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So I've heard this term before and have done some really basic research about what it is and how it works, my question however is how do you measure the distance between each cylinder so you know how far you can sleeve the block? Also can you do this to any block or only certain and specific applications? Sorry if these are foolish questions, I am no engine builder lol, just very interested in the process and would like to learn a little more about it. Thank you for your time.
A dial caliper will let you measure the distance, divide by 2----------but that really doesn't answer the question-------
there are methods to sleeve about anything-----however lots of things will limit you on size-bolt or cooling holes close to sleeve will crack out and if bolt holes in deck you will probably lose clamping force at that spot-----cooling holes can be filled with plugs and redrilled-in fact , back in the days of 392 on nitro we filled those holes with plugs to reinforce deck, but of course had to resurface decks
Was there any specific type of block that you wanted to do?????
Thanks for the reply! And yes there is in fact but I'm sure it will get flamed on here as it is no hot rod lol. It is a continuing conflict about a non turbo vg30de motor never being able to produce the same amount of power as the twin turbo motor.. However one outlet few people have gone is sleeping the an block and producing excellent numbers but little information on how it was done and how much it was sleeved.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
I'm not your source for information on sleeving a block, but the VG30DE is a Nissan V6 produced in mass from ~'83 through '03 or maybe '04 and came in a lot of versions through the years, right? Are you looking at sleeving the block for a repair, or are you considering sleeving all six holes to be able to over bore for more volume? Just curious.
You certainly are correct, shoot I am surprised it is that well known even in the hot rod community, that's cool to know. And yeah it was produced in America up until 1996 which is the first year they introduced obd2... Which is another battle I am facing but I think I am gunna go the halted standalone ecu route... Anyway it was produced in Japan until 03 I believe and the jdm motors are much sought after. I have two blocks one from my non turbo motor and I have a twin turbo block as well. They are very similar except for a couple of oil squirters. Whichever is in better condition I would like to sleeve all six holes for a much larger bore. I've heard it can be done and read some posts and seem some videos in the mid 400s for horsepower and the response is silly and they rev out to 10-12k. Seems like it would be unique to do as well. "you may as well sleeve it and put in Q45 pistons from the VH45 in there. A .040 over VH piston is 94mm so that would put you somewhere around 3.5l. It's been done in a VG30E before." This is the original post on a different forum that got me thinking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Another thing to consider with sleeving all of the holes, is to have the mains align bored or honed. There can be some block/main distortion from all of the added stresses (sleeve interference fit). If you did this in my shop, with or without the sleeving, I would be recommending the align hone anyway. Sleeve first, then align hone to establish main bore roundness and alignment, then square (deck) the block. Once that is done, bore the sleeves so that the holes are perpendicular to the deck.
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Originally Posted by 69Bee
Now that sounds like the ticket. Seems like you may have done this once or twice lol. Is there any information that I need myself before bringing it to a shop like yourself, or can I bring it to a shop with the idea in mind that I want it to spin 10k and sleeve it and they will know how far they can go in terms of bigger bore and stroke or not so much? In all reality I would like to learn to do the machine work myself but for one the equipment is all kind of expensive and I'm not sure how many blocks I can ruin before I am broke lol. Thank you much for the informative answer tho, best description I have seen of how to do it.
You definitely CANNOT just carry your block to any machine shop and expect to get back what you want. There are tons of old posts here about guys spending big $$$ and being disappointed with what they got back. And just because a shop tells you "...we sleeve blocks all the time" doesn't mean they know beans about sleeving all the bores, punching it to the max while keeping it reliable, and balancing it to spin. You need a good "performance machine shop" that understands building race engines where the guy is smarter than you about how it's done, but still listens to you for what you want, and explains why it'll work or why not - the shop that can point to a proven track record of successful builds. My $0.02 on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capecreations21
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Originally Posted by rspears
That's some good advice for sure, and yes I did see a couple of posts involving people having bad luck with block builds in my quick search for wherei should post this.. Anyway, I couldn't agree more a performance shop is definitely the way to go, I guess I asked if I could just explain what I want because I don't know how to calculate the specs myself, that would I imagine be the easiest way is if I knew exactly what I wanted the dimensions to be?
