Benefits of balancing and blue printing ??????

so there I was last night just home from another 2 or so month of long hauling,staring at the 67 impala in the carport thinking over a brew benefits of rebuilding and balancing and blue printing the 327 small block in the car, I'm waiting for call backs on the rear door and the drivers fender didn't think locating body panels for a four door impala would be this slow.. Any who I was rolling first thought through pea sized brain thinking would it be worth it or just easier to turn that little sb into a stroker engine.... Any thoughts guys and yes I know it's a four door I just like over the two dr cause it really looks mean with right rake to her :D

Google GM Performance Crate Engines. You'll be money ahead to just pick out a complete engine and do the swap for what you want vs starting with your 327 and trying to build something.

Balancing and blue printing--------couple of terms that are used with a very wide meaning and interpitation----------


Blue printing is a term that described the process of moving factory parts and diminsions around to use the most favorable ones maximum or minimum to achieve best tolerance for performance-------
Mostly doesn't apply in the modern world of auto performance where we have so many after market performance parts that lots of times about the onle oem part used might be a camshaft thrust/retainer plate-----------


Balancing is process of equalizing stactic weights of all rotating assy components and end to end rod weights and recipt parts--pistons, rings, pins, small rod end----- making up bob weights and balancing crank end to end plus flywheel front dampner ----------


Then there is the world of crate engines---------usually---well I won't go there but if you need something maybe PM me or Pat------

Most places I've used and my understanding is to blue print is measuring everything on the engine, write it down, and correct the specs back to the tolearnces for that manufacturer's specs, to ensure longevity and performance.

Balancing is exactly what Jerry described. IMO definitely worth doing. On a lot of the 5.9 cummins cranks I've had done, they were 40 grams out from end to end. I wonder why they shake so bad stock? :LOL:

Blueprinting is what we did back in the day NHRA stock class racers still do today, as Jerry described. For example, the combustion chambers on my 68 GTO 400/350 HP were significantly larger than the spec sheet said. Milling the heads got me a nice compression increase while remaining legal.

still done but just falls under good machine work with some of the not so new tools it not very hard to keep every thing were i want it just did it to day on a ls engine . head work i cc most every thing and just finshed some heads for a Gm 520 bbc talldeck i building for a hillclimber then a set of all out hitman heads for a big block max effort that i rolled the chambers for Nos and more cc then set the intakes 2.460 were i wanted them and re worked the 188 ex valves some .changed valve angles and alot of stuff i will not bore you with .all would fall under the blue print and then some.then tomorrow i will be fitting lifters in a new boss block and if needed honing lifter bores for size i want. all falls under blue printing+ that you do not get in a gm crate engine.... let alone a good balance job but crate engines are much like fast food ..it may fit the bill but by far not a good meal and some do not know or care :)

Chevythunder, when you mention a 4-door '67 Chevy I assumed that you were looking at doing some engine work for a family cruiser that has a little more "pop", and not a full out performance build. If you're just looking at rebuilding the engine, or even doing a little stroker kit to squeeze out a little more HP and torque for a better passing gear than I'll stick by my original advice that you take a look at GM Performance crate engines. Not everyone needs or wants a full out build, but this is NOT to say look at the wide range of engines being offered today by fly-by-night shops under the moniker "crate engine", but to look specifically at GM Performance. I would have a lot more confidence in them than the no-name shops.

If you're looking for a high performance engine, with more bells & whistles than are offered by GM Performance then I would advise you to shop around and find a quality shop that you can trust to build what you want and can show you a successful history that's not just talk. One example that I would want to see might be recent record holders or guys who've been tall in the winners circle in their chosen race venue running drive lines from the shop, or maybe hard dyno sheets showing black & white performance data for their different levels of builds. A shop that wants to dyno your engine to break it in and prove it's right before it goes out the door says a lot for me, but then I may not know, or care :)

Best of luck making your decision. One way or another you're looking at spending a pile of money, so giving it some thought and taking a path that you're comfortable with is the right thing to do, IMO.

