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  • 2 Post By stotzbotz
  • 3 Post By shine
  • 1 Post By jerry clayton
  • 2 Post By Henry Rifle
  • 3 Post By 34_40
  • 1 Post By stotzbotz
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Thread: Follow up to FE 390 Valve Guides leaking after rebuild. Got my heads back again.
          
   
   

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  1. #1
    stotzbotz is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Follow up to FE 390 Valve Guides leaking after rebuild. Got my heads back again.

     



    Well I just got my heads back today for the second time. Horribly I couldn't retrieve them without giving the machine shop $711.00. And that was with the owner saying that he gave me a break on the bronze valve guides which he said were normally $25.00 apiece. He charged me $5.00 apiece. He claimed that the valves looked good and that if they were his he would run the car without replacing them. We argued back and forth about what he should have done when the heads were brought in the first time although no matter what was said he was in the right and I was in the wrong not telling him to replace them in the first place. I think that these places sometimes take advantage of folks like me who hand them something and say "Can you please check these heads out and take care of any problems you may find?" Having now shelled out $1000.00 + for these heads to be worked on and still not have new valves seems high to me but maybe that's a fair price. Just thought I'd let you guys know the outcome. Now it's time to get this puppy back together and hopefully enjoy blasting down the road without looking like the mosquito control guy. Happy weekend to you folks
    NTFDAY and rspears like this.

  2. #2
    shine's Avatar
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    i'd be raising bail money.

  3. #3
    jerry clayton's Avatar
    jerry clayton is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    I think you have mis interepted the conversation once again---

    However , you still have spent less than if I'd done them-----
    NTFDAY likes this.

  4. #4
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    Henry Rifle is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Without being critical, I think "Do what you think needs to be done" without getting an estimate is an invitation to disappointment.
    NTFDAY and 34_40 like this.
    Jack

    Gone to Texas

  5. #5
    NTFDAY's Avatar
    NTFDAY is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Why don't you post the name of this fine individual and the name of his shop so others on this board that live in your area can avoid him?
    Ken Thomas
    NoT FaDe AwaY and the music didn't die
    The simplest road is usually the last one sought
    Wild Willie & AA/FA's The greatest show in drag racing

  6. #6
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    How is it the shops fault?
    Fella walks in and drops off the parts and says "do what needs to be done".... He just gave that shop Carte Blanche to do whatever they wanted!

    What he needed to say was, please disassemble, inspect and in X number of days I'll return to discuss the plan to repair.

    Upon returning, had he decided to also replace the valves, it would be his option. As the owner of the parts.. he should get the final say.

  7. #7
    stotzbotz is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    First of all thanks for the comments but some of you may not understand the situation here. I took these heads in several months ago and asked the guy to check them out since they had been in the cars trunk for nearly 20 years. I told him to replace the valve seals and check that the valves are functioning properly and let me know what needed to be done in order for the heads to do their job properly. After he had them for about a week he called and told me 2 exhaust valves were not sealing properly and needed to be replaced. He was also going to resurface the heads and give them a bath. Nothing else was mentioned as needing to be done. Now the average person would think that after getting these heads back they were ready to use. I would not have installed them had I thought otherwise. You folks that are serious re builders or machine shop owners of course may be much more intelligent than me but I would think that part of the job of checking these heads out is examining the valve guide clearance and letting me know if replacing the guides is needed. Why would I specifically need to request that to be checked? This should be part of the inspection process in my opinion. I would have paid to get it done at the first visit and not had to break my engine down and take them in a second time wasting my time and spending more money on fresh gaskets and fluids. The place is called Competition Racing Engines or CRE on South Monroe in Tallahassee, Florida by the way.One of the last things this guy said to me as I was leaving is that he needs to get out of this business which I don't think is the best statement to make to a customer disgruntled or not.
    NTFDAY likes this.

  8. #8
    jerry clayton's Avatar
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    I have 2 ways to service valve guide clearance issues in older heads---------If they are worn a little, you can knurl the id -there are different types of knurling tools and a big difference in results. After any guide work I finish hone the id with a Sunnen diamond one pass hone tool.
    Valves can be replaced with oversized stems to make up the difference that the service work has made the guide straight and round but will be oversize.

    You can use a guided pilot step drill that will drill guide oversize for installing a brass liner and then use a swedging tool and the resizing methods above.

    You can drill out the head and install a completely new guide with an interference fit od for either stock or thinner(lightweight) stemmed valves-------and size the id to the valve as above

    Guides replaced are usually only .502 od so will need a special size seal.

    I looked online and couldn't find anything good about this shop --don't know why anyone internet savvy would of went there-----

    Takes about $80,000 of equipment to service cylinder heads----------

  9. #9
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    stotzbotz I hope that you don't let the negative comments outweigh the positives and run you off. I for one have enjoyed your postings as you've chased this problem, and I hope that you'll stick around and close the loop as you get the engine back together and on the road again. I'm looking forward to you posting the next chapter.
    Roger
    Enjoy the little things in life, and you may look back one day and realize that they were really the BIG things.

