Short Oil Filter Application

Printable View

07-06-2011, 07:54 AM
rspears

Short Oil Filter Application

In a Sunbeam Tiger Owner's discussion there was talk about using a shorty filter instead of the hassles of a remote mounted filter, but they stated,

Quote:

To use the short filters you will need to use a shorter 1 3/16" nipple (the threaded piece that screws into the block). Ford used to carry these. The part number was D7AZ-6890-B which superceeded to F1AZ-6890-B. I don't know if they still sell them.

I have never heard about this short nipple or the need for it if running the short filters, like the WIX 51335, and NAPA Gold 1335. I'm running the short filter to clear my steering box, but did nothing to the mounting nipple that was in the block. Does anyone know why this would be necessary?
07-06-2011, 09:14 AM
IC2

Quote:

Originally Posted by rspears

In a Sunbeam Tiger Owner's discussion there was talk about using a shorty filter instead of the hassles of a remote mounted filter, but they stated,

I have never heard about this short nipple or the need for it if running the short filters, like the WIX 51335, and NAPA Gold 1335. I'm running the short filter to clear my steering box, but did nothing to the mounting nipple that was in the block. Does anyone know why this would be necessary?

Why would you need this? Sounds like someone might be using that super short (Volvo maybe??) filter - I'm just using the tried and proven Motorcraft FL300 with a 'standard' nipple:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...d/DSCN1504.jpg

EDIT - just looked - that WIX 51335 is the super shorty
07-06-2011, 09:17 AM
Mike P

Just a guess, but I suspect that the shorter nipple is required for clearance to actually get the filter in and out.

I ran into this on my Cadillac swap a while back. Once the filter is in there is adequate clearance, however to install and remove the filter I had to shorten the nipple just a bit (to clear the sway bar in my case).
07-06-2011, 09:24 AM
pat mccarthy

i have one short nipple one night to many beers and a encounter with a belt sander:eek:
07-06-2011, 09:31 AM
Itoldyouso

Quote:

Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

i have one short nipple one night to many beers and a encounter with a belt sander:eek:

Has that affected your love life much?????? :LOL::LOL:

I used to run the short Volvo filters on my 27 with no special adapter, it just screws onto the regular Ford adapter. I suspect it is because of what Mike said about being easier to turn on a sharp angle when installing and removing the filter, if the threaded part was shorter.

Don
07-06-2011, 11:35 AM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Has that affected your love life much?????? :LOL::LOL:

I used to run the short Volvo filters on my 27 with no special adapter, it just screws onto the regular Ford adapter. I suspect it is because of what Mike said about being easier to turn on a sharp angle when installing and removing the filter, if the threaded part was shorter.
Don

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike P

Just a guess, but I suspect that the shorter nipple is required for clearance to actually get the filter in and out.

I ran into this on my Cadillac swap a while back. Once the filter is in there is adequate clearance, however to install and remove the filter I had to shorten the nipple just a bit (to clear the sway bar in my case).

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2

Why would you need this? Sounds like someone might be using that super short (Volvo maybe??) filter - I'm just using the tried and proven Motorcraft FL300 with a 'standard' nipple:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...d/DSCN1504.jpg

EDIT - just looked - that WIX 51335 is the super shorty

Dave, with this "super shorty" filter, which is a Lotus OEM as I understand, I have just enough room to the Vega steering box to change the filter without jacking up the engine. A normal "short" filter will not even come close to fitting - it's either the super shorty or a remote filter.
Mike/Don, I had not thought about clearance to get the filter out, and that makes good sense. As I said, the comment came from a Sunbeam Tiger discussion, and who knows what the interference issues are with the SBF in that confined space. I've been scratching my head why the nipple length would really matter, and I think you guys have hit the nail on the head! And once again, Pat has made me cringe just a bit just thinking about contacting a belt sander with sensitive parts....:eek:
07-06-2011, 01:08 PM
HWORRELL