That's where the "...guy (that) is smarter than you about how it's done, but still listens to you for what you want" part plays in. You don't need to be able to give a good guy all of the measurements. That's what you're paying him for. I'd point you to a shop that I would trust for that kind of a build, but you'd be traveling about 1700 miles one way :eek: :LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by Capecreations21
I've got a complete machine shop with equipment for doing engines to national/world record levels----If you brought that engine to me -I would listen until you got up to the point of wanting it to turn 10-12,000 rpm and make more power than a twin turbo set up---------
Why don't you just swap in an LS7, Coyote Hell Cat, etc ??????
Your engine doesn't have the material strength to hold together in one assembly something that turns 10-12k and makes hp that you are looking for-------
Further-----to have a vehicle that turns those rpm's at those power levels , the clutch/flywheel and other parts SFI ratings plus containment (Scattershields) would add so much weight and difficulty to work on the car--------
The lube system and valve train on it will be $$$$$$$$$$ of F1 levels
Sorry but time for my 2nd cup of coffee
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Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Yes you are absolutely right if you get down to the actual cost to power ratio there are a hundred and one way better possibilites than getting that NA block to scream. The reason I am so intrigued is because it is not done very often so it would be a fun and mostly unique build to have a super quick NA platform for that particular car. I didn't think really 400 or so HP was more than what the internals could actually hold, I figure there are plenty of TT set ups where the clutch and flywheel hold 800-1k HP but does the fact that it is spinning at such wild RPMs change how the clutch and flywheel will engage and disengage as far as strength?
Its called CENTRIFICAL force----It will explode and you need a certified containment /adapter for it plus the drive shaft also------and front pullies/dampner.
This will not be an engine combo for the streets /roads and for competition you will need many things SPI certified yearly plus roll cage/chassis/seat/safty harness as well as driver suit/helmut/gloves
A 10-12k rpm engine has no place on the street/roads
Excuses me if this sounds ridiculous because I really don't know much about this topic at all as I am no engine builder, but i am just confused I suppose about how the fact that it is rotating quicker becomes an issue even though it is under the same or less power than other street cars.. Not that I am saying it should be on the street I just want a better understanding of the concept, thank you for putting up with my uneducated comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Capecreations21, you were on target about not being understood on a hot rod forum! The smaller, lighter engines in many European vehicles (especially the exotics) push their peak torque and HP way, way out on the curves compared to American Iron V8's. Heck, some of the Ferrari's hit Peak Torque above 9000rpm, and push out to 13,300rpm or higher. Now I'm not saying that your Nissan V6 is going to hit 12,000rpm, but you need to find a shop that works on the tuner crowd's engine needs vs American V-8's. There's a reason you don't take your Ferrari to a Chevy dealership for service, and the same applies to machine shops, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capecreations21
I hope you'll keep posting your progress on the Nissan V-6, especially a You-Tube video of it cranking out >10,000rpm on the dyno, complete with the graph of power output!
For sure I see where you're coming from.. If a specific shop works machining X American block the steps and procedures could be different than that of X tuner block. I am from cape cod and on the island I think maybe there are 2 machine shops neither one specializing in anything in particular and I think this is the type of job to go to someone who has built high revving motors before like you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Everything is currently taken apart and out of the block and the heads are bare but I'm sure it will be several months until I find a shop to build it for me and the money to do so, def will post pics along the way however for sure. Got to keep doing research. There was a post saying that the Infiniti q45 motor has 94mm forged Pistons that you could potentially bore the Nissan block out to fit. Maybe that's an option.
If you find you want to ship your block to a shop in say Arizona or ??? you might check with your closest Fastenal store. They have a regional centralized shipping system to keep their stores stocked, and they're mostly lightly loaded, with lots of room open on the trucks. You have to pack your item for loading, and any crating is up to you, but a friend needed to get a differential to a buddy and he strapped it to a salvaged pallet, carried it to the Fastenal and they shipped it to another store for a whole lot less than the LTL Freight companies were quoting. Just a thought....
a couple of questions-is your block cast iron or aluminum? Whats the stroke of the crank stock and of the one you want to use? Bore size now? Valve size and stem diameter?
