Fixing a strange engine noise and then some

When you get in a hurry, some things happen.

Way back when my engine was being done, I forgot to order hardened push rods for my upgraded camshaft/rockers/springs. While looking for that strange noise, decided to pull a rocker - oops, the regular OEM push rods are galled - and my guess is that they flexed and contacted the head. And no, with a mild hydraulic cam and fairly 'light' springs, guide plates should not be really needed.

Now - that strange noise - might have just been a very loose water pump pulley. Since I can barely get to the flat socket head screws with an allen wrench, there is no Loc-Tite on them - so if that fixes my problem, it will just be a regular maintenance item. If it's something else, and internal to the engine - it might just get interesting (read that as expensive as well as time consuming)

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Originally Posted by IC2

When you get in a hurry, some things happen.

Way back when my engine was being done, I forgot to order hardened push rods for my upgraded camshaft/rockers/springs. While looking for that strange noise, decided to pull a rocker - oops, the regular OEM push rods are galled - and my guess is that they flexed and contacted the head. And no, with a mild hydraulic cam and fairly 'light' springs, guide plates should not be really needed.

Now - that strange noise - might have just been a very loose water pump pulley. Since I can barely get to the flat socket head screws with an allen wrench, there is no Loc-Tite on them - so if that fixes my problem, it will just be a regular maintenance item. If it's something else, and internal to the engine - it might just get interesting (read that as expensive as well as time consuming)

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Hey Dave, good to see you posting!:) Sorry you're posting potential engine problems.:CRY: Hope tightening the water pump pulley makes it purr like a kitten!:D

guide plates help keep rocker tip on track with valve stem tip with out the rockers can track off the side of valve stem and rocker can start pushing on the valve spring retainers . many of the iron heads have guide slots in them if not a rail rocker tip tracks valve stem center or guide plate . if your using alum heads then you need guide plates and a harden push rods if not they will flay the push rods if not harden. not from flex but side to side movement eatting away the soft push rod . if using a shaft rocker set up then there is no need for any guide plates . a harden push rod will help on flex some but more needed when using a push rod guide plate . i will add a word of caution that there some cheap guide plates (over seas ) out there that are not hard and in time the hard push rods will fill file threw them and if let go,then you will see bad things. many companys jump on the cheap plates and put there name on them and sold them under there name:( there is alot of bad valve train parts out there

Hope that fixes things Dave! Things do get crowded on the front of the engine on many builds!!!!!

Pat - thanks for the education on guide plates. Not going to use the guide plate even though I do a set of Manley's left over from my last 351W and never used. With the hydraulic lifters, I would need shorter push rods by about the thickness of the plates - plus I'm using reasonably stock iron heads

Randy - it's not that I don't check in daily, just am cutting back with too many other things going on now. I too hope that the loose pulley 'cures' the noise. If not, I'll have to do an engine tear down.

Dave S - I'm probably going to change the fasteners on that pulley to hex heads and heavy duty washers - too many skinned knuckles

I don't get what you mean by needing shorter push rods if you use guide plates?????????????

What heads, rockers and valves are you using???

And a lot of wierd noises come from loose flex plates/torque converters

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I don't get what you mean by needing shorter push rods if you use guide plates?????????????

What heads, rockers and valves are you using???

And a lot of wierd noises come from loose flex plates/torque converters

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OOPS - should have said longer push rods - the guide plates, as normal, on a pedestal mount Ford head mount under the rockers - which will tell you that my cleaned up GT40P iron heads, mild Ford hydraulic roller cam, 3 angled stock valves, 1.7 Crane Energizer rockers, Crane springs, retainers and locks aren't a real high performance combo, but set up for street reliability.

Yeah, I know about flex plates and torque converters, except that noise seems to be in the front, RHS. I had the inspection/dust shield off over the winter and everything "appears" ok

when going to a guide plate most all the time you will cut stud tower down on heads . then bore out the guide holes in the head. then go to adjustable rocker stud not the 5/16 screws that hold the rockers on that tin track .if heads has i guide hole in head there is no need for guide plates .the first thing i do is to get the heads so i can go to adjustable valve train less a bone stock engine

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Originally Posted by IC2

Dave S - I'm probably going to change the fasteners on that pulley to hex heads and heavy duty washers - too many skinned knuckles

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Geez, thought I was the only one that had that problem!!!! Different hardware and a bit of blue loctite should cure the problem!

