Gen I (1969) SBC 350 NEED HELP, TICKING SOUND

First time post, but view the forum a lot and need a little help from you SBC guys. I have a 1969 SBC 350 ,DH heads, 4bl edlebrock, sitting in my 76 CJ5. Sorry, not your typical hotrod. But I have done a frame off restore, rebulit trans, and alot of work to the jeep. Engine has run great the entire time I have owned it, and I recently installed a new Edlebrock 1406 4bl carb to replace the previous 1406 that was on there (rebuilding and putting on another engine).

The jeep is not a daily driver, but last few times I had it cranked, I was fine tuning my choke/adjustment, etc.), also recently installed a new HEI distributor (little recent background). Wanted to add those two comments in case they are in some way related to sound, but I dont think it is. I took it out recently and heard a light ticking, not a deep knocking, but almost sounds like a exhaust leak sound. Have no exhaust leaks, and at first it sounded like it was coming from my bellhousing area. Ive cranked it and listened in different places, but the more I do it, I find i cant really narrow down a definite location. I hear it under vehicle, between bellhousing and flywheel, checked starter gear clearance, its ok, I somewhat hear it around and in front of the distributor on top of engine. It speeds up and slows down exactly with engine RPMs. Without trying to self diagnose myself like im at the doctor, where are the only possibilites I can come up with. Im hoping you guys can help me cancel out some possibilites, and/or point me in a direction that im not looking or considering. Im mechanically inclined but have not been through every engine's troubleshooting and want to try and limit tearing the whole thing down in search of something that could be simple.

First thought was i may have something loose in bellhousing/clutch/trans, pulled trans off and away from flywheel, still hear sound, so I can cancel that out.

Thought I may have a loose wobbly rocker, took covers off and they all seem to have the same amount of left/right play without any looking suspicious.

Thought it may be something hitting inside of bottom of oil pan, havent pulled it because its muddy and for some reason that gasket is a bi*** to get on and lined up. I also thought it could be oil pump in pan, but dont know much about that particular pump to know how that would fail or make noise. When I crank up, it does have oil pressure, but I have experienced low pressure at low idle (maybe below 20psi). but no erratic up and downs. also thought about where distributor shaft connects to pump, but im guessing if its pumping its ok?

I first noticed it when i was tweeking with my new carb, could I have a bad adjustment or advance or something that could make this sound. Im not real familiar with advance and how carb works with distributor, vacuum, etc. Also could any tweeks have affected timing?

Also, ive considered maybe something with flywheel, but have not pulled it and from just looking at it everything looks ok. Its a manual trans so i dont have torque converter or flex plate. Is there something else on the flywheel between it and engine shaft?

Front pulley on harmonic balancer wobbles a bit, but i think its a warped pulley, and it was like that when I bought vehicle, balancer looks fine.

I want to try and not tear everything apart, when it could be something simple i have not thought of, so Im hoping you guys can help, ask questions, ect. I do know it could be bearings in engine, but dont want to move that direction until i can cancel out the more simple possibilities. And it did start after I was messing with my carb, which I find a little odd, and I can hear it between carb and distributor, so its not just a below engine sound.

Thanks in advance for your help.

From an earlier post where you were trying to ID the engine, Tech pointed out that it was originally either a Powerglide or TH350 engine. Wondering about the pilot bearing/bushing in the crank, which indexes the tranny input shaft into the back of the crank?

with valve covers removed run engine and look to see if the pushrods are spinning-if not, cam/lifter wiped--------

If it's not a cracked flexplate (because there is no flexplate) or the cam going south, then I would suspect an exhaust leak. They can sound like a tick-tick. Did you tighten the flywheel onto the crank and torque to spec while you had the trans out?

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Get a stethoscope and isolate the general location of the noise. Might be the timing chain, a rocker, a lifter,
a flex plate, or whatever. Then, once you isolate the general location, you can get more specific with the
find.

And if you don't have a stethoscope a section of wooden broom handle works quite well.