I'm sure Mike is right on about the nipple for clearence. We did a 5.0 G.T. motor into a 67 sunbeam a few years back and no matter what we tried a remote filter was the only way and we had a hell of a time getting nuff clearence on the adapter and hoses because of the headers.Also had a hell of a time finding nuff room under the bonnet to mount the filter.Butttttt that baby sure would scoot.I sure wouldn't wanted to drive it on a rainy day.
07-06-2011, 02:50 PM
rspears

Well, today has been a learning experience. I could not get any definitive answer on the short nipple need, but it can only be a clearance issue. What I did get was an education on that super shorty filter, and why it is considered to be undesirable, especially on a healthy stroker motor. The Sunbeam Tiger crowd has some very knowledgable guys, and I communicated with three of them today, the last being an aeronautical engineer who restores Tigers. Bottom line, that little filter creates a situation where anytime the engine calls for more oil capacity it is simply not there, so the filter gets bypassed and I'm circulating unfiltered oil. The answer is a remote filter unit using a full size filter. Product Engineering makes a really nice engine adapter unit, and I'm looking for a comparable billet aluminum remote mount for a filter. Summit has a bunch, but most are cast aluminum which is not so desirable. Once I've selected components I'll be looking for the right mounting location....
07-07-2011, 04:55 AM
34_40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rspears

Bottom line, that little filter creates a situation where anytime the engine calls for more oil capacity it is simply not there, so the filter gets bypassed and I'm circulating unfiltered oil. The answer is a remote filter unit using a full size filter. Product Engineering makes a really nice engine adapter unit, and I'm looking for a comparable billet aluminum remote mount for a filter. Summit has a bunch, but most are cast aluminum which is not so desirable. Once I've selected components I'll be looking for the right mounting location....

OK, I'll bite.. :D

1. Are you really turning high rpm's or more just about town driving?
2. What about that adapter that turns the filter mount 90's and use a full size filter?

Not questioning your motives, just curious.
07-07-2011, 05:09 AM
Itoldyouso

I don't know if that guys theory holds any water (or oil :D) in the real world, Roger. How much extra capacity can there be in that extra couple of inches? You figure, when you prefill a filter when changing it the thing only holds such a small amount and most of that is absorbed into the filter media. If there is an extra 4 oz in a longer one vs a short one, I would think that would not be enough storage capacity to even contribute anything.

When I swapped the 5.0 Ford into my old Jeep pickup I had to use that Volvo filter as the steering box was right there. I abused that thing regularly and towed trailers long distances at times with no oiling problems ever.

Don
07-07-2011, 05:50 AM
Bob Parmenter

I can hear the orange engine guys thinking now: Besides having to reverse the pan sump, and find hardware to shorten the water pump, you guys have to fiddle with oil filters too? Hmmmmmmmmm:LOL::p
07-07-2011, 06:08 AM
IC2

Uncle Bob - we Blue Oval guys are up to the challenge. Those Bow Tie guys have it too easy and no challenge but the same cookbook the next guy has.

Mike - those Ford 90 degree adapters can work fine, but you might end up with still an awkward placing. I tried on instead of the 1" shorter FL300 and it didn't work/look right

Roger - the Hamburger filter mounts aren't cast but billet. That other company has a nice block adapter but no filter mount - surprising. If I have to 'advertise' a brand name, I want both the same
07-07-2011, 06:20 AM
34_40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2

Uncle Bob - we Blue Oval guys are up to the challenge. Those Bow Tie guys have it too easy and no challenge but the same cookbook the next guy has.

Mike - those Ford 90 degree adapters can work fine, but you might end up with still an awkward placing. I tried on instead of the 1" shorter FL300 and it didn't work/look right

I'll have to agree with ITYS, seems much ado about nothing, IMHO! :LOL:
Even my 4x4 dodge pickup used a shorty filter and still went better than 200K miles and it was ABUSED by me and my friends.

