Printable View
Friend of mine still has an independant shop, sez he spends a couple grand every year just to update the tools, equipment, and software he needs to work on the newer stuff..... Dealership here in town has about 4 good mechanics, then a bunch of others that couldn't make a living turning wrenches if they didn't have a service manager and service writers feeding them jobs.......:LOL: :LOL:
i hate it when someone gets on here and talk about something he knows nothing about. i've fixed more dealer come backs, than they have fixed of mine. there are good mechanics in the dealerships, and independent shops. i've worked at both. 80% of the independent shop owners are the better mechanics. that guy probably works for Mr. Good Wrench lub. and oil change. most of the good mechanics that work for a dealer for any time, gets an attitude and ain't good for nothing. i bet that guy is a trouble maker at work, like he is here. :HMMM: :whacked: **)
somebody making a "cross the board" statement like that don't make no sense. :HMMM:Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
And I'll second that. I believe what we have is what I call "black box technicians". They just keep changing stuff hoping they'll find something that fixes the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
Meanwhile, my plugs, wires and distributor have already been changed. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
when money is not a factor, the dealer is as good a place as any to get the work done, but its not the only place. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
Mike,
I was just making an obtuse comment on the twists and turns this thread has taken.
Oh, that must be why we are always getting cars in from the independents with problems they cant figure out. We also get cars in from aamco, and the independent tranny shops, because they cant figure out certain trans problems. And to say that you'd work side of me (whatever that means) you should find out who youre talking to before you say that. Yes there are a lot of techs at delaers that dont know what theyre doing, ill grant you that, but every dealer has guys that are extremely talented. The reason you had to fire guys who once worked for dealers is because they sucked in the first place thats why they were looking for a job. the good ones stay at the dealer. Sure I think there are a few great techs at independent shops, but if you dont own the place, youre not making any money working there. Independent shops dont offer the pay rate , the benefits, or the training that dealers do. In addition to being ASE master certified, I am also diesel certified, as well as automatic transmission certified, and i also hold a ford senior master certification with over 800 hours of ford training.Quote:
Originally Posted by lt1s10
And I also work on all kinds of other cars on the side. How many automatic transmission problems do the independent shops work on? none, they send it to a tranny shop. At the dealer you have to be able to diagnose anything and everything from bumper to bumper. theres no passing the buck to a specialty shop. So, I do know what im talking about, and from what ive seen after working at the dealer for over 20 years, watching every day things change and get updated like PCM calibrations (which independents have no access to, or the ability to flash EEPROMs), internal service messages that come out every day, (which independents have no access to), there is no way an independent shop could possibly know, or have access to this type of information that changes every day, for every single make of car on the road. Sure, they can get mitchell, and crap like that, but thats only tsbs. by the time a tsb comes out, weve already seen the problem and figured out the cause. i have to say that if your newer ford has a problem with anything thats electronically controlled, the dealer is the best place to get it fixed. If you need tires or an oil change, then the independent shop is an option. And as for being "parts changers" thats a load of crap too. At least at my dealer, if you change more than one part to fix a given problem, then that throws up a flag that you dont know what youre doing. We have to accurately diagnose problems, and fix or replace the faulty part, and report our findings to ford via the warranty guidelines. Ford will bounce claims and break balls if they see you "throwing parts" at a car. Its just not allowed, or tollerated, at least at my dealer. I remember when i worked at the independent shop many years ago working for peanuts, the "top" guys there would routinely get parts from the local parts house to "try" and the parts house would take the stuff back if it didnt work. happened all the time, and thats back in the late 70's early 80's when cars were as complex as a bicycle. youll never convince me that someone who is a "jack of all makes" is anywhere near as proficient at fixing a newer ford than a fully trained ase certified ford tech, or the same goes for a fully trained chevy guy, caddy guy, whatever.
a, c and/or d.
While I certainly can't join in the fray because you guys outweigh me in repair knowledge, I can say one thing about the dealerships vs independants. I had a Lincoln Towncar for my Ex-WIfe that had a driveability problem. Would run great most of the time, but every once in awhile it would screw up and start running like it was firing on 4 cylinders. I took it to every major Lincoln/ Mercury dealer in the area, and even drove 70 miles to another dealership. It would actually run worse when I left there. Two Service Managers actually came out and apologized to me because they could not find the problem.