How about snow shovel handle???????

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

How about snow shovel handle???????

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Works for me, any round piece of wood will do, all I've used for years.

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Originally Posted by NTFDAY

And if you don't have a stethoscope a section of wooden broom handle works quite well.

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I've got a big old Craftsman screw driver that's almost 2' long, 1/2" blade and an ear against the end of the handle works good to find noises, too. I'm hoping that Jerry's idea of a wiped lobe on the cam is not right, but that's a really good possibility.

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Originally Posted by rspears

I've got a big old Craftsman screw driver that's almost 2' long, 1/2" blade and an ear against the end of the handle works good to find noises, too. I'm hoping that Jerry's idea of a wiped lobe on the cam is not right, but that's a really good possibility.

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Whatever works. I've always used wood to eliminate the possibility of getting shocked or shorting something out and I've had too many vehicles that didn't have fan shrouds and sometimes I can be a klutz.:3dSMILE::LOL::LOL:

AH but I bought a cheapo stethoscope so when the fan hit my Craftsman screwdriver, I didn't have
a screwdriver in my ear and the word CRAFTSMAN imprinted on my forehead. Or some broom
company's logo. It is interesting that the sound from a stethoscope is different than a broomstick.

its the location of the sound that we're looking for------doesn't matter what it sounds like------its going to be a lifter/cam lobe, rocker, wrist pin, connect rod or main----
when you pin point it you can then determine what it is
but forward of dist on rt side-its lifter/cam lobe cylinder #8

By the way, I have several unique Craftsman screwdrivers:
one that I dropped on a battery and welded itself across the terminals and I pulled off before the battery exploded
one that I got caught in the fan belt when listening for a front alternator bearing
one that I used for a chisel and hammered the shank thru the plastic handle
one that I put a fairly long pipe on to use as a pry bar
one that I had in the flywheel teeth when I forgot and bumped the starter
one that I stirred paint with and forgot to wipe off
and probably a few others I forgot about

Attachment 65150

CGW3, as you can tell we're a bit bored with the cold weather and low winter post count syndrome, so you're the one who benefits ;):D I hope you'll hang in and close the loop with what's happening with your CJ. My '05 TJ is just about due for a Hemi takeout engine package, so I've got an interest in your Jeep:D:D

I had one a couple weeks ago that drove me crazy trying to locate it.
Long story short, the spring that holds back the bendix in the starter had broken and the starter drive gear would just sneak out and tap on the flywheel.
The stethascope got me close and after removing the flywheel cover the noise got louder, when turning the flywheel by hand I could hear it... still took me a bit to realize it was the starter drive!

Thread direction takes a U-turn.....

I'll have to tell a story on myself. Had an old beater pickup, '91 Ford F150 regular cab, longbed. I drove it to Firebird one Friday night to do tech and shut it off as usual. End of the evening, I went to start it and the crank wouldn't turn. I thought maybe I had wadded up a rod bearing, so called my buddy to come get me. We towed it to his 40' x 90' shop and I began pulling the motor for a teardown. Got the motor out and separated from the transmission and all of it laying on the floor. Put the motor on an engine stand and began disassembly. When I pulled the starter motor, what do you think dropped out on the floor? Yep, a bendix tooth that had broken off and wedged between the bendix and the flywheel ring gear.

When the truck wouldn't start, I let the truck roll downhill and dumped the clutch to try to release the crank. All it would do was to skid the rear tires. Had I tried the same thing going backward, the tooth would have fallen out and I would have been able to start the truck with the starter until I could replace the starter later when it would have been more convenient. As it was, it cost me about $1200 to do an engine rebuild because it needed it anyway.

Let this be a lesson to you. Try to push it forward and then backward before you pull the motor.

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Originally Posted by rspears

From an earlier post where you were trying to ID the engine, Tech pointed out that it was originally either a Powerglide or TH350 engine. Wondering about the pilot bearing/bushing in the crank, which indexes the tranny input shaft into the back of the crank?