OK - (thanks first for those that helped some on my education) my new push rods arrived along with a couple other semi related parts and I'll be putting the engine back together and hoping no more strange noises.

I'm putting in new spark plugs - nahh, doesn't really need them, mileage wise, just want to....... The gap - normal for this crate engine is .054. I have a complete MSD - coil, box and distributor, 9.5 c.r., mild Ford Racing 'E' camshaft . Is that a good gap or should they be opened a bit to say .060 or so? I looked on the MSD forum and they are kinda wishy wash - basically suggesting copper core plugs (the new NGK 'G's aren't) then maybe play around for a sweet spot starting in somewhere .035 and going up from there once you weed through their blather - HUH!!

Any suggestions?? Comments?

I'd try .060 Dave, should be plenty of spark to shoot that gap. What number NGK?

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

I'd try .060 Dave, should be plenty of spark to shoot that gap. What number NGK?

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Dave - they are 3403 (TR55GP). Here are their advertising words about them:

G-Power (one below the top $$$ Iridium)
Improved Fuel Efficiency, Lower Emissions, Quicker Starts.

Fine platinum tip reduces required voltage
Extremely durable under high heat
Trivalent Metal Plating - superior anti-corrosion and anti-seizing properties
Superior anti-fouling characteristics
Faster starts and quicker acceleration
Better fuel economy and lower emissions

And that MSD spark - it is extremely strong (and a personal zap by that spark is 'enlightening'!!!!:whacked:)

I'll try the .060 gap

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Originally Posted by IC2

OK - (thanks first for those that helped some on my education) my new push rods arrived along with a couple other semi related parts and I'll be putting the engine back together and hoping no more strange noises.

I'm putting in new spark plugs - nahh, doesn't really need them, mileage wise, just want to....... The gap - normal for this crate engine is .054. I have a complete MSD - coil, box and distributor, 9.5 c.r., mild Ford Racing 'E' camshaft . Is that a good gap or should they be opened a bit to say .060 or so? I looked on the MSD forum and they are kinda wishy wash - basically suggesting copper core plugs (the new NGK 'G's aren't) then maybe play around for a sweet spot starting in somewhere .035 and going up from there once you weed through their blather - HUH!!

Any suggestions?? Comments?

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i have have good luck at .035 to .045 with the msd stuff no need to go that big less you want to check if your plug wires for leaks:)no need to buy any plugs better then a copper core .. ngk.s or denso.s accel.s all have the U goove . i use only auto lites. any thing other then AC.s you can play with this stuff but. i never seen any thing .i a low dollar plug guy

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

i have have good luck at .035 to .045 with the msd stuff no need to go that big less you want to check if your plug wires for leaks:)no need to buy any plugs better then a copper core .. ngk.s or denso.s accel.s all have the U goove . i use only auto lites. any thing other then AC.s you can play with this stuff but. i never seen any thing .i a low dollar plug guy

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Pat - why would you go less then at least the original, and in this case, .054? I was under the impression that these gaps were optimized for the electronic ignition systems, fuel charge burn efficiency/gas mileage (tho I really don't care so much about that-it's a fun car, not a daily driver). Granted, I used to use .035 on my past push rod Fords with the Dura Spark ignition even with an MSD box and coil in a couple cases. Heck, if that's a better gap, and I know why, I'll 'fix' the plugs now:D

As far as those plugs, from Rock Auto at about $2.50 each including postage is cheaper then I can buy a copper core Auto-Lite locally - even Wally World. (Heck, a plug is cheaper now then a quart of their house brand oil:eek:)

well your not using a ford box ? msd box ? all the msd s i used and that s many some were i was told to use 035 to 045 this is more to keep the plugs from blowing out with hi cr .opening up the plug gap your trying to do what? better burn. building more coil out put . spark dwell time ? and use a finite tip plug$$ that will do zip for you ?? with the msd you have this is multiple spark. no need to open up the gap but i could be way wrong but it works for me