I forgot whether a 67 is a small bearing block/crank, but instead of looking it up--------------if your block is a small bearing block, you probably won't find many deals on a stroker crank---------if its 2 bolt main, you might want to add spayed bolt center caps-this would let you keep ORGINAL numbers block in your ride----------there are even some very good cast iron heads out there that could look more original and with a dual quad intake very period appearance------------


One of your highest fences to climb is the border issue with your duy/exchange rates-if you could come down below the border you could take an used engine back across if you brought one down for the work!!!!!!!!!!??????????????


If you are interested in numbers=you might not want to get your block decked, however it could be restamped with factory marks--------


Just so you know-crate engines aren't built by the factories( GM, Ford<ETC) but by the low bidder for a number of assemblies for the name companies and are probably the poorest choice of anything to use in a hotrod or muscle car---------


If you want something FACTORY-- find a late model wreck and get the entire drive train--------------


And one last thoughts----if someone doesn't understand exactly what blueprinting/balancing issues/benefits are, they won't be able to determine if what a shop tells them them is real or just a deal but most likely a feel-----------

like i said crate engines are ok for some they know who they are . i worked at a shop on them for a big name Gm seller of them.i seen how it was done so i think i know abit about them as to how it was done. as my good friend told me in this business along ago. i seen just about any thing run this was his answer to the very poor work and over 30 years of seening it get pass for good work. ..THE DYNO .. dyno deal should not be a deal breaker on small hp builds.many offer dyno time but not on small hp builds. some may offer you a better deal as this is a sevices not many are going to offer free time on one .look over your build and parts they may of padded it in the over all price. look very close some may used a lower guality parts or there brand part as a cheaper part that they relist under there name so not for customer to truley see were it.s coming from .fast of hand internet deal . to offer a free service on dyno time. fast of hand .. then some use the dyno deal as unreal numbers that driver online customers to them and have engines that may not have what they think .dyno should be done with what you going to use for carb . dist . headers . your going to use not what the shop has laying around .so engine tuned in the car or truck should be done. there many guys that play engine builder. they have no machine shop send evey thing out then walk in just a parts guy that screws parts together. hoping every thing is right and works this will get harded the more parts are being built oversees has what did fit last year now will not . hard to build a engine with no machines at your hands to tune in parts .to say they are engine builders with no tools there just like a guys that paint only 4 cars in there life think there body man or painter. would not be the sweat off a good body mans nuts. you could be better with local builder many have local fame of building a good engine and may or may not be a internet star . here is were a big engine shop can get stuff push threw the engine build end up with a so/so engine but pay for big adds and run big volume threw shop and worry about the engine quality later. there only may be intown one of the big name brand engines were theres over 40 engines running a round every day by a local builder.check builder machine shop rep a good engine even stock engine can be bulit by good machine work and building practise this has nothing to do the a dyno print out it just the right way to build a engine .. only a dumb ass would think that is no good with out paper .i seen many die shortly after the dyno run and guys still holding on to there papers .ON WORK DONE no ones is perfect but how you fix mistakes evey one as some it how fast you learn from it .some shop may have things in place to help a customer when this happens . but not from dumb things pepole do with engines. FLY BY NIGHT SHOPS ? well i seen many of the big name shop fall when the smaller shop keeps living why? overhead just bad in business many other things. i will not get in to . many did not get in to this businees to make fast money .they like or love doing the work not manny are getting rich building engines and if they have a engine machine shop knows there is not many fly by nigth shops .but i would bet there is more on the internet crate engine guys doing the fly by night heres how it works speed pro and many have easy builds that have been dyno then coppy there sheet move things around a bit to sound like you did it snap of photo of a nice shops there many photos on the net . now need a fake name or real one a address like 2121 mocking bird lane. then you find a cheap rebuilder of short blocks or long added you spin on the engine then festoon the engine head to toe some cheap china .that in no way any one could build it with real parts and not knockoff parts to look like you getting a hell of a deal.. sell it as a Crate Engine

My scrap includes several pounds of chips----lots of so called engine builders scrap is only packaging materials the parts came in---------at least those guys don't have to pay such high $$$$$$$$$$$$$ for haz mat disposal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

