Fitting Wilwood RPV to 3/8" flared line

A long while back I ordered the majority of my brake parts/fittings from Speedway and at the time the guys knowledge was a life saver to me, but now it might be closer to a nightmare. The first issue is he gave me two T fittings, one to run the front lines and another for a pressure brake switch. Both have an NPT center which of course leaks. I had an extra T fitting with a rear end bracket with all flared ends so i cut off the bracket and used the T in the front - no leaks so now I need another for the brake switch I believe.

The bigger problem is I have a Wilwood residual pressure valve with 1/8" NPT ends with an adapter 1/8 NPT to 3/8 -24 IF, but what I am seeing now is that will not work. How do I use a RPV with 3/8" flared lines?? Do they make flared RPV valves?

So on top of brake fluid leaks all weekend I wasn't paying attention and completely stripped out the threads for my rubber hose into my caliper...not a good weekend :o

Fordcoupe, I am in the process of re-plumbing all of the hard brake lines on my truck. I converted it from a swing pedal brake firewall mounted booster and cylinder to a thru the floor master and clutch master cylinder. When I ordered my master cylinder and clutch master cylinder mount it came with residual valves for both the front and the rear brakes. A 2lb valve for the rear and a 10lb residual valve for the front, both of these valves are in fact "Inverted Flare" so they do make them.

If you need any pic's are the name of the supplier let me know. I am sure that you will find residual valves that take flared fittings as I have two of them.

Roland

Yes sir, the brand and or supplier would be helpful.

It seems Speedway sold me at least over $60 in fittings and valves that I don't need. I can't be too mad because I went in fairly blind, but when I am on the phone with tech, tell him what I am doing and he makes my list I don't expect such obvious errors from a tech at a respected company. I assume these RPVs with NPT ends are for AN lines? how exactly do they not leak for their intended purpose?

one more question. The proportioning valve is also NPT but it came with adapter fittings in it with a red sealer. It does not leak, but is this ok or do I need a new proportioning valve too?

Ford coupe, You know I am going to go out to the shop and take some pictures for you. All of this stuff is setting on the bench as I am installing it in the morning, so it will be easy to get some shots. I also have the proportioning valve there as well. It does have fittings screwed into it and they ( the fittings) are inverted flare, or should I say accept inverted flare fittings. I will get a shot of it as well.

Check back in a hour or so and the pictures should be up.

Roland

Did you put teflon tape or some kind of tread sealer on your (NPT) pipe fittings. Also, AN flares are at a different angle then conventional double flares. If you aren't aware, AN fittings are 37 degrees and regular conventional double flares are 45 degrees. Good luck.

Keith

OK Coupe lets see if I can post these pictures in such a way as to makes a little sense.

This 1st one is of the proportioning valve and the pressure valves.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/198983...13__Small_.jpg

This one is of the Proportioning valve at an angle to show that it is for inverted flared fittings. The fittings screwed into the valve itself have some type of epoxy sealer on them. It's clear in color but look close.My guess is that the valve itself is NPT and then the "sealed" fittings getting it to inverted flare.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/198983...02__Small_.jpg

Same valve other side....

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/198983...05__Small_.jpg

Finally this shot shows the residual valve and its end, it is for an inverted flare.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/198983...10__Small_.jpg


Hope this helps some, heres a link to the company were I got all of this stuff hope they can help if you need it.

http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/compa...r_systems.html


Roland

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blwn31

Did you put teflon tape or some kind of tread sealer on your (NPT) pipe fittings. Also, AN flares are at a different angle then conventional double flares. If you aren't aware, AN fittings are 37 degrees and regular conventional double flares are 45 degrees. Good luck.

Keith

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31, I've got a question for you. is it OK to use teflon tape on brake fittings? The reason I ask is the fittings on the valve I showed have some sort of epoxy "looking" stuff it would seem that teflon tape would be easier. I simply dont know if its cool to use it in the brake system.

Roland

I am using all AN and NPT fitting. I have always used Teflon tape or some kind of liquid thread sealer on my NPT fittings. I have never had a leak.

Keith

Using teflon tape is fine for straight threads, but you want to use a liquid teflon on any tapered threads. I don't like using teflon tape on anything except plumbing under the sink, but that's me.
If you use tape on tapered threads the chance of turning the part too far into the hole can result in a crack.

As far as leaks, I posted this a couple weeks ago as I had a caliper leak: http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45964

Now, the question as to why 3/8" line? Also, are those lines double flared if regular steel brake tube. If they are SS, you really can't do a double flare without some really expensive tools and even then it should be a specially softened stainless. I purchased my entire 3/16" SS brake line and AN fittings from Inline Tube (http://www.inlinetube.com/) and of course got a few pieces that I didn't use. I also had to purchase the 37* flaring tool for the AN fittings. The Wilwood proprtioning and RPV's are from Speedway.

Using the large diameter stuff, while it will work, just adds a mass of extra fittings stacked up to adapt to the 1/8-3/16 brake cylinders/calipers, other line fittings and the prop and RPV's thus opening yourself to those pesky drips. My problem was easily cured after asking my question - it was a speck of dirt, but to date that was the only drip on the entire system.