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

well your not using a ford box ? msd box ? all the msd s i used and that s many some were i was told to use 035 to 045 this is more to keep the plugs from blowing out with hi cr .opening up the plug gap your trying to do what? better burn. building more coil out put . spark dwell time ? and use a finite tip plug$$ that will do zip for you ?? with the msd you have this is multiple spark. no need to open up the gap but i could be way wrong but it works for me

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Pat - just for the heluvit, did a google using these terms, "Effect of spark plug gaps". My suggestion on that, unless you really need to be confused, don't. Use what works for you. But after reading through it - your figures are good, but mostly for high compression and/or blown - turbo engines. What I did find is that no one really has a clue!!! Even the plug companies don't agree. Most did agree that big gaps will 'test the secondary' wiring. What I'm gong to do is reduce the gap to say .045/.048 and give that a try. I'll also keep the fairly low mileage take out plugs for more experimentation - if for no other reason then to play around to see if going one way or another makes any difference. Thanks for 'pushing' me to think:3dSMILE:

yep ok please report back on the plugs (: .i seen what happens with really big plug gaps damn lite show at night

FIXED !!!!!:D:D

The Crane/Ford Racing 1.7 roller rockers were the culprit. Why? I know that roller rockers can click some, but these were beyond a click. They only have a few thousand quiet miles(2-3K), when removed, no slop, absolutely no sign of wear. Installed the brand new, as supplied in the crate engine, stamped steel OEMs after a further run with the rollers. Oh well, someone will want them at a reasonable price

I haven't installed my new plugs yet - the .045 gauge wire is broken but I did regap the take outs at an ~ .048 with feelers. Seems to start easier. Don't know about performance yet, a ride is to follow this weekend sometime

i tell you why i think they make more sound .when guys go roller rocker arm there is a shaft in the rocker with a bearing on each side with a polly nut in the center rocker body can smack the polly nut and bag around more then the steel stamp shoe rocker ball or the pivot point like many fords and others that do not use the ball. it seams to cut down on the valve train sound .i tell guys that they are going to hear more valve train sound with roller rockers stud mounted and roller cam s HYD retro will added to the sound

crane golds 1.7 with 7/16 stud ? if so same as the bbc .i may have a interest in them

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

crane golds 1.7 with 7/16 stud ? if so same as the bbc .i may have a interest in them

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Unfortunately, not anything that you can use on a BBC. 5/16, I believe, bolt down/pedestal - I didn't modify my GT40P heads like I would have now.

Hey Dave, just checking to see how that test drive worked out....hope you're back on the road leaving a few tire marks in your neighborhood! LOL!

Randy

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Originally Posted by randyr

Hey Dave, just checking to see how that test drive worked out....hope you're back on the road leaving a few tire marks in your neighborhood! LOL!

Randy

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Randy - just waiting for the engine to cool, still has some 'strange noises' tho did manage to terrify the next door neighbor when my big, wide soled sneaker got caught between the brake and loud pedal and left a 10" wide by 20 foot long patch in my driveway. I have a narrow soled sneaker I normally wear and was just too lazy to change+.

Adios to a tranquil and domestic suburban neighborhood:whacked::o

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Originally Posted by IC2

Randy - just waiting for the engine to cool, still has some 'strange noises' tho did manage to terrify the next door neighbor when my big, wide soled sneaker got caught between the brake and loud pedal and left a 10" wide by 20 foot long patch in my driveway. I have a narrow soled sneaker I normally wear and was just too lazy to change+.

Adios to a tranquil and domestic suburban neighborhood:whacked::o

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i knew a guy that did that same thing shot his 37 ford coup threw the side of his cinder block shop foot was stuck

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Originally Posted by IC2

Randy - just waiting for the engine to cool, still has some 'strange noises' tho did manage to terrify the next door neighbor when my big, wide soled sneaker got caught between the brake and loud pedal and left a 10" wide by 20 foot long patch in my driveway. I have a narrow soled sneaker I normally wear and was just too lazy to change+.