My scrap includes several pounds of chips----lots of so called engine builders scrap is only packaging materials the parts came in---------at least those guys don't have to pay such high $$$$$$$$$$$$$ for haz mat disposal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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yep i would think its funny but i need to get my hot tank pumped out :( and i burned thruw some Sunnen expendables it amaze me how many think it.s easy

you know bay city is small there shops i work with i would not lie it hurts when i see them get a nice job and did not come to my shop .even the guys i do not get along with i still have some respect for them. as i know how hard it is to make a liven at this game. but the deeper you get in this game and more tools /machines more money is needed its hard to say nothing thats why i did go to the net for work not many doing it . were there was not much a balancing act with local guys but i still do many engines around here i spend more time choosing my words when my customers tell me whos engine failed or did not run good. not one of the shops in this town i know are fly by night. some just offer more to there customers then others that has nothing to do with ego if you backit up with proven work and your customer are happy and your proud of them for taking a engine that many times has taken many hours that you may not see payment for all the time your blood sweat and some tears to build . then they win a race or big event or just say i took my car out and i am very happy with the build. this many times help keep you going on a bad day . last time i checked that is called good business and you care about what you send out the door with your name on it if you think thats it,s ego or its easy hop in the boots of a ower of a engine shop any one that works in this game

Thanks guys looks like the 327 going to be used in a different project down the road I'm going to look into all these ideas there is a few shops here I can look into but yes it's a family cruiser on the weekend warrior side lol, I want it to be something that makes people go really a four but how or even maybe why :confused: :LOL: but it's to the body for now, the rear door was for all intense and purposes attacked by a fork lift sad and the fender on the drivers side had a conversation with a piece of farm machinery..the fenders looks to be shorter then the ones on the two doors..I can find all kinds of panels for the two doors but the suppliers say it's a real light gauge of steel,I get some real strange looks from people when I walk in asking about them..good thing dumb looks are free right:) and many thanks guys this just opened up more options for me to look into

Chevythunder,
Glad that you're hanging in and considering your options. I hope you get where you want to be, and I look forward to hearing about your build as you go. I really think you ought to give the Chevrolet Performance Parts "crate" engines some consideration, and take time to call the dealer and get the net price vs list, as they discount pretty deep!

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

.....Just so you know-crate engines aren't built by the factories( GM, Ford<ETC) but by the low bidder for a number of assemblies for the name companies and are probably the poorest choice of anything to use in a hotrod or muscle car--------- If you want something FACTORY-- find a late model wreck and get the entire drive train--------------

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Jerry, not sure where you're getting your info on engines from Chevrolet Performance, but if you go direct to Chevy (link - Crate Engines: Powerful and Classic Chevy Race Engines | Chevrolet ) the engine listed there, from the base 290hp 350 to the LSX454R are all "GM Certified Parts" built in the GM Engine works, and carrying the full GM warranty (Call 800-450-4150 to chat with GM Performance Parts if you want to confirm my understanding.) I consider them a great alternative for someone who may not need a custom build. I'm pretty sure that the same goes for Ford engines from Ford Racing Parts Direct, but I have not talked to them today. They are Ford Certified Parts, I know that they are available from your local Ford Dealer, and I am pretty confident that Ford will say that they are built by Ford shops and carry Ford warranty. Buying a takeout engine from salvage is of course a great alternative, too!

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

..... a good engine even stock engine can be bulit by good machine work and building practise this has nothing to do the a dyno print out it just the right way to build a engine .. only a dumb ass would think that is no good with out paper .

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Pat,
You're taking one thing out of what I said, twisting my words and then calling me a dumb ass? If you look back, what I said (in part) was

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I would advise you to shop around and find a quality shop that you can trust to build what you want and can show you a successful history that's not just talk. One example that I would want to see might be recent record holders or guys who've been tall in the winners circle in their chosen race venue running drive lines from the shop, or maybe hard dyno sheets showing black & white performance data for their different levels of builds. A shop that wants to dyno your engine to break it in and prove it's right before it goes out the door says a lot for me.