I think he surely must be confused about the 3/8 tube---maybe he means that he needs a 3/8 wrench on the fitting

Well I am torn here because my proportioning valve came with sealed flared to NPT adapters and it works fine so I don't know if I should just use sealer on my residual pressure valves or get flared ones like I probably should have. Is just sealing NPT threads with liquid sealer perfectly acceptable or should I pay $50 bucks for more RPVs? :whacked:. Hombre- thanks a lot for taking those pictures that helps.

31- so the wilwood rpv's when used with AN fittings just use sealer? If it works like that for AN I will probably just seal what I have.

sunset- it sounds like there is enough hatred for the tape that I will stear clear of it. thanks

Dave- sorry, I meant 3/16" lines...I just had 3/8" nuts on the brain from wrenching all day. Jerry you were correct.

thanks everyone!

Plumbing gets complicated---NPT, AN, inverted flare, double flare,37*, 45*, compression, etc

One of the best tips I give people is to use coat hangers to mock up for lines before bending them

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Plumbing gets complicated---NPT, AN, inverted flare, double flare,37*, 45*, compression, etc

One of the best tips I give people is to use coat hangers to mock up for lines before bending them

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Coat hangers work well, but with the price of the standard 3/16" so low that I just make up the entire system without flares. I think for my '31 the cost of the dummy system added $20-$25 to a multi thousand dollar car:D.

And the mish-mash of fittings on a street rod - that could make a saint swear:CRY:

My Wilwood Residual Pressure Valves didn't have any fittings in them when I bought them, since I am using AN fittings I bought an 1/8 NPT to -3 AN adapter. Put some thread sealer on the NPT side and screwed in into the RPV. I also purchased everything from Inline Tube like Dave did.

Keith

Well if the only way to use these wilwood rpv's with AN fittings is to use sealer then that's good enough for me with my inverted flares. I'm tired of spending so if I can avoid $50 bucks on more residual pressure valves I will. Now the question is exactly what kind of sealer we are talking about here. Just any tube of "thread sealant"? any certain temperature rating or purpose exactly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35fordcoupe

Well if the only way to use these wilwood rpv's with AN fittings is to use sealer then that's good enough for me with my inverted flares. I'm tired of spending so if I can avoid $50 bucks on more residual pressure valves I will. Now the question is exactly what kind of sealer we are talking about here. Just any tube of "thread sealant"? any certain temperature rating or purpose exactly?

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You need adapter fittings - the Wilwood RPV's are NPT, not AN. While you can probably get the AN's started, they will never seal permanently and sealant is not the best way. It's a last resort on like fittings.

http://www.anplumbing.com/shop/index...op=&dept=Steel

Lots of bits and pieces shown here - and an easy site to navigate. A few bucks more on the right brake line fittings can save lives - and not a place I would scrimp.

I hear what you are saying Dave and I will not be sacrafising safety to save a few bucks, but I think you might be misunderstanding what I have exactly. I have 3/16 standard double flared lines with the adapter below into the npt wilwood rpv. Right now it leaks, but with a little sealant, which as I understand it is accepable, it should be fine. Does that sound ok?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Straig...ters,6463.html

You say it leaks, is the pipe thread leaking or the inverted flare connection?I want to get this straight.

You have Wilwood Residual Pressure Valves. The RPV's should have female 1/8" pipe thread. You will need adapters to tread into the RPV ends, they will have to be male 1/8" pipe to 3/16" @ 45 degrees inverted flare, since you are using 3/16 double flare, which I see you have. I have used teflon tape on my pipe threads with absolutely no problem and I know many other rodders that have done the same. There are several types of liquid (paste) types on the market, APR, makes one (my preference), can also get pipe thread sealant at your local hardware store or big box stores too. You do not want to put any sealer of any kind on the flare end fitting, they should seal by the connection alone. Hope I cleared up any confusion we may have caused.

Keith

You are confusing the fittings here i'm afraid, The Willwood valves are 1/8" NPT, you need either a 1/8" NPT to -3AN adaptor which uses a female tube nut and sleeve or you use a 1/8" NPT to 3/8" UNF Female adaptor which uses a 3/8" UNF Male tube nut, No sealer is needed although the 1/8" NPT to 3/8" UNF Female adaptor usually come with red sealer already on them.


1/8" NPT to -3AN adaptor

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...ff/adaptor.jpg

Use this tube nut & sleeve

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...eandsleeve.jpg


1/8" NPT to 3/8" UNF Female adaptor

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...ifmadaptor.jpg

Use this 3/8" UNF male tube nut

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h2...aletubenut.jpg

Yes but only put the sealer on the thread a few threads in, that way you won't get sealer in the brake system. Do not put sealer on the first few threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35fordcoupe

I hear what you are saying Dave and I will not be sacrafising safety to save a few bucks, but I think you might be misunderstanding what I have exactly. I have 3/16 standard double flared lines with the adapter below into the npt wilwood rpv. Right now it leaks, but with a little sealant, which as I understand it is accepable, it should be fine. Does that sound ok?

