93 is a "P" motor. **)Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
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93 is a "P" motor. **)Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
more time on the wires than the plugs? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by HWORRELL
he replaced the dist. also, so that should have made the wires easier. :HMMM:
Me thinks thou b!tches too much...:CRY: :3dSMILE:Quote:
Originally Posted by madgrinder
Some people actually don't have the time. No crime there, it's just a partial reason that service industries exist. The other reason is that people don't have the knowledge. Neither is an excuse - just a fact. Anyone in a business that requires customers and believes that CUSTOMERS SUCK is in the wrong business. There are a few jobs for folks with that attitude: hangman, hermit, suicide bomber . . . gee, that's all I can think of at the moment
hangman, hermit, suicide bomber , thats good stuff henry. :HMMM:
You forgot about the plethora of government agencies; e.g. highway dept, DMV, various utilities, and so on...............:eek: ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
Sadly Jack, this kind of attitude pervades many industries. My bride and I retell a personal story when we do employee training. Being a chocaholic I will often be tempted and frequently succumb to the demon delight. One time in a groc store we passed the bakery display case. Sitting in the middle of the display were some particularly delicious looking brownies. Oh what the heck, why not? The two gals working the bakery dept were clearly visible trough a window to the back room where the mixing and baking took place. We patiently waited even as they both looked our way but continued working on whatever it was they were doing, not bothering to acknowledge our presence. That was my signal, being somewhat obstinant, that no matter how long or whatever it took, one of them was going to wait on me. After about a minute (which usually seems much longer when waiting) one of them was heard to say; "How do they expect us to get anything done if we have to waste time on customers?" :HMMM:
Completely clueless to the relationship between customers and the paycheck.
In my opinion, if you go to a dealer for anything other than warranty work, you are gonna get screwed. They have a new group of customers coming all the time, they don't worry about keeping us. Find a good independent shop and build a rapor.
i'll second that!!!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by slowpoke
Bob,
It's too bad, isn't it? Recently, I had a clerk at Blockbuster continue to chat on her cell phone while whe was checking me out. Next time, I'm going to tell her that I'll wait until she's through - and just stand there. Someone standing there, taking your money for something they provide, should have enough common sense to give you their attention. The sad part is that it's the manager's job to avoid these problems, and they're not doing their job either.
On the other side, I have a really good relationship with our local Ford dealer. (yep, I own a Chebby and a Blue Oval) We had a recall just two weeks after we got our Explorer that requred most of a day at the dealership. My wife was the only one who could take the car, but she had a recent hip operation, and couldn't sit that long. The salesman who sold us the car called and told us he would pick up the Explorer and take care of the service. He didn't show on the day he promised. A day later, we called back. He offered a lame excuse, and promised to take care of it the next day. Guess what? No show again. Now, he didn't owe us anything, but since he offered, he needed to follow through.
I called the service manager, got sincere apologies, and he promised to pick up the car that afternoon. The car was picked up, serviced and returned promptly.
The next day, my wife and I were watching television, and she said: "That guy in the commercial is the one who picked up the car." It turns out that the "guy" was Tom Barton, the son of the owner of Beach Ford, and the current president of the company.
Afterstory: A couple of weeks later, I received a personal car from Tom Barton asking me if everything was taken care of to our satisfaction. I told him that he went the extra mile, and I appreciated it. He said: "by the way, it may be of interest to you that <that salesman> doesn't work here any more."
There's a guy who values customer service.
Final story . . . Anyone who's lived near the eastern shore of Virginia knows how dusty this are is. We were having a lot of dust, and called a local duct cleaner to clean out our heating ducts. The over-the-phone estimate was over $300. (We have a lot of ductwork.) When he looked the system over, he told us that our ducts didn't need cleaning, we just needed better filters. He sold us a couple of cleanable, electrostatic filters for about $60.00. If he had been fly-by-night, he could have hit us for the filters and the duct cleaning, but he gave us the straight scoop. Two guys came to the house, spent the better part of an hour, and went back with $60.00, which most likely put him in the red for that call. However, he gained a customer down the road, plus recommendations to my neighbors. And, when I really need his service again, I know what to look for - AND who to call.