Adios to a tranquil and domestic suburban neighborhood:whacked::o

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Well, I hope you have a really long driveway or at least had the car pointed to the street! It would really suck to end up like Pat's friend with the '37!:CRY:

As for the tranquil neighborhood, a little "wake-up call" once in a while is good for them!:D

As I recall, you said you're well-endowed at the ends of your legs and foot-space in a roadster is in short supply......have you considered hand controls??:LOL::LOL:

I guess Mama's gonna have you out there scrubbing that rubber off the driveway, right? :LOL:

Hope you figure out the "strange noises." Any clues where to look next?

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Originally Posted by randyr

Well, I hope you have a really long driveway or at least had the car pointed to the street! It would really suck to end up like Pat's friend with the '37!:CRY:

As for the tranquil neighborhood, a little "wake-up call" once in a while is good for them!:D

As I recall, you said you're well-endowed at the ends of your legs and foot-space in a roadster is in short supply......have you considered hand controls??:LOL::LOL:

I guess Mama's gonna have you out there scrubbing that rubber off the driveway, right? :LOL:

Hope you figure out the "strange noises." Any clues where to look next?

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The driveway is about 150 feet long - my home has a basement drive out 3rd garage stall, illegal by today's building codes, but I push the car outside, never starting it inside. I need to drive across my lawn, up a short grade. I just got onto the drive and shifted my butt end for a better seat position - aw sugar - my foot went between the brake and gas and off we went. Gotta admit - it WAS fun!! Those marks - a bucket of driveway sealer - but nahhhh, it's a 'mark' of never growing up:D

Strange noises - going to do one more preload check on the lifters and if there is no joy, will be doing a full engine tear down though will do a converter check per Jerry' suggestion tho I did a quick look over the winter. I was going to NSRA York, but would rather spend my time and $$ fixing the car plus the weather is forecast for rain, possibly clearing for the PM, but more rain on Sunday. Not a fun 350 mile ride

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IC2

The driveway is about 150 feet long - my home has a basement drive out 3rd garage stall, illegal by today's building codes, but I push the car outside, never starting it inside. I need to drive across my lawn, up a short grade. I just got onto the drive and shifted my butt end for a better seat position - aw sugar - my foot went between the brake and gas and off we went. Gotta admit - it WAS fun!! Those marks - a bucket of driveway sealer - but nahhhh, it's a 'mark' of never growing up:D

Strange noises - going to do one more preload check on the lifters and if there is no joy, will be doing a full engine tear down though will do a converter check per Jerry' suggestion tho I did a quick look over the winter. I was going to NSRA York, but would rather spend my time and $$ fixing the car plus the weather is forecast for rain, possibly clearing for the PM, but more rain on Sunday. Not a fun 350 mile ride

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rain yep we have some of that . had to turn the heat back on in the house and my shop less then a week ago i was looking for the house fan i use in the front room. it was so hot .now i am looking for snow ? before you get to far in the engine unhook the pcv valve off then plug line just to test. if you have one. take it out of the system .i was fooled by one time made noise like a bad front pump bearing or bad stall

Just out of curiosity, Dave.... Gave you tried taking the drive belts off to make sure it's not some funny noise in the accessories that is transferring into the engine?????


PS--Please don't ask how I learned to check noises this way.......:o:o:o

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Just out of curiosity, Dave.... Gave you tried taking the drive belts off to make sure it's not some funny noise in the accessories that is transferring into the engine?????


PS--Please don't ask how I learned to check noises this way.......:o:o:o

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Dave - when I changed the alt bracket this past winter, I did check to see if the water pump(a $tewart) and alternator were smooth and they are plus put $32 worth of new Gates/Napa belts on at the same time:CRY:

What I did today was to reinstall my 1.7 roller rockers, go through the Crane sequence of adjusting the lifter preload which is putting the lifters on the camshaft base circle then torquing to 20 lb ft after first contact(a royal PITA project). I also checked the actual amount of preload and while it was a quick and dirty method, am at about the optimum of +/- .030-.040 (.010-.060). It seems to be pretty quiet unless the 900 rpm idle drops to almost stall speed, then the engine goes into what sounds like a heavy ping/detonation. I played with the carb - and while it had a minor internal clean out, the right idle screw does nothing. It's almost like a vacuum leak is leaning the mixture to detonation. Since it's raining today, wasn't going to take it for a ride, but it appears like I also have a carb problem - so am about to 'donate' a few more bucks to Summit or Auto Zone and will rebuild my spare E-brock 1405.