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As far as I could tell when I had the jeep transmission off, it has a bushing. Im not sure if it was previously swapped from bearing to bushing to accomodate t150 trans shaft. I know I would be able to tell if a bearing was bad, but as far as the bushing, im guessing its brass and they dont wear too bad, and it did not look like the outer surface had any space or play

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

with valve covers removed run engine and look to see if the pushrods are spinning-if not, cam/lifter wiped--------

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I will try this, but ive never looked for push rods spinning, didnt know they did, so I have never noticed, thank you/

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

If it's not a cracked flexplate (because there is no flexplate) or the cam going south, then I would suspect an exhaust leak. They can sound like a tick-tick. Did you tighten the flywheel onto the crank and torque to spec while you had the trans out?

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Im not sure that I have a flexplate, unless it is mounted on the engine side of the flywheel. Not real familiar with a flexplate, but arent those with auto trans? I have never had the flywheel off, so never had bolts out. But that may be something to check, as the owner before me may have done that. Does anyone know torque specs for flywheel bolts?

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Originally Posted by robot

Get a stethoscope and isolate the general location of the noise. Might be the timing chain, a rocker, a lifter,
a flex plate, or whatever. Then, once you isolate the general location, you can get more specific with the
find.

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I will try the stethoscope, the engine is loud enough on its own that its really hard to get an idea by sticking you head in the engine compartment.

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Originally Posted by 34_40

I had one a couple weeks ago that drove me crazy trying to locate it.
Long story short, the spring that holds back the bendix in the starter had broken and the starter drive gear would just sneak out and tap on the flywheel.
The stethascope got me close and after removing the flywheel cover the noise got louder, when turning the flywheel by hand I could hear it... still took me a bit to realize it was the starter drive!

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I have thought about this. with my bellhousing off, I was able to look at gap between flywheel and starter drive gear, there is a very small gap, but you can see light between it. Is this something that you were able to see without turning flywheel? or did it only expose itself when you turned? also, was this something that may only hang up right after its been cranked? but spring may work itself back into place as it sits?

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Originally Posted by cgw3

Im not sure that I have a flexplate, unless it is mounted on the engine side of the flywheel. Not real familiar with a flexplate, but arent those with auto trans? I have never had the flywheel off, so never had bolts out. But that may be something to check, as the owner before me may have done that. Does anyone know torque specs for flywheel bolts?

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What Tech's saying is that a cracked flexplate is one of the first things to check with this symptom, but you don't have one. Torque for your flywheel bolts is 60 ftlbs, using LockTite thread locker - Small Block Chevrolet V8 Engine Specs | Torque Specs - Cylinder Numbering - Firing Order - Distributor Rotation - SB Chevy 267 305 327 350 400 Cid

Sounds like you have a bronze pilot bushing, which I prefer over a bearing. They last just about forever.

Why do pushrods spin?????

Because------on flat tappet camshafts, the lifter bottoms have a slight curveature to them and the camshaft lobes are ground at a very slight angle------this angle lets the pressure thats transferred to the cam from the valve springs hold the cam back into the block and also control forward/rear slop caused by the angled gear on distributor/oil pump drive----
ALSO----this angle will cauce the lifter to spin on the cam lobe presenting a continuous change in the contact wear pattern that spreads the wear pattern and increases the life of the cam/lifters. If for some reason the lifter can't spin--indicating a worn lobe, the cam will be wiped out within a VERY SHORT time cycle. If the lifters can spin, they will spin the pushrods----so non spinning pushrods will indicate a worn cam

This doesn't happen on roller cams-----------

Here's a diagram illustrating what Jerry is talking about....I think the radius on the lifter crown is about 50 inches and the ramp on the lobe is about 0.004" difference side to side....some fellows will tell you that the lobe difference is 0.0025" on OEM stuff and more like 0.005" on aftermarket stuff....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...lobe_angle.jpg

Here's another that shows the point of contact being off center, that's what allows the lobe to spin the lifter....
http://s171.photobucket.com/user/vet...db730.jpg.html

Anyone wanting a flat tappet camshaft to survive should read and heed this tutorial....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks

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Originally Posted by cgw3

I have thought about this. with my bellhousing off, I was able to look at gap between flywheel and starter drive gear, there is a very small gap, but you can see light between it. Is this something that you were able to see without turning flywheel? or did it only expose itself when you turned? also, was this something that may only hang up right after its been cranked? but spring may work itself back into place as it sits?