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I offered what are important things to me based on my experience, and mostly that anyone can toss out a line of BS, but if they can back it up with some hard evidence that shows success it's more than hot air. Maybe that's successes by clients in pro ranks, time slips from the track, published results on their engines, or even a dyno run on the engine built for me. When a guy says, "This engine will put out 600HP and 700ftlbs of torque", but offers nothing to verify it how does one really know? I've said nothing about you, your shop, or your capabilities as a builder here and there's no reason for me to. I've simply stated what I consider things that a prudent customer looking for a complete, assembled engine might want to consider, and it's my opinion and nothing more. If that makes me a dumb ass then I guess I'll just have to accept that and move on. I'll not add anything further to this thread.

I know which GM engine plant (not subcontractor) my Fastburn 385 crate motor was built in. Although the warranty has expired, I still have the papers.

Oh well, guess I must be a dummy to, Roger!!!! Mine get ran in and a few pulls on the engine dyno, then when it's all installed and ready to go we go to Andy's and do the final tune-up on the chassis dyno!!!! Two dyno's, I must be a double dummy, huh?????:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

Seems to be a bit of confusion between what's a performance crate engine from one of the manufacturer's vs. a cheapy rebuild from XYZ rebuilders...... I've bought a few performance crate engines from Ford, and they were built by Ford!!!! Both Ford and Chevy now have a few "sealed" engines built and dyno'd to race in different classes, drag racing and circle track, as well as a whole host of street engines..... they are not built by some low bid sub contractor, either.

So how much did you spend for each of the dyno runs??? did they use your induction/exhaust/accessories????????


Did you run it thru the gears on the chassis dyno or just a pull from some selected rpm??????????

This is all so very interesting, but I have to go sort my socks . . .

Yes, we run all the gears on the chassis dyno, the car is complete when we get there, all the parts are on the car and used for the pulls. The dyno is hooked to Andy's computer so the readouts you can get are limited only by how many sensors you hook up on carbed cars... On EFI cars, the connections are much easier and the information the computer gathers is kind of like unlimited possibilities!!! Andy is also the guy who does all the computer tweaking on the car. As for the price, cheap!!! Last time was $275.00 for 3 pulls and his time tweaking the computer after each pass. Couldn't learn that much information about the car in a dozen passes at the track, when the car gets to the track it's tuned and competitive and don't have to waste time going round after round trying to get equal results...

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Originally Posted by rspears

Chevythunder,
Glad that you're hanging in and considering your options. I hope you get where you want to be, and I look forward to hearing about your build as you go. I really think you ought to give the Chevrolet Performance Parts "crate" engines some consideration, and take time to call the dealer and get the net price vs list, as they discount pretty deep!



Jerry, not sure where you're getting your info on engines from Chevrolet Performance, but if you go direct to Chevy (link - Crate Engines: Powerful and Classic Chevy Race Engines | Chevrolet ) the engine listed there, from the base 290hp 350 to the LSX454R are all "GM Certified Parts" built in the GM Engine works, and carrying the full GM warranty (Call 800-450-4150 to chat with GM Performance Parts if you want to confirm my understanding.) I consider them a great alternative for someone who may not need a custom build. I'm pretty sure that the same goes for Ford engines from Ford Racing Parts Direct, but I have not talked to them today. They are Ford Certified Parts, I know that they are available from your local Ford Dealer, and I am pretty confident that Ford will say that they are built by Ford shops and carry Ford warranty. Buying a takeout engine from salvage is of course a great alternative, too!



Pat,
You're taking one thing out of what I said, twisting my words and then calling me a dumb ass? If you look back, what I said (in part) was
I offered what are important things to me based on my experience, and mostly that anyone can toss out a line of BS, but if they can back it up with some hard evidence that shows success it's more than hot air. Maybe that's successes by clients in pro ranks, time slips from the track, published results on their engines, or even a dyno run on the engine built for me. When a guy says, "This engine will put out 600HP and 700ftlbs of torque", but offers nothing to verify it how does one really know? I've said nothing about you, your shop, or your capabilities as a builder here and there's no reason for me to. I've simply stated what I consider things that a prudent customer looking for a complete, assembled engine might want to consider, and it's my opinion and nothing more. If that makes me a dumb ass then I guess I'll just have to accept that and move on. I'll not add anything further to this thread.