Customer service keeps customers.
that's the reason I'll drive the 150 Miles it is, to go to the paint store I get great service at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
ok guys I am gonna get my butt handed to me for this one.... I am a technician in a small shop in a small town and hear horror stories all the time. the problem with It1s10's post is that there is no "add-on" section in the Labor Guides for wires when you do the dist. Dealers always charge more per hour and add full time for every little thing. Personally, I think that the books are wrong on about 75% of their hourly times. The way that they come up with a time is they have 1 tech. do the same job 3-5 times and average HIS/HER total time for the job. that includes driving it in and getting parts etc. It is not the best way to do something. At our shop we use the book for estimates, and bill by time taken (if less), or max of 10% over estimate (laws protecting customers in action). I am not agreeing with them for doing what they did. I am trying to calm down people who trash talk ALL shops for screwing customers. I always hate to hear people come in and trash talk other shops, but it happens. If you feel the need to talk to me more about this drop a line at scout7411@msn.com
I have a 95 Roadmaster with the LT-1. I just put a trans in it and we had to take it 500 miles away to Nashville. Well anyway it started missing down there and I knew it needed a cap and rotor, wires and plugs. The shop hit me for 1,200 bucks. They even installed the 2 brand new hoses that I had in the trunk. Wish I would have brought along the brand new water pump that I have sitting in the garage. Did I get ripped off? That's a hard one to answer. Sure I could have done it cheaper myself at home, but that guy tied up one of his techs for the whole day. A Saturday no less. I just thank the Good Lord that he could get it fixed in such short notice. He scheduled me in on Friday, ten minutes before closing.
.Quote:
Originally Posted by abzilla
i owned a big shop for 20 yrs. and i know how to read a book. its obvious you have never put a dist. or wires on a 1993 LT1. i used the book 100%, if the mechanic could beat it that was a + for him, if he couldn't then that was a - for him. there are add on, on most every book job. when you get to the dist. on a lt1, it makes it a lot easer to put the wires on, so why would you charge full price? :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowpoke
Yea, only problem is, independent shops have no clue what theyre doing. thats why we constantly get cars in from the indy's at the dealer to fix stuff they cant figure out...
you're crazy as hell. I'll work side of you any where any time on anything you want to work on. Every mechanic I ever worked, worked in a dealer ship one time or another and I fired a lot of them for incompetency. working on one kind of car isn't what I find very challenging. when I left Acme olds and caddy dealer to open my first shop they sent me most all their used car business. because their mechanics didn't know or wouldn't work on nothing, but caddy, olds. when I was there I made a good living working on everything but caddy's. in other words, you don't know what you are talking about. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Albrainya
I'm glad to see that you are feeling better, Mike. :3dSMILE:Quote:
Originally Posted by lt1s10
Mike's right I knew a guy that worked at a Chrysler dealer as a mech. He couldn't open the hood on a chevy or ford, and if you opened it for him he had not a clue as to what was going on. An independent shop will most times be better for general and major repairs. Other than warenty work. When I bought my new truck I got a coupond for free lub & oil change. I brought it in for that service. After waiting an hour I asked where is my truck..:eek: Seems it had been sitting out side the service area with the engine running and the keys locked inside.:eek: :eek: They need my spare key to get in??? I asked why they didn't just have there parts guy make a new one I was told they didn't think of that. Like it was mentioned earlier, dealers (or people who are employed by them) don't seem to care as they know someone else will call.
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Sounds like there are a lot of mechanics in the dealerships now that dont think for themselves to get "around the problem" . They are so used to being told what to do. I used to call using your own iniative "thinking on your feet". So sadly as I have allready said that seems to be lacking. :(
Looks like the Mike we are used to is gradualy coming back :rolleyes:
Friend of mine still has an independant shop, sez he spends a couple grand every year just to update the tools, equipment, and software he needs to work on the newer stuff..... Dealership here in town has about 4 good mechanics, then a bunch of others that couldn't make a living turning wrenches if they didn't have a service manager and service writers feeding them jobs.......:LOL: :LOL:
i hate it when someone gets on here and talk about something he knows nothing about. i've fixed more dealer come backs, than they have fixed of mine. there are good mechanics in the dealerships, and independent shops. i've worked at both. 80% of the independent shop owners are the better mechanics. that guy probably works for Mr. Good Wrench lub. and oil change. most of the good mechanics that work for a dealer for any time, gets an attitude and ain't good for nothing. i bet that guy is a trouble maker at work, like he is here. :HMMM: :whacked: **)
somebody making a "cross the board" statement like that don't make no sense. :HMMM:Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
And I'll second that. I believe what we have is what I call "black box technicians". They just keep changing stuff hoping they'll find something that fixes the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
Meanwhile, my plugs, wires and distributor have already been changed. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
when money is not a factor, the dealer is as good a place as any to get the work done, but its not the only place. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Rifle
Mike,
I was just making an obtuse comment on the twists and turns this thread has taken.