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On mine the starter drive would slide out and the flywheel / flexplate would tap it and push it back into the starter. the running engine vibration would then shake the bendix back out until it was tapped by the flywheel again.. rinse and repeat... I only found it while turning the flywheel/flexplate by hand. And I noticed the clearance disappeared between the two gears.

ok guys,still stuck. Here's an update on what all Ive done. Checked starter/flywheel, no issues there. Bought a stethoscope (kind with metal rod) and it amplified the sound but I could not pin it down, pretty much heard it everywhere, with a slight increase in rear of engine from top of distributor all the way around flywheel. When I touch metal stethoscope to block, I can hear bearing (im guessing), but they sound like they are rolling as usual with no odd sounds to make me believe that one could be out. Im assuming that with a stephoscope, you should be able to hear a bearing even if it is lubricated, if touching the location of the bearing. If not, please correct me, and this could be my culprit. Ive done everything but pull the flywheel off, drop my pan, or pull the engine. I want to limit and unnecessary dis-assembly if possible. My only thinking outside of it being a cam bearing, would be somewhere on the distributor-gear on cam-down to oil pump and oil pump itself. The gear on the rear of the cam that turns distributor, does it have a pin through it that could have worked loose, or are there any parts from there down to the oil pump that could fail and should be looked at? If you can suggest any other culprits , please let me know. Thanks Guys

In post #18 you said you were going to look at the pushrods with the engine running, verifying that each one is spinning which is one step to eliminating a wiped cam lobe from the list of gremlins. Did you do that?
If you did then my next step would probably be to adjust the valves to eliminate the lifters from the list.

I don't think he wants to get his hands dirty

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Originally Posted by rspears

In post #18 you said you were going to look at the pushrods with the engine running, verifying that each one is spinning which is one step to eliminating a wiped cam lobe from the list of gremlins. Did you do that?
If you did then my next step would probably be to adjust the valves to eliminate the lifters from the list.

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I did check pushrods and they are all fine.

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Originally Posted by cgw3

I did check pushrods and they are all fine.

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Just to be sure, you understand that this is to check that the lifters are rotating on the cam lobe, which in turn causes the pushrod to rotate while the engine is running, right? Wiping a cam lobe has become a much more common event in the last twenty years or so due to changes in oils to keep from fouling CAT's ....

Thanks for your input Jerry. I have no problem getting my hands dirty, as run a crew, a shop, and manage a 140acre golf course and I am the only one capable of working on 15+ pieces of specialized diesel equipment, each one more complicated than your little firerbird, on a daily basis. I prefer to work smarter, and seek out some information from people who have maybe been in the same spot, to get a little feedback, so that Im not pulling a engine because an issue cant be pinpointed right away, and it turn out to be something simple that doesn't have definite tell-tell signs. And giving that this platform, a forum, is sometimes used to seek out advice from other mechanics or maybe find someone that ran into something like this, if makes me wonder how shitty of a day one must have to troll with stupid comments. (sort of like this one, but i had a couple of spare mins when I got done picking my nose). Im sure you know all about small block chevys, big block chevys, living a lonely, sad life...but I have a feeling, that may be all you are somewhat relevant for.

I will find my issue with my engine, hopefully with some insight here, but most likely on my own. But I dont have all the spare time to be pulling a engine out under the oak tree in front of my trailer, tearing it down, then scratching my head and ball simultaneously, wondering what that dern tickin noise is. So before i do what you do, as my last resort, i ask around to a few guys that maybe do work on these all day, everyday, and has maybe run into this before....hence, "research"(smarter). Im sure you are a well-to-do- person, but like a said, I had a couple of spare mins on my hands, which are dirty by the way, and thought the quick reply was necessary.