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no i did not call you a dumb ass ? maybe hard for you to take but like said i made HP number on a real dyno some engine are dyno and not. i said not all guys have the coin but done both with real dyno and sems . my shop face book has some if anyone gives a rats ass . but i am all out of time on this . i am about done ... last engine 540bbc low buck build 427 tall deck i said it should make 650hp as i was builing it low cr engine made 700 hp . 632 cid winner of hill climb took all class.s 1 st place . is on dune TV.. i said engine would clear 1000 when getting built it easy made 1200 hp one time one dyno . so many guys take the word of a good builder and most will back there output of there engines. i have some customer that dyno there engines on classis dynos. i wish more guys would with there parts headers muffler water pump are used . i said in my post and said .. tuned in. i was thinking most knew what i meant a chassis dyno

WOW! Are we really gonna start this cr-p again!

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

WOW! Are we really gonna start this cr-p again!

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sigh.

What he said.

This happens all the time,with this forum and others!! The problem is that some on here are professionals and make a living building engines and cars! I dont know Pat or Jerry but I,m sure that they build quality engines,I myself am a amateur and hobbyist. The engine that I would need would fall in the crate engine category where street miles at low RPM with good torque numbers.If you think about it how many seconds are you above 3000 RPMS on the street? Race engines you go with a Pro but the street is different.Now I,ll clime back under my rock till I have another thought!! Pete

I'm staying out of this one. :LOL:

Okay.. Deceased Equine... stop swinging!

Another reminder of the sign that hung in my Dad's shop, "Professionals built the Titanic, Amateurs built the Ark"........

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Another reminder of the sign that hung in my Dad's shop, "Professionals built the Titanic, Amateurs built the Ark"........

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...and one that I inherited from my father-in-law, made in ceramics by his wife, especially for him - "A Closed Mouth Gathers No Foot...."

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Okay.. Deceased Equine... stop swinging!

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But I know if I beat on her some she'll get up and I can ride into the sunset............

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

But I know if I beat on her some she'll get up and I can ride into the sunset............

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" Happy trails to you, until we meet again..........":D

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Okay.. Deceased Equine... stop swinging!

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI Pete

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

But I know if I beat on her some she'll get up and I can ride into the sunset............

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Always an optimist.....

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Originally Posted by chevythunder

Thanks guys looks like the 327 going to be used in a different project down the road I'm going to look into all these ideas there is a few shops here I can look into but yes it's a family cruiser on the weekend warrior side lol, I want it to be something that makes people go really a four but how or even maybe why :confused: :LOL: but it's to the body for now, the rear door was for all intense and purposes attacked by a fork lift sad and the fender on the drivers side had a conversation with a piece of farm machinery..the fenders looks to be shorter then the ones on the two doors..I can find all kinds of panels for the two doors but the suppliers say it's a real light gauge of steel,I get some real strange looks from people when I walk in asking about them..good thing dumb looks are free right:) and many thanks guys this just opened up more options for me to look into

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And now, back to our originally scheduled programming....;):LOL::LOL::LOL:

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Originally Posted by 34_40

Always an optimist.....

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Naaaa, I just hate to walk.....

Sorry I haven't said much all between long hauling and the most wonderful misses in the world.. We moved and now instead of a carport I got me a decent little man cave for the Impala...so I finally decided to just go with the crate engine idea instead of balancing or stroking the 327 to a 383 so since the toolboxes are all placed and organized the 327 was pulled and put on a stand for another project I am looking into. I am in the process of starting the bodywork and interior, I figure get this out of the way now cause its the most time consuming?? lol found a donor car for parts that's also 4 dr talk about luck..i will keep you posted on progress and hopefully get more techy to post pics of the build..post soon I hope