Dave, sometimes form following function is my driver! Looks are in the eyes of the beholder, right?!?!:LOL:**):3dSMILE:
07-07-2011, 06:40 AM
rspears

3 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 34_40

OK, I'll bite.. :D

1. Are you really turning high rpm's or more just about town driving?
2. What about that adapter that turns the filter mount 90's and use a full size filter?

Not questioning your motives, just curious.

Mike,
While most of my driving is easy cruising I live out in the country and it is still a big rush to hit the skinny pedal and let it pull through the gears. I'll probably grow out of it some day, but not too soon ;)
Like Dave says, the 90degree adapter might clear, but it puts a full size filter right into the motor mount. Some of the vans had a 90 degree skinny filter unit, but I don't like that approach much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

I don't know if that guys theory holds any water (or oil :D) in the real world, Roger. How much extra capacity can there be in that extra couple of inches? You figure, when you prefill a filter when changing it the thing only holds such a small amount and most of that is absorbed into the filter media. If there is an extra 4 oz in a longer one vs a short one, I would think that would not be enough storage capacity to even contribute anything.

When I swapped the 5.0 Ford into my old Jeep pickup I had to use that Volvo filter as the steering box was right there. I abused that thing regularly and towed trailers long distances at times with no oiling problems ever.

Don

Don,
I think the issue is that the larger filter has about four times the filter surface area of the super shorty, so if you push it to high rpm the oil volume increases and all of that oil is forced through the filter media. With the full size it handles the duty, but with only 1/4 (or less) the surface the super shorty creates high differential, and the pump bypasses the filter.

Another thing that is a bit bothersome is that one guy shared that because of the severe piston to rod angles created by the extended stroke of the 347 they tend to be relatively short life engines compared to the stock 302 or even the 331. His thought was "Why take the chance of any oiling problems when you're already trying to cheat the clock on internal wear?" I haven't sorted that one out yet, but I have a hard time arguing with the filter differential/bypass situation.

Just so we're all thinking of the same things, this "super short" filter is pretty small. Here's pictures of the three different WIX filters, all which fit the standard Ford 3/4x16 filter nipple.
Here's the full sizeAttachment 50238
And the mid-size/shortyAttachment 50239
And the super shortyAttachment 50241 The super shorty measures just 2" on the straight side.
07-07-2011, 07:54 AM
Itoldyouso

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

I can hear the orange engine guys thinking now: Besides having to reverse the pan sump, and find hardware to shorten the water pump, you guys have to fiddle with oil filters too? Hmmmmmmmmm:LOL::p

You forgot one, Bob. Our Ford parts cost about 3 times as much as similar Bowtie parts. :eek::D:D

Don
07-07-2011, 09:21 AM
Bob Parmenter

Quote:

Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

You forgot one, Bob. Our Ford parts cost about 3 times as much as similar Bowtie parts. :eek::D:D

Don

Far be it from me to cross the line from mere mockery to outright cruelty..................................................:D
07-07-2011, 07:37 PM
34_40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rspears

Mike,
While most of my driving is easy cruising I live out in the country and it is still a big rush to hit the skinny pedal and let it pull through the gears. I'll probably grow out of it some day, but not too soon ;)
Like Dave says, the 90degree adapter might clear, but it puts a full size filter right into the motor mount. Some of the vans had a 90 degree skinny filter unit, but I don't like that approach much.

Just so we're all thinking of the same things, this "super short" filter is pretty small.

Like I said earlier Roger, not to question your motives, I've always read your replies, comments & thoughts and had the feeling your a well spoken, intelligent and thoughtful individual! I feel you know your stuff and like you I still want to slap down the skinny pedal on the right and hold it there as long as possible! :D:D

If I was using that "super" shorty filter, I'd probably go remote too! I'd also take the opportunity to add in a oil cooler while I was at it! Why you ask? I don't know.. WHY NOT?? it's a hot rod! :LOL::LOL:**):D:D
07-08-2011, 05:59 AM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by 34_40

