Thread: EFI Options

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Back to basics, I have a 650 holley, performer intake, on a 327, got it running so sweet. Is a EFI system really going to give me anything for $2,000+? Or is it just the next thing people have to have? Seems like a lot of bucks and may not be worth it. (I drive the equivlent of coast to coast twice each year.) Opinions?

Originally Posted by Scooting

Back to basics, I have a 650 holley, performer intake, on a 327, got it running so sweet. Is a EFI system really going to give me anything for $2,000+? Or is it just the next thing people have to have? Seems like a lot of bucks and may not be worth it. (I drive the equivlent of coast to coast twice each year.) Opinions?

Scooting,
What I like about EFI is the ability to make minute tuning adjustments in a matter of minutes. With a wide band O2 indicator and a vacuum gauge you can pinpoint any spot in your fuel delivery that is too rich or too lean, and make adjustments over a nominal 500rpm band and a couple of inches of MAP on a laptop. If your driving takes you to elevation extremes, like coastal plains to the high mountain passes of Colorado then I think you might enjoy EFI, provided you like to get into the graphs & curves and learn how they work together. On the other hand, if your driving is all in a region that doesn't have wide variations of elevation, and if you have your Holley dialed in so you're getting the mileage you want without any performance balks then spending the bucks on EFI may not make sense. I knew from the start I wanted EFI, so I never made the investment in the intake & carb route and I enjoy tinkering with my EFI to maximize my efficiency in cruise, but give me a dialed in mixture at full throttle.

Stay with the holley and I hope you have a mechanical fuel pump----------

Roger, perhaps I am not reading your response correctly. I read it as if I go from a high altitude to sea level, the efi can be adjusted to respond correctly? I assumed that the efi would do it on it's own, hence the reason for owning it. If it does not do that, is it still that good of a buy? Even if it does adjust which I think it does, is it really helping that much on a trip?

Little more background, I live at 5280', one mile high, I can run up to 10,000' within 30 miles of home, and have been to both the east coast and west coast within the last year. Performance might be off a bit at sea level from the best tune but still it will pick them up and put them down. When at 14,000' it is a case of trips up and over the pass, then back into the real world. Not a lot of time spent at the extremes. $2K plus seems like a lot just to even out a tune on a trip. Not convinced yet. I asked about some quality heads for this motor on another discussion in this forum and I think the money might be better spent there. Or for 2 1/2K I could have a blower. In the search for the perfect tune, EFI should be the winner, no arguments there. But at this point, EFI at the carb level appears to be overpriced for what it does.

Sorry if I was not clear. A carb has idle, mid-range/transition, and WOT circuits but the fuel steps are mechanical - jet sizes and stepped metering rods that are mixed & matched in the tuning process. If you get it "right" it will perform well, but if you install a wide band O2 sensor and watch A/F vs RPM vs vacuum there will be spots in the A/F that will be rich or lean and it will be difficult to impossible to correct one spot without screwing up another area. It is simply not practical to get the optimized A/F ratio across the entire power band with a carb. That's why the OEM's are all EFI now.

What I was saying about adjustments, with EFI and a laptop you can tweak your system very easily to adjust and smooth the A/F map. Once you have it tuned the EFI system, using the MAP sensor to detect variations driven by barometric pressure, will compensate for changes in elevation from below sea level to over 14000 feet automatically. In your situation you have your Holley dialed in and are happy with the performance and economy, so I agree that the EFI is a spendy option for perhaps not much gain for you.

Must admit I would like to have a EFI. Wish they were half the price.

As is, it is a circuit taking infromation from sensors, making judgements and trying to match to theortical outputs. It should take a fair amount to figure one out but once done, the production cost of the devices would be minimal. Lots of profit is currently being given for the investment. If the market was larger, the purchase price of the unit would go way down and a profit still could be made. Think about what has happened with HD TVs in the last couple of years, same concept. What was thousands is now hundreds. (Yah, I know it would all be made in China and I would be bitching about that too.)

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Sorry for the double/double???????????

I think this is EFI Live tuning software

Might find some helpful tips here:

Advanced Tips for EFI Tuning with Fuel Pressure: Engine Builder

Wandering thru the Summit catalog, I came across another TBI manufacturer - Professional Products (Professional Products Online) . If you look through the write up, first of all, LOOKS physically better then most and particularly the FAST system. Next, it supposedly has more 'points' of tune then most. What I don't care for is that this company is not well known at least to me, therefore, what's their support(warranty, tech) as well as quality of the product unknown. Then, are they solvent - that is still be in business in 5 years.

Anyone know about these?

Dave,

My Brother-In-Law has put one of the Professional Products units on his '67 Mustang w/302-he's driven it around his local neighborhood so far a few times, and says that it was easy to install and works very well, and was of high quality-the best thing he liked about it, though, was the fact that he didn't have to run a return line-

Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Dave,

My Brother-In-Law has put one of the Professional Products units on his '67 Mustang w/302-he's driven it around his local neighborhood so far a few times, and says that it was easy to install and works very well, and was of high quality-the best thing he liked about it, though, was the fact that he didn't have to run a return line-

Thanks for that good info, Craig. That return line requirement was a factor that for me will 'defeat' the use of systems like FAST and Holley for my use. Looking through the Professional Products web page, it looks like there is a variable speed fuel pump that uses the ECM feed back. I'm trying to decide if this is all worth it or whether I just keep the $Carter$ fuel pump and the Edelbrock 1405 carb, along with the spare parts I've accumulated.

Jerry - I agree with you at least in that the OEMs have great systems but disagree with you about trying to do a better job with fuel management and reliability with aftermarket systems. Yes, I do understand that there are compromises, especially with a TBI. I have to say, even with those compromises - is an EFI installation really worth the, round numbers, $2000 +/- for me and how I use my 275-325Hp Sunday driven play time car

A simple fact that we all have to realize is that carbs are done and gone----------all the carb and carb manifold companies are done------for them (manifold) and/or (carb) companies to stay in any piece of automotive business they have to adapt to supporting some type of throttle body controlled electronic fuel injectionfor them to remain as a manifold manufacture----and that includes the necessity of doing an ECM system-----

As progress has been in the last few years----Ford and GM have put out some amazing engines as for as hp, economy and emissions---however they haven't been simple-----------

My opinion currently is that if you have an older car(pre OEM EFI) stay with an engine cam operated fuel pump and carb--If doing a fresh build, look at the newer engines along with the OEM PCM and accessories(belt drive, ac,wiring harness, fuel tank/pump systems)

This brings to light an item that will go unnoticed as most people look at the different EFI systems---there are different fuel supply system requirements and in the end if you are looking at high hp(say over 400) you will need a system that is way above what might be available within your budget level--there are many ways of controlling the fuel supply/return to tank and allowances for boost pressures and nitrous-------

I have two concerns.First how adaptable are the aftermarket systems when I drive 500 miles away from where the tune was done and the conditions now are completely different.The follows into my second concern it that I want a system that I tune once and forget it.I do not want to have to tinker with it all the time. So I want a continuous learning system.My project will be a EFI of some sort.