More fun coming tomorrow:eek:

Pat, that PCV is a fancy Billet Specialties with brand new innards last fall, and doesn't seem to rattle nor did the last.

And yes, Dave, I sure do know what noises a drive belt and accessories can make:3dSMILE::3dSMILE:

Dang this is a fun hobby (usually)

Well, good to hear I'm not the only one that has ever overlooked the obvious!!!!!

Least you were smart enough to check the accessories first!!!!!!!!

yes but how hard is it to check the pcv ? they do not allway s rattle . sounds like you have some lifters with to much pre load haging some valves open

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

yes but how hard is it to check the pcv ? they do not allway s rattle . sounds like you have some lifters with to much pre load haging some valves open

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Pat - with these you take them down finger tight and just so that the tip roller contacts the valve stem and the pushrod is seated. You turn the bolt between 1/4 & 1 turn to reach the correct torque setting. This will give you the correct lifter
preload of .020" to .060". I'm between 1/3 of a turn and a little bit more and at 20 lb ft torque. And like I said a couple posts back, did a rough check and am at about .030 preload. This preload was done with the roller lifters at camshaft base circle - that is with both valve closed.

Thinking back, the carb has been "wrong" since I had a couple of major backfires (dist. was in 180 off - my dumb aw s**t) and it also started running poorly. Almost makes me wonder if something internally is cracked/broken, tho I had it apart, but only did a quick wipe down and float level check.

Tomorrow is another day:D

just throwing some thing out there. i setup and modified every rocker arm setup over the last 20+ years oem and the shaft stuff that cost more then some guys engines just trying to help. there not much in a afb / edlbrock that can go bad after a back fire but check for sticky step up power pistons and junk that may of back up in a air bleed .check base plate / gasket

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

just throwing some thing out there. i setup and modified every rocker arm setup over the last 20+ years oem and the shaft stuff that cost more then some guys engines just trying to help. there not much in a afb / edlbrock that can go bad after a back fire but check for sticky step up power pistons and junk that may of back up in a air bleed .check base plate / gasket

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Pat - if I get to the point that I pull the heads, I'll go to at least the stud mounted rockers and have the pedestal mount part of the head forging machined off.

I found someones shaft mount rockers for SB Fords on the web - and you are right, more then I'll ever be able to afford.

That Edelbrock carb is simple though I have seen a couple that have had cracked bases/bodies for whatever reason. It comes off today and if OK, I'll install a kit. If not, I'll redo that cruddy looking $20 swap meet spare which is fine. Base gaskets are new (a new 1" phenolic spacer instead of an aluminum version was installed over the winter)

Edit:
Got the carb off. Not too bad tho some crud inside but as yet haven't seen any cracks tho it is still drying out from the gas I poured out . Did a further check on the PCV and it had some black crud, possibly carbon - hmmmm. My records show it was replaced winter 2010-2011, not this past winter like I said in an earlier post. Now been cleaned tho it did seem to work. The carb end as well as the PCV ends of the hose had gotten sloppy and may have been a vacuum leak. Fixed!! A kit is on its way and I'll go from there tho do need some carb cleaner as my old bucket of it turned to slime a few years back.

OK - got the carb done and back on - I used the Berryman carb and parts cleaner. It's a little puny compared to the old stuff, so is slow. Put the 1.7 rockers back on then went for a ride. Runs like a champ - buuuuuuttttttt, at low rpm/idle or chugging just after putting it in gear, still some rattles when the oil pressure dips just a bit. This leads me to believe that regardless of how much and how often I torque these rockers down, they will rattle. To me, sounds like I need more preload - except the only way to do that is to install shorter push rods - and that becomes a $100 or more special once I determine the length, and to do that, then I'm getting into $75 or more worth of gaskets and another XXXX dollars in a length check push rod. Additionally, it is a royal pain to pull the heads on that car with the engine setback. Sooooo with that babble, Crane makes this pedestal mount rocker arm and guide conversion kit - Crane Cams 36655-16 - Crane Rocker Arm Guideplate Conversion Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com - yeah, I know it's a band aid and yeah, I need different rockers but there's another problem locally - lack of a decent automotive machine shop(that is someone you can actually discuss what is wanted). One question though - they say to use with Crane rockers. Is that just their way of saying that they "prefer" you to use Crane parts - the way I see it - a 3/8 stud rocker is just like someone else's. Plus I think I have located a new set of Harland Sharp Originals locally and reasonably priced.