Like I said earlier Roger, not to question your motives, I've always read your replies, comments & thoughts and had the feeling your a well spoken, intelligent and thoughtful individual! I feel you know your stuff and like you I still want to slap down the skinny pedal on the right and hold it there as long as possible! :D:D

If I was using that "super" shorty filter, I'd probably go remote too! I'd also take the opportunity to add in a oil cooler while I was at it! Why you ask? I don't know.. WHY NOT?? it's a hot rod! :LOL::LOL:**):D:D

Mike,
Thanks for the very kind words.:o As opposed to "well spoken" I've sometimes been accused of using 50 words where 10 would do... ;)
Yep, I think a remote oil filter setup is in my future, and now you've put another thought in my head with the oil cooler :p :LOL: Like you say, "Why Not??", other than finding a good space.
07-08-2011, 10:31 AM
IC2

I momentarily considered an oil cooler but since the engine is only a mildly built 5.0 felt that with the big Walker radiator and no hood sides (yet) it wasn't necessary, that the oil and coolant would be best left at normal operating temps ( I have never seen the H20 above 185-195*) and the fan has only come on a very few times even on the warmest days so far and then only in stop and go driving. Of course, it never gets as hot here on the tundra of Upstate NY as Eastern MA and for sure Kansas.......:cool::LOL:
07-09-2011, 04:51 AM
34_40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rspears

Mike,
Thanks for the very kind words.:o As opposed to "well spoken" I've sometimes been accused of using 50 words where 10 would do... ;)
Yep, I think a remote oil filter setup is in my future, and now you've put another thought in my head with the oil cooler :p :LOL: Like you say, "Why Not??", other than finding a good space.

I have tossed around the idea for awhile. In my case, no real reason to do it but, rather just because! :LOL: I mean the whole reason for having this car is "just because"... It's a, 1. creative outlet.. 2. a form of expression... 3. a chance of learning new skill(s)... (insert other B.S. here!)

Dave. Down here in the flatlands, it doesn't get so hot really. Once in a great while it may get to a hundred, but that is RARE! Usually it's the 3 H's.. hazy, hot, humid , that'll sap the strength from you. When we lived in New Mexico, now THAT was hot! But I won't bother with the , "but it's a dry heat" bull... when you can't touch the hood or door for fear of a burn, it's too hot! :LOL:
07-09-2011, 06:25 AM
randyr

I'm kinda late for this party but I ran a remote filter on my '37 w/302 for years. I used the oil resistant hoses w/clamps, etc. It didn't leak except one time when I blew a hose :CRY::CRY:. Fortunately, it all happened near an Autozone so I coasted into their parking lot and bought the necessary stuff for a quick repair and continued on my way.

On my rebuild, I wanted to consider other options for the filter. The only shorty filter that is short enough to clear my R&P steering setup while still allowing room to put it on and take it off is the Volvo filter. I'm going to try it for a while (if I ever get the car done enough to fire it up!:HMMM:) and if I don't like it, I'll have some custom hoses made for the remote setup and put it back on.

Ok, now after 2 paragraphs of not saying much of anything, I feel kinda like how Roger described himself.....(using 50 words where only 10 are necessary):whacked: but at least I now get updates on yet another thread that interests me....:D:D
07-09-2011, 11:43 AM
IC2

Quote:

Originally Posted by randyr

Ok, now after 2 paragraphs of not saying much of anything, I feel kinda like how Roger described himself.....(using 50 words where only 10 are necessary):whacked: but at least I now get updates on yet another thread that interests me....:D:D

Can you imagine a get together with Roger, you and me plus a couple other suspects who shall remain unnamed.

