=46852 and Hedman does theirs the other way, letting tubes protrude on the head side, welding a solid bead and them machining that flat. You would at least need a belt sander large enough to do all four ports at once, if not a mill to keep it flat I would think. That keeps the front side cleaner and gives a little more room for header bolts on the flange.
Yes, i def like the idea of welding on the inside (head side), then machining it down. Im not sure if i want to write a program to machine the welds down, or just put it in a vise, and use the bridgeport?
Yes, wood will be used to double check everything. plug clearence is a must, but shouldnt be a problem.
And im pretty sure i dont need to go all the way to tampa to cut this thing out. ha i live in michigan. allitle far? I dont need a lazer. a simple 3 axis machine should work dandy.
Ha idk about sanity... i'm pretty much doing this project on my own. I'm just using their tools ha. i have never done anything this big before. however im switching on and off with this and rebuilding a c4 trans that just blew out in my truck.
I'l try to finish up some tools to flare the pipe tonight, and u guys can tell me your thoughts on that.
So Henderlong, are you in school now in Michigan or do you just have access to a machine shop? Just curious...
I have no clue what c4 rebuild kit i should get. I'v never done a trans before.
Ya im a seinor in hs. I took independent study with my english teacher (only teacher available) and i just pick my project, design it, build it, and write about what i do each day.
I also had to write a ten page paper on manifolds vs. headers if you wanna look that over too... it was a real pain, and the teacher gave me a d+ on it, but a chance to rewrite it. So that is a big grade, so im adding stuff in as i go.
i think your`e being over precise with measurements that can be quite loose .. a 3/8ths bolt will easily go thru a 7/16ths hole
We have a small cnc router (wood), a bridgeport (havnt used yet), a small leathe, jigsaw, bandsaw, mig welder, and other basic tools.
But i duel enroll in a tech center, so i spend three hours at hs (ap calc, american lit, and indepent study), then i go over to the tech center for another 2.5 hours or so. - which we have a small machine shop, multiple welders, plazma cutter, torches, and other cool tools including car lifts.
Don't worry im not one of those spoiled rich kids
haha over precise? I have to do both sides, 8 ports. all holes must lines up pretty dang close. If i plan to ever sell these- how would i douplicate my messurements and procedures if im not as acurate as possible? Plus the overall aperaence must look good, and i plan on showing my boss this when im done, and hopfuly working a better position.
That's all well and good, precision is a much overlooked facet of building... But if you're doing this for production heads (and some of the offshore aftermarket knockoff junk) you'll need your bolt holes to be much less then precise to allow for casting shift, poor quality control, and other boo-boo's that make it necessary to adjust the flange to align with the ports, sometimes to the point of having to cut the flange between ports, move the tube around to "find" the port, then reconnect!!!!! Precision is good, but adjustability has got to be a consideration, too!
Have any of you heared of transfer screws. Transfer screws are hardened set screws with a point. Thread them into the tapped hole with a special tool place the header flange stock over the bolt pattern. Hit the flange with a hammer. You now have the desired bolt pattern. Drill a starter hole for the port then die grind to to match the cylinder head. The problem with this type of precision is that the dimensions change with temperature. Headers can get cherry red and the cylinder head doesen't get nearly that hot. The cylinder head has greater mass than the headers so they change temperature at different rates. The holes in the exhaust manifold or header flange are large to allow for this. If you are in school and have access to fancy tools ask your instructor about an inspection machine or ask how to take measurements using your milling machine.
herlong must of never used a set of header flange s from any u weld kits ? well most are junk .. i made my own up out of 3/8 cold roll and used the header gasket for lay out i made many as i did build headers for some time. lay them up on the mill stack two sets up at i time use a hole saw and ruffing mill to do the job . i buy them now for the sbc as a guy i know cuts them on a cnc .there are now many that sell just flanges so not a money maker
Any more just the cost of metal to do one set will be more $ than purchasing a set from Stainless Headers in MN. Now if a person was going to do 500 sets-----