Well, I guess you don't have any idea of my qualifications or abilities and aren't interested in any help from me-
I'll let these other guys help you with info maybe to support my experience and accomplishments.
As far as working on 15+ pieces of complicated diesel equipment I could probably list several that I have worked on also. ( I have a 7.3 f350), In the Army I had an MOS of a tank mechanics helper, but drove a jeep part of the time. In civilian life I have a multi car garage with 2 floor jacks plus a chain lift to the rafters, an early 1940s lathe and vise plus 3 grinders and a drill press
My firerbird doesn't have an engine in it at the present time but when I do put it back together I'll flush the brake fluid and double check the exhaust header bolts.
Yep---I'm leading a lonely sad life, but I am alive----and if I make it to my next birthday, I'll be 75 on March 13-----

Maybe some of these other guys will stand behind me and maybe some will speak up, but a couple of things for sure-If my hands are dirty, I don't pick my nose or scratch my head or balls with dirty hands-------

I would wager that I have changed more cam bearings, camshafts, lifters,etc than the others posting on here put together total. So when you find and fix your problem please post the results and with some pictures of the parts would be nice.
I will remove myself from upsetting you any further and unless you personally ask won't answer any more to you, however I do reserve the option of participating in any discussion of it---

Hey CGW3 Life is short lighten up, its sad that a little commit like that would bother you.
Good luck on your engine.

cgw3,
Maybe I'm missing something? But, I read your thread twice and can't see that Jerry said anything bad enough to set you off like you went. Granted he did make a dirty hands remark, however he was one of the first responders to you asking you to check for push rod rotation, he then asked you two more times, even explained to you why they should be rotating. You did not answer him, and to my knowledge still haven't.
Personally, I think we need to stop killing the messenger(s). I will do as Jerry and leave you alone from this point on. But, if I was to add anything, I would probably add "check your new distributor's gear, to make sure it meshes correctly or isn't damaged.", as you stated in your OP that the noise started after your carb and dist change.
Done....

cgw3, I went back and re-read your initial post plus your updates. On the stethoscope, you will indeed hear components rotating in bearings, but they should be a dull roar, not any type of "tick". Your latest update said that your noise seems to be more focused on the intake area ahead of the distributor which points to cam/lifter. I think I'd adjust the valves to see if that changes your noise any.
You've got a new HEI distributor, but is it correct that the "tick" was there before you changed out the old dizzy for the HEI? The fact that your "tick" follows RPM pretty much eliminates the starter gear making an occasional hit, then rebounding. If it's indeed following rpm, and you're 100% sure there's no exhaust leak then it's either in the cam/valve train, rods/wrist pins, or mains. Like I said, I'd adjust the valves, either static following set procedures (eliminate clearance, then pre-load the prescribed amount as opposed to the spinning pushrod method) and go from there.
I hope you'll hang in and stick with us. I'm looking forward to some pictures of the CJ one of these days. Gotta love the older Jeeps upgraded to V8 power, especially with a stick!!

Thanks for the help guys. Ill let you know what I find.

I would check the distributor or maybe put the old one back in if that is about the time it started, maybe be something loose in the new one. Jonathan

changed carb----------dropped washer in manifold???????

The previous distributor was also a HEI, but cap broke and rotor damaged so I wont be able to put that one on to see? But the new one could be damaged and im going to pull and check. I dropped the pan this morning, and no metal in pan, so that makes me feel a little better. Just to cancel out distributor -shaft to pump and pump itself (is the only area I can really narrow down the sound) im going to pull pump and distributor and check those and the little keyway /pins. If theu look good ill probably move to the adjustment process with valves.

On these older 350s, could there be some play/to much clearance in the wrist pins and may them slap a little when cold and before it warms up?

Also considered fuel pump pushrod tapping? Have you guys seen this alot?