You won't pick up much in cubic inches on small bore engines, even less if they are 4 or 6 cylinder
as for rpms, size of crank bearings make big differences-we are using Honda sized ( less than 2.0 vs over 2 inch rods and now are using 9 roller bearings on camshafts vs old 5 bushings, valve spring pressure is so high that the cams want to break------also valve lifts are near an inch where as stockers around 1/2 inch.
Problem of big bore size weakens block and its hard to save deck strength for head attachment, many blocks studs will go to bottom main area and attach load to same area as crankshaft bore.
Measure your block length for cylinder bore spacing-----maybe theres a head out there that can be adapted ---I'm thinking something maybe like the Nascar RO7 stuff
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Originally Posted by rspears
Unless I somehow watch enough YouTube videos and and win the lottery I think I will have to ship it somewhere lol. So thank you I will keep that in mind when I go to pack it, I like the idea that I get to pack it myself as well... I've seen some freak shows when it comes to freight shipping. Any particular shop in Arizona? I could google them maybe even call or email just to see what they think.
So why wouldn't you consider shipping it to me??? sometimes you can get a core block locally cheaper than shipping-------
Why didn't you reply to my questions????
Looks like Jerry & I were typing at the same time, but it doesn't affect my reply.
I said Arizona because that's where 69Bee's from, and you liked his advice early in the thread. If it were me I'd be researching OUS tuner info, magazines, etc, looking for the machine shops where the hotshot tuner guys that are pushing serious HP from their OEM blocks go for their specialty work. You're in a different league than just stroking a GM, Ford or Chrysler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capecreations21
The Fastenal tip is just one that I picked up from a friend, and it may or may not work for you.
So you just think that I stroke Ford, Gm, and Mopar engines????????
If I remember from back in those days of that Nisson engine-didn't they bypass the 24 hours Daytona race because of reliability issues??? I think they did win at Road America or Mid Ohio (in their class)
And I did straighten out a conversion swap of a twin turbo engine into a street car-don't remember just what year or number it was but they had smashed the oil pan up against the oil pump pickup and it would draw any oil flow at much above idle/lower rpms---------
Capecreations21, don't give up. I remember when we where trying to find a machine shop to bore and sleeve a 5.9 cummins to take it to .0120 over. No one around here wanted to do it. They all said it wouldn't hold stock power levels let a lone 1200+hp. But we took it to a machine shop that specializes in tractor pulling engines and he got it done. And guess what? A lot of people are doing it now. I'm sure we weren't the first to do it. We stole the idea from my friend's friend who has a nasty super stock pulling tractor. Now a days guys are building deck plate engines and sleeving them to get them to hold the power. Mainly 6.7s. Apparently above 1800hp modified stock blocks can only take so much. :LOL:
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Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Sorry I didn't mean to leave you hanging I was on my lunch break when I replied to the threa yesterday afternoon, I didn't know this information off hand so I didn't want to post misleading or wrong information. Anyway, the block is cast iron and the bore is 3.43 and the stroke is 3.27. I would like to bore and stroke it out as much as reliably possible so I really don't know how far you can go with that particular block before the walls are too thin. The valve size and stem diameter are as follows on this chart because I really don't know what these all mean..
Diameter 35mm
Margin .050"
O/A Length 103.13mm
Seat Width .075"
Stem Diameter 6mm/.2362”
Tip Length 3.5mm
Top of Head 17° Dish
Underhead Angle/Radius x5/16"
what does machine work like this go for? Again sorry for the late reply
One of the reasons for turboing it was to get a siqnificant increase in hp---------If you can't make the motor bigger you need to supercharge it---one method is turbos------- There is no way reasonably possible to increase the size of a 3 liter engine to get enough HP to make a really big change on the STREET--------however, if you are going to CLASS race it where you must be NA and stock type engine you could get this one out to around 3.500 and stay with your stock stroke crank--- you'll only pick up 4 or 5 cubes.
If you are going to STREET race stop lite against other ricers, change the heads and add the turbos----- Or put a hemi in it !!!!!!!!!