Just be happy that I don't type well:CRY::eek:
07-09-2011, 12:40 PM
rspears

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by IC2

Roger - the Hamburger filter mounts aren't cast but billet. That other company has a nice block adapter but no filter mount - surprising. If I have to 'advertise' a brand name, I want both the same

Dave,
I looked at the Hamburger line but can't abide that red anodizing ;). I'm looking seriously at the Canton Racing Products pieces from Summit, but buying my AN fittings & hose locally from Star Performance once I see where I can make things fit, and what angles work best. The Canton Remote Filter Adapter is very similar to the one from Product Engineering, and they also have a remote filter mount, all in black anodized finish :3dSMILE:.
Attachment 50257 Attachment 50258
07-09-2011, 03:22 PM
34_40

I'd agree with you Roger. The black is so much better!
07-10-2011, 04:02 PM
rspears

Visited with my son late yesterday and mentioned that I was thinking about the remote filter setup so that I could run a full size filter. He's an airplane mechanic, and he said that if it were his he would leave it alone, running the super shorty filter. First, he said that he's only seen one engine making metal in his career (they cut every filter open for inspection), and if it's making metal bypassing the filter is not going to increase the rate of destruction; and second, the remote filter adds hoses and connections as potential failure points, which is true. I'm back on the fence a bit - I think a bigger filter would be desirable, but it's hard to argue with the added risk of four connection points on a remote. Decisions, decisions, decisions.....
07-10-2011, 07:50 PM
randyr

Quote:

Originally Posted by rspears

I'm back on the fence a bit - I think a bigger filter would be desirable, but it's hard to argue with the added risk of four connection points on a remote. Decisions, decisions, decisions.....

Yeah, Roger, having had a hose failure on my remote filter led me to give the shorty filter some serious consideration. I figured if it concerned me too much I could change it more often. Heck, Volvo uses it and those cars often run 2-300K miles!
07-11-2011, 01:06 AM
Itoldyouso

I'm in agreement with you guys that the short filter having any potential downside is a non issue. Like I mentioned, I ran one on my Jeep pickup for years and years with no problems whatsoever. When I changed the oil it was still as clean as it would have been with any larger filter.

Also, the Mustang 5.0 filter isn't a whole lot longer and they put that one on some wicked 5.0 cars that would surely not stay together if the filter were a problem. Adding a remote filter just puts more parts into the mix and the more parts you have the more potential for leakage and failure.

Oh, and to get that red or blue or whatever anodizing off, use EZ Off oven cleaner. It takes it off and exposes the bare aluminum underneath like it was never there.

Don
04-29-2012, 07:24 AM
461/2ton

I have been down a road similar to the one discussed in this post, trying to eliminate my remote filter setup on a 46 Ford PU with Y. Is the general feeling that the ultra short Lotus filter will work OK? I tried one and it simply looked like a bad idea. The Lotus engine the small filter goes on is only something like 1.9L (looked it up 2 years ago). Reasoning said that the much smaller engine would be pumping a lot less oil than my 292.
04-29-2012, 07:40 AM
jerry clayton

Just saw this today for first time---If I remember correctly, Barnes oil systems did make some angled adapters for some engines so you could mount a filter on the engine without all the plumbing of remotes and use a full sized(some even the biggies)filter but they mounted at a different angle so you could screw them on and off---Call and tell John that I told you to call---
04-29-2012, 08:54 AM
461/2ton

I forgot to mention that the right angle adapter wouldnt work in any position, even with the shorter FL300.
04-29-2012, 10:24 AM
rspears

Quote:

Originally Posted by 461/2ton

I forgot to mention that the right angle adapter wouldnt work in any position, even with the shorter FL300.

I'm still using the super shorty Lotus style filter on my 347. I decided that I did not like the idea of the supply/return lines, with four hose connections as opposed to the reduced filter area. I will probably contact the guys at Barnes, as Jerry suggests, to see if they might have an adapter that would allow use of a full sized filter, but barring that I'll run the best super shorty I can get, which for me is either NAPA Gold or WIX.
04-29-2012, 06:11 PM
34_40

Quote:

Originally Posted by 461/2ton

I forgot to mention that the right angle adapter wouldnt work in any position, even with the shorter FL300.

And that's why Roger and some of the other guys have gone to that super short filter. General concensus is that it works fine, replace with each oil change and your good to go! No big deal.