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Straig...ters,6463.html

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Steve - you took the words right off of my fingertips (both fingers:LOL:). Thanks!!

I hope he gets it.

Keith

I do believe that I get it. The pipe thread is leaking, 31 and what you say is exaclty what I have minus the sealer.

Steve- I have the "3/8" UNF male tube nut" into the "1/8" NPT to 3/8" UNF Female adaptor" into the residual pressure valve which is 1/8" NPT and I will put a little sealer a few threads in, but you say sealer is not necessary? All four of my adapter to rpv connections leak. I think I got it a couple posts ago because it seems to be exactly what I have, but I appreciate everyone taking me through this. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35fordcoupe

I do believe that I get it. The pipe thread is leaking, 31 and what you say is exaclty what I have minus the sealer.

Steve- I have the "3/8" UNF male tube nut" into the "1/8" NPT to 3/8" UNF Female adaptor" into the residual pressure valve which is 1/8" NPT and I will put a little sealer a few threads in, but you say sealer is not necessary? All four of my adapter to rpv connections leak. I think I got it a couple posts ago because it seems to be exactly what I have, but I appreciate everyone taking me through this. :)

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Oh well - just make sure you give us an update with the 'fix':whacked:. These 'nigglers' are fun to talk through and most of us really like to spend other folks money as well.:LOL:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hombre259

Fordcoupe, I am in the process of re-plumbing all of the hard brake lines on my truck. I converted it from a swing pedal brake firewall mounted booster and cylinder to a thru the floor master and clutch master cylinder. When I ordered my master cylinder and clutch master cylinder mount it came with residual valves for both the front and the rear brakes. A 2lb valve for the rear and a 10lb residual valve for the front, both of these valves are in fact "Inverted Flare" so they do make them.

If you need any pic's are the name of the supplier let me know. I am sure that you will find residual valves that take flared fittings as I have two of them.

Roland

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The 10 pound is for the rear, the two pound for the front - you got it backwards.

well I guess I don't get it then or I am not explaining what I have well enough, but from what I can tell what I have is Steve's second option. Dave- I think you have me wrong here. I came here for help and appreciate what I am getting, but if I am not understanding quick enough I appologize..

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/z...g/IMG_2815.jpg

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/z...g/IMG_2817.jpg

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/z...g/IMG_2816.jpg

I think you may need to tighten them more, According to the book NPT are self sealing, Most i do are self sealing but occasionally i get one that needs a touch of sealer. I never use the tape type as the paste is so much better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35fordcoupe

I do believe that I get it. The pipe thread is leaking, 31 and what you say is exaclty what I have minus the sealer.

Steve- I have the "3/8" UNF male tube nut" into the "1/8" NPT to 3/8" UNF Female adaptor" into the residual pressure valve which is 1/8" NPT and I will put a little sealer a few threads in, but you say sealer is not necessary? All four of my adapter to rpv connections leak. I think I got it a couple posts ago because it seems to be exactly what I have, but I appreciate everyone taking me through this. :)

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You have it right in these pics, next double flare the pipe and usea male 3/8" UNF tube nut and your there.

While we are talking flares in my opinion all brake lines should be double flared including stainless line, I believe its actually illegal here in the UK to single flare a brake line.
Single flares have a habit of cracking behind the flare where the double flares are much stronger due to the twin wall effect from double flaring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 35fordcoupe

well I guess I don't get it then or I am not explaining what I have well enough, but from what I can tell what I have is Steve's second option. Dave- I think you have me wrong here. I came here for help and appreciate what I am getting, but if I am not understanding quick enough I appologize..

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/z...g/IMG_2815.jpg

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/z...g/IMG_2817.jpg

http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/z...g/IMG_2816.jpg

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Well spotted Paul, I hadn't noticed that :o

Just confirm 2lb for discs 10lb for drums.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paul274854

The 10 pound is for the rear, the two pound for the front - you got it backwards.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by roadster32

Well spotted Paul, I hadn't noticed that :o

Just confirm 2lb for discs 10lb for drums.

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Regardless where the discs are - that line gets 2lb RPV's. On mine, it's 2lb front AND rear with the 4 wheel discs.

....are we having fun yet:LOL:??? Confused anyone:whacked:???

I tightend the adapters into the rpv's off the car then tightend it on to the line so I thought everything was tight, but maybe trying to tighten the line I loosened the adapter. I'll try to snug everything up again with a little sealer for good measure. Since all my npt connections leaked I'm hoping the sealer helps.

Thanks everyone.

About the residual valves-----most master cylinders have them and you don't need them in line

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

About the residual valves-----most master cylinders have them and you don't need them in line

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Jerry- when the MC is below the floor, the recommendation (Wilwood's) is to use separate RPV's in each line. You will then need to pull any existing in the MC. I went through that exercise on a previous car with crappy brakes until I did that - afterwards the brakes were great.

usually when you put the master under the floor it gets turned around and plumbed back to rear front to front-----if you do that and don't remove the master cylinder valves you have mismatched componetry and crappy brakes--removing the m/c valves and putting in the inline units fixes that problem but gives you 4 more places for a leak and 2 addional parts to fail.