Really----just about half way down on my first cup of coffee---------you will not increase the size of a small 3.0 liter block enough to go the expence--------Swap in late model alum V8
Hemi or Ford won't fit---you'll need to do LS type
If all said and done it comes to the vg na block not being build able the way I want I will probably go the vh45 swap, which is an Infiniti v8 motor with forged internals and aluminum block and heads. So many people have done LS type swaps, and I am trying to just do something a little bit different and unique, not the vh swaps are unheard of but certainly less common than LS. That being Said i now have two questions that have Been rasied from Reading your response and those would be... If the vg block is sleeved to 3.3 or 3.5 like you say can you then add the twin turbo set up to that or is the compression too high at this point? The second question is if the vg block turns out to not be the route.. Could the vh block be sleeved, or could any LS type block be sleeved to achieve those rpm numbers? Thank you much! And again sorry that my knowledge base for this is very poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
I'm gonna risk another reply here. I looked back at my earlier posts and I don't see that I said anything negative or "cold". I simply stated that if you're wanting to build an OUS engine to wrap up like a Ferrari MY OPINION is that you'd be best served finding a shop that works on those kind of engines on a regular basis (note Ryan's comment about finally finding a guy that specialized in engines for tractor pulls?). Seems quite logical in my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Capecreations21
CC21, you're confused about sleeving a block. Sleeving is used to repair a flaw that destroys the integrity of a cylinder wall, or like Ryan mentioned on his diesel comment, to give a stronger cylinder wall than the cast iron offers, and has nothing to do with "making numbers". It's a repair option, and in your case you've described boring the block out to the point that the bores are into the cooling water jackets, then installing sleeves that give you a bigger bore than you could have ever had before. Like Jerry mentioned, you're only going to pick up a few cubic inches doing this, and the cost to volume increase isn't gonna be cheap. The resulting compression will be determined by your head and piston selection, along with the stroke you finalize - how much you squeeze the charge into the combustion chamber in the head.
How does Ferrari push their peak power out to ~9000 rpm's? They use ultra light valves, rockers, lifters, pushrods, and extreme spring pressures to counter the inertia of the valves; ultra light alloy rods/caps; lightweight forged cranks, etc, etc to make the reciprocating parts as light as they can while keeping them strong, then balancing the whole shebang to make it smooth as silk.
I'd say that you're on the right track with your comment about doing a cleanup bore on the vg block (sleeved or not sleeved, depending on how much money you want to throw at it) and then running the twin turbo's. Sounds like you've been reading too much on tuner forums where guys who've never done it are talking about "what if I just bore out my 3L to use 426 Hemi pistons!! Wouldn't that be cool?"
With that I'll back away from this discussion, suggesting that you might want to get a book on engines and study up a bit. You've obviously got the desire, and wanting to do something "different" is a very good thing, again in my opinion. Hope you have a great day!
When I was racing my Corvette in '10 I had a guy tell me the best way to get better horsepower at higher rpm's on a 5.9 cummins was to destroke it. I thought he was crazy. Turns out he was right but the cost to do it was crazy so I never tried it. Although his truck is a top contender in the diesel scene now. :LOL: Sometimes crazy ideas work, sometimes you spend double. Been there.
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Originally Posted by rspears
Thank you for the reply and I didn't see any negativity in these comments, def saw some people trying to teach me some things tho so thank you guys for that. To be honest yes it kind of is a lot of tuner forums but only because achieving high horsepower numbers on the NA without adding turbos has been done so few times that all there is are ideas and theories about what could or might work, very few actually build logs or specs to follow. That being said yes I do need to invest in an engine building book and study it from square one. The vh45 Infiniti motor is a swap that has been done frequently and that is a v8 with all forged lightweight internals so that is why I was thinking MAYBE that could be a possibility to turn that kind of range, whether or not it will work is a whole different story but at least with the v8 maybe there is at least more to gain to bore it but then again maybe not.
I didn't read anywhere where he said anything negative about Jerry or his sons. He just mentioned maybe send the block to Arizona. Maybe he figured Jerry is too busy to do it or who knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
CapeC21, there's a good shop in New Bedford, been around for decades. I went to school with 1 of the owners.
I can introduce you to them and you can discuss your ideas face to face and maybe save yourself some troubles / coin / etc..
It's always nice to have the chance to work with someone that you're comfortable with.