This engine is driving me batty, to say the least - :whacked:

:o:o

Sounds like you made up your mind but, you can borrow my adjustable push rods and tester springs...

Why are you after more pre-load? What am I missing? Did you not just set pre-load to spec?

If you are getting valve train noise with low oil pressure-----you may have lifters that has the oil groove band coming out of the lifter bore , too loose a fit of lifters to tappet bore, oil restrictors somewhere, wrong matching (mismatched) pushrod to rocker or tappet radius---

in other words---if you get noise when oil pressure is low---you got to fix cause of low oil pressure----the lifters will still see the exact same pressure no matter what the pushrod length is

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Sounds like you made up your mind but, you can borrow my adjustable push rods and tester springs...

Why are you after more pre-load? What am I missing? Did you not just set pre-load to spec?

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I'm at the 'bitter end' of the minimum of ~.020 (spec is .020-.060). Preload on these pedestal rockers is set by guess and by golly - you bolt the rockers in place, make sure the assembly being adjusted is on the cam base circle, then torque to 18-20 lb ft. If it takes a quarter to half turn after first contact to reach that torque figure, it's supposed to be 'in spec'. Now, this is conjecture - if the oil pressure dips a few psig, the lifters seem to lose their capability to stay pumped up. When that happens, clatter and the engine idle capability dies as well. With a cold engine, carb on high idle (1000 rpm or more, not a whisper of clatter. At 190(operating temp), 800 rpm idle, some clatter, drop it into gear, haul the engine down another 100 rpm or so ---- you get the picture. Now, pull the engine apart. replace the Fel-Pro 10112 .039 compressed thickness head gaskets with the 'recommended' Fel-Pro 9333Pt1, .047 compressed thickness - it will, I'm sure, get worse.

What I'm trying to do is get some adjustability in my valve system - and pedestal mounts aren't what I need

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

If you are getting valve train noise with low oil pressure-----you may have lifters that has the oil groove band coming out of the lifter bore , too loose a fit of lifters to tappet bore, oil restrictors somewhere, wrong matching (mismatched) pushrod to rocker or tappet radius---

in other words---if you get noise when oil pressure is low---you got to fix cause of low oil pressure----the lifters will still see the exact same pressure no matter what the pushrod length is

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Jerry - wouldn't I hear the clatter all of the time? Normal oil press at regular idle speed is 40+ psig - at 2000, about 60. The only time it dips is like I said above - and the oil pump is operating slower.

As far as push rods, they are Ford Racing L605's, identical in length to the OEMs at 6.272 (both them and the OEMs actual measure at 6.252 and according to other Ford forums, correct), matched to Ford roller lifters, in a crate roller Ford engine running a Ford E303 camshaft which has not a heluva lot more lift the the stocker.

With this all said, three pages worth, mine appears to be louder then most, but others have had some level of this problem too.

i can tell you 3 years ago i look at a 66 fast back mustang guy must of had $60.000+ in it very nice car .it had a ford crate hyd roller engine with roller rockers it was in a shop they wanted me to hear it . it had some sound to the rockers arms.i told them to live with it or pull the engine and i could rework the valve train. but i told him at the end of the work it may not sound much better for the money .you are looking for more pre load you want a longer push rods.you can not go by what ford use in there crate engine less the deck and head gasket base circle on the cam roller lifters push rod cup is height is the same along with valve stem height . face of the head deck to height to pedestal height is the same of crate engine . i can get any size push rod you need if you want .010 or .020 more pre load add that to push rod over all. give me the magic number and i look up the push rod for you. i have them all on a min CD as i am a dealer for a custom push rod company