In desperation, a guy I knew at an auto parts store told me to call this one little shop because the guy who owned it "was pretty good with Fords." I took it to him, and he said to leave the car with him for a couple of days, and he would drive it around. He called me a day later, said I owed him $ 125.00, an the car was fixed. He said he found one little sensor that everybody had been missing, and it was erratic. The car ran like a clock until the day we sold it.
Point of story, sometimes independant shops are a little more diverse and street wise than the guys who work only on one brand, I think. They have to survive by old time get in there and get it fixed methods, whereas the dealership guys may be great with all the book learning and computer stuff, but not as good at rolling up your sleeves and digging into something.
JMHO,
Don
its not worth arguing about, my first business. was automatic trans, got so bored with it I stopped doing them. working at a dealership is the next most boring thing I can think of.
Yes I used to rebuild VV carbs all the time. Loved em. I was thinking about what you said last night and i realized something... Independents work on cars that are 6 years old or older. Dealers work on cars that are from right off the assembly line to 6 years old, in most cases, when they go out of warranty they go to the independents. So who do you think figures out problems with a brand new car made this month with brand new technology in it? we do. Only after we figure out the problems, a couple of years later, it becomes a "tsb" and then the news of it filters down to the independents. They have advance notice about a lot of problems, where when youre working on something in december that was made in september, youre basically on your own and have to figure out problems that noone has ever seen.
I know minds are not going to be changed based on my comments, but I think I'll throw my 2 cents in (or a little more fuel on the fire :D ).
Having done all three (dealers, independents and run my own shop) bottom line..... IT THE STANDARDS THE SHOPS AND THE INDIVIDUAL MECHANICS HOLD THEMSELVES TO.
I have seen both hacks and superb techs at both dealerships and independent shops. The real difference between a quality shop and a poor one no matter what sign is hanging in front is the attitude of the boss or management to demand that the cars be fixed properly and efficiently.
As far as the dealers working out the new car bugs prior to the independent shops getting the vehicles on a regular basis after they reach a certain age you are right. From working in a dealership many years ago my personal experience has been that when a new model has been released that in a lot of cases many of the required repairs are common to all of them (i.e. this symptom, this part to replace or repair because the factory happened to get a bad batch of those parts).
I personally think working for and independent shop is a bit more challenging in large part because and have to diagnose the parts and problems that wear out long after the cars are out of warranty.
In my current job one of my responsibilities is monitoring the maintenance of 2 fleets of vehicles, 1 fleet is on average 25 years old....ridden hard and put away wet and repaired at our in house shop.
The other fleet ranges from new to 7 years old and contains a mix of different makes and models of vehicles. In the case of the newer fleet we are locked in to local dealer repairs until the vehicle is out of warranty (we do not have the option of taking the vehicle to an out of town dealer in case the local dealer is having problems getting a problem fixed). After the vehicle is out of warranty we do have the option of taking it back to the dealer or an independent shop. Where it goes depends on the quality of the service we have gotten from a particular dealership. Some dealerships have given us outstanding service and we go back, others frankly seem to have a problem finding their a$$ with both hands. But we have had the same problem with independent shops. Bottom line it's not about the cost, when we have a choice the vehicles go to where they get fixed properly and my statement above stands.......
IT THE STANDARDS THE SHOPS AND THE INDIVIDUAL MECHANICS HOLD THEMSELVES TO
On both sides of this argument both the dealers and the independents have been painted with a pretty broad brush. From my experience there good and bad shops on both sides of the fence and to say either are all good or all bad simply is not correct and each has their own challenges.
In the case of the pro-dealer opinions I submit that you do not see the cars from the good independents simply because they were repaired properly (but you do remember the ones that came in from the hacks).
In the case of the independents you remember see the cars from the dealers couldn't fix but you were able to.
In either case you as an individual mechanic (or tech if you prefer) would have still been able to figure out the problem simply because you were better (or luckier) than the guy who couldn't, not because you were working in a dealership or independent garage.
I'm with MikeP... It's not the shop, it's the man with the wrenches and the quality control of the management....
So who do you think figures out problems with a brand new car made this month with brand new technology in it?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
i think FMC tell you what to do.