Sorry but I don't see it. He's entitled to an opinion too. We're all just trying to help out a young rodder.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
This sounds like a solid option, I didn't even know there was a shop out there to be honest with you. Talking to someone person to person rather than on the phone or by email sounds a hell of a lot easier too, and not having to ship the block? That would be killer. Lol. Thanks for the tip! I apologize to anyone who got hit with the negativity and hope you all keep posting and continue to voice your views and opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by 34_40
Well, I don't know where to start this morning. I don't want to have to post a complete resume so CC21 can see my qualifications and background plus a brief to lengthy history of my rcords and accomplishments-------so I'll just make a couple short comments and move on to servicing the furnace--------
Roger ( and its OK with me because it does add a little tempo to this site that seems to be going away) has a history (personal slant) here of trying to belittle my posts based on my actual history and abilities. That's OK 100% as it is still a lot better level than the stuff that's around the net-----
CC21 appears to be a young'un just getting involved with high performance and custom work. I'm fine with him wanting a higher performance inport fart can type car, but this thread has gotten off track about discussing sleeves--------
Sleeves weren't mainly developed to repair a cracked cylinder, but they have been used for that---Sleeves were in all kinds of larger industrial , farming type engines and let the designers use a higher quality material for the cylinder bore in a block that was made of a lesser quality/mixture/casting process. The use of sleeves let the peeps build an engine with a harder, higher density metal that worked better for ring/piston wear and sealing.
Yes sleeves have been used to repair cracked blocks and to be able to make the engines bore size bigger with an uniform thickness compared to an over bored cylinder that had varing thickness and cracking tendencies-they are used a lot for classic type motors that new blocks aren't available for.
I've used a lot of sleeves-I've put them into NEW blocks------even at stock or reduced bore sizes--- for class requirements-------- and also to have a better ring surface for some special rings that weren't compatable with old time cast iron mixtures.
Now with aluminum blocks, sleeves are pretty much a necessity, inless you want to do a very high $$$$$process on the alum and a diamond honimg process that gets $$$$$$$$$$
But as far as CC21 wanting to have a street car he shouldn't be wanting a 12,000 rpm type engine --------------
CC21 if you want my credentials let me know and I'll PM you
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Originally Posted by DennyW
Wow! If I'm as bad as all that maybe Bill/mrmustang needs to block my username permanently!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton
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Originally Posted by rspears
AHHHHhhhhh... sarcasm after lunch... now get back out to that garage and spin a wrench on the 32! Right after you give the wife a kiss... oh, Bones gets a cookie from the crew too! c'ya! 8-)
Maybe you should look into a m irror
Not quite sure what you mean by that Jerry.
I was just havin' a little fun at Mr. Spears expense.
Not sure why this thread is still causin' such a fuss, you didn't want the job, you were tryin' to talk the guy out of the build and go with an LS!
Now... where's my mirror?? :LOL::LOL:
34-40
I and others have experience of doing some of this type work for years------I have a complete machine shop and the reason I do is because there weren't shops that could/would do what I needed done to race the level that I did-----
I have been drag racing since the mid 50s-------thru the 60s worked on ground equipment for United airlines, during the 70s had the reputation of having the most beautiful fuel cars ever, Revell built model kits, Johnny Lightening also plus 1320inc did die cast models.
Our cars set track records, Low ET, National Records plus unofficial world records( Official World Speed records require 2 way run and its hard to get stopped going from starting line to the staging area fence)
Many magazine articals and center folds, even in Esquire month before Burt Reynolds was in Cosmopoliton!!!!!!!!!
I have done top fuel, funny car, pro stock, stock block Indy cars, dirt tract stock cars plus sprinters and midgets and followed all that with WKA Karting with my sons on the road race tracks of America including Black Hawk Farms, Gingerman, Mid-Ohio, Indy IRP, Putman, Kershaw, St. Louis, Charlotte, Daytona International and others------ we built some of our own chassis and we won races plus numerous championships including WKA World Champ in 125 Shifter class --------
As for sleeving blocks----------there probably isn't anyone on here besides Pat and me that has done much of it-------
And it ain't the route of just using a crate engine that you can get free shipping on-----
I generally like Rogers participation on here , but I'm getting pretty fed up with devoting time to discuss methods/reasons of doing something and getting picked at by anyone with no experience or knowledge of just how and why something is done in a certain way----------
If this continues---I'll be gone--------and if the site isn't changed to where we can post pictures taken with a camera without downsizing, off site storage, etc---I may take a leave also---------
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