  10. #10
    JL350 is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Stotzbotz good stuff, hopefully the problems are all sorted. If not keep chasing them down, the guys here have plenty of good advice most probably learnt the hard way.

    You won't be the first or last to have to redo a job like this or worse, most have probably been in the same position and learnt from it.

    Good luck with it.
    techinspector1, NTFDAY and rspears like this.

  11. #11
    DennyW is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Quote Originally Posted by stotzbotz View Post
    First of all thanks for the comments but some of you may not understand the situation here. I took these heads in several months ago and asked the guy to check them out since they had been in the cars trunk for nearly 20 years. I told him to replace the valve seals and check that the valves are functioning properly and let me know what needed to be done in order for the heads to do their job properly. After he had them for about a week he called and told me 2 exhaust valves were not sealing properly and needed to be replaced. He was also going to resurface the heads and give them a bath. Nothing else was mentioned as needing to be done. Now the average person would think that after getting these heads back they were ready to use. I would not have installed them had I thought otherwise. You folks that are serious re builders or machine shop owners of course may be much more intelligent than me but I would think that part of the job of checking these heads out is examining the valve guide clearance and letting me know if replacing the guides is needed. Why would I specifically need to request that to be checked? This should be part of the inspection process in my opinion. I would have paid to get it done at the first visit and not had to break my engine down and take them in a second time wasting my time and spending more money on fresh gaskets and fluids. The place is called Competition Racing Engines or CRE on South Monroe in Tallahassee, Florida by the way.One of the last things this guy said to me as I was leaving is that he needs to get out of this business which I don't think is the best statement to make to a customer disgruntled or not.
    Yep, that guy does not have a very good reputation at all...It's sad on a number of things you want to get fixed. Doctors, lawyers, and so on. They are all different in what they do to fix things... As far as pricing, I think personally, you got taken. There are approximately 3 ways to do guide work. I personally like the knurl, and roll back the material inside the guide. You are not removing material. And the rolled material becomes tougher. The ones that knurl the guide, and then cut the excess away, are making things short lived. By knurling, and rolling back, you maintain the material, and it actually is a benefit to the guide. Of course, if the guide is beyond a knurl to limit, then new guides should be installed. Or, oversized valves used.
    I usually, knurl, measure, and make sure there is enough material to do the job. (taking the bell mouth out. If not, I look for oversized valve stem valves, and size the guide to them. More than one way to fix the problem, without breaking the bank. I mean, the price of new replacement heads is just about equal to what they charged you. Differently not a good place to have work done.
    And when a shop starts telling you how much the equipment costs them, look out. If they can't buy the equipment, and expect the amount of customer flow to pay for it, they shouldn't do the work. JMO.

    The main object of knurling guides, is to take the bell mouth out of the ID of the guide. To move the material around to then position it into place. Not knurl it, and remove material. That totally defeats the knurling.
    Last edited by DennyW; 05-14-2016 at 10:02 AM.
    jerry clayton likes this.

  12. #12
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    My comment about the cost of equipment had nothing to do with an expected cash flow from customers-My equipment was all bought to support my racing and being able to do STUFF that the general shops out there weren't equipped or trained to do. Also MY equip for head work didn't cost $80k, but probably would today----------

    I'll try to do some pics of some guide sizing tooling over the next few days and hopefully get them posted.

  13. #13
    DennyW is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry clayton View Post
    My comment about the cost of equipment had nothing to do with an expected cash flow from customers-My equipment was all bought to support my racing and being able to do STUFF that the general shops out there weren't equipped or trained to do. Also MY equip for head work didn't cost $80k, but probably would today----------

    I'll try to do some pics of some guide sizing tooling over the next few days and hopefully get them posted.
    Jerry, I wasn't saying you in specifics. What caught my attention was---Lots of shops that do buy equipment, adjust the pricing upwards to do repairs. And put the pricing toward the customer, along with the repairs. This is related to all equipment. Myself, I never adjusted pricing onto the customer. I simply put in longer hours to pay for it.
    In the racing field, equipment is key, to get the best results. I totally understand that. To be on top, you have to have the equipment to ---be on top.
    PS: Which, I think the shop he went to did that...And they simply wanted a LOT of free pocket money...
    Last edited by DennyW; 05-14-2016 at 11:25 AM.

  14. #14
    rubyrides is offline CHR Junior sMember Visit my Photo Gallery
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    just registered to maybe help with your smoking problem if i am going over old ground i apologize in advance.. I had a similar issue caused by a leaking intake manifold. it seems cj ports do not play well with PI intakes nor did they work with an offenhauser manifold prior to the PI.

    the clue was that my valve stems were covered in carbon from burnt oil might make one think the guides were bad but no not the case . It was sucking oil from the valley at the btm of the intake. my cure was to go back to the oem cast intake even at that it took awhile to burn out the oil in the exhaust system. sure hated giving up that aluminum pi manifold but it just would not seal . Had the same problem with the previous manifold and rebuilt the motor to fix the smoking problem only to have it still smoke with the PI on it ..

    so check out your sealing area at the btm of the the ports as i dont know what your combination is i cant say much about it but thats where my problem was. if your heads were milled that could also cause a problem with the intake

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