Oh, that must be why we are always getting cars in from the independents with problems they cant figure out. We also get cars in from aamco, and the independent tranny shops, because they cant figure out certain trans problems. And to say that you'd work side of me (whatever that means) you should find out who youre talking to before you say that. Yes there are a lot of techs at delaers that dont know what theyre doing, ill grant you that, but every dealer has guys that are extremely talented. The reason you had to fire guys who once worked for dealers is because they sucked in the first place thats why they were looking for a job. the good ones stay at the dealer. Sure I think there are a few great techs at independent shops, but if you dont own the place, youre not making any money working there. Independent shops dont offer the pay rate , the benefits, or the training that dealers do. In addition to being ASE master certified, I am also diesel certified, as well as automatic transmission certified, and i also hold a ford senior master certification with over 800 hours of ford training.Quote:
Originally Posted by lt1s10
And I also work on all kinds of other cars on the side. How many automatic transmission problems do the independent shops work on? none, they send it to a tranny shop. At the dealer you have to be able to diagnose anything and everything from bumper to bumper. theres no passing the buck to a specialty shop. So, I do know what im talking about, and from what ive seen after working at the dealer for over 20 years, watching every day things change and get updated like PCM calibrations (which independents have no access to, or the ability to flash EEPROMs), internal service messages that come out every day, (which independents have no access to), there is no way an independent shop could possibly know, or have access to this type of information that changes every day, for every single make of car on the road. Sure, they can get mitchell, and crap like that, but thats only tsbs. by the time a tsb comes out, weve already seen the problem and figured out the cause. i have to say that if your newer ford has a problem with anything thats electronically controlled, the dealer is the best place to get it fixed. If you need tires or an oil change, then the independent shop is an option. And as for being "parts changers" thats a load of crap too. At least at my dealer, if you change more than one part to fix a given problem, then that throws up a flag that you dont know what youre doing. We have to accurately diagnose problems, and fix or replace the faulty part, and report our findings to ford via the warranty guidelines. Ford will bounce claims and break balls if they see you "throwing parts" at a car. Its just not allowed, or tollerated, at least at my dealer. I remember when i worked at the independent shop many years ago working for peanuts, the "top" guys there would routinely get parts from the local parts house to "try" and the parts house would take the stuff back if it didnt work. happened all the time, and thats back in the late 70's early 80's when cars were as complex as a bicycle. youll never convince me that someone who is a "jack of all makes" is anywhere near as proficient at fixing a newer ford than a fully trained ase certified ford tech, or the same goes for a fully trained chevy guy, caddy guy, whatever.
a, c and/or d.
While I certainly can't join in the fray because you guys outweigh me in repair knowledge, I can say one thing about the dealerships vs independants. I had a Lincoln Towncar for my Ex-WIfe that had a driveability problem. Would run great most of the time, but every once in awhile it would screw up and start running like it was firing on 4 cylinders. I took it to every major Lincoln/ Mercury dealer in the area, and even drove 70 miles to another dealership. It would actually run worse when I left there. Two Service Managers actually came out and apologized to me because they could not find the problem.
In desperation, a guy I knew at an auto parts store told me to call this one little shop because the guy who owned it "was pretty good with Fords." I took it to him, and he said to leave the car with him for a couple of days, and he would drive it around. He called me a day later, said I owed him $ 125.00, an the car was fixed. He said he found one little sensor that everybody had been missing, and it was erratic. The car ran like a clock until the day we sold it.
Point of story, sometimes independant shops are a little more diverse and street wise than the guys who work only on one brand, I think. They have to survive by old time get in there and get it fixed methods, whereas the dealership guys may be great with all the book learning and computer stuff, but not as good at rolling up your sleeves and digging into something.
JMHO,
Don
its not worth arguing about, my first business. was automatic trans, got so bored with it I stopped doing them. working at a dealership is the next most boring thing I can think of.
Yes I used to rebuild VV carbs all the time. Loved em. I was thinking about what you said last night and i realized something... Independents work on cars that are 6 years old or older. Dealers work on cars that are from right off the assembly line to 6 years old, in most cases, when they go out of warranty they go to the independents. So who do you think figures out problems with a brand new car made this month with brand new technology in it? we do. Only after we figure out the problems, a couple of years later, it becomes a "tsb" and then the news of it filters down to the independents. They have advance notice about a lot of problems, where when youre working on something in december that was made in september, youre basically on your own and have to figure out problems that noone has ever seen.
I know minds are not going to be changed based on my comments, but I think I'll throw my 2 cents in (or a little more fuel on the fire :D ).
Having done all three (dealers, independents and run my own shop) bottom line..... IT THE STANDARDS THE SHOPS AND THE INDIVIDUAL MECHANICS HOLD THEMSELVES TO.
I have seen both hacks and superb techs at both dealerships and independent shops. The real difference between a quality shop and a poor one no matter what sign is hanging in front is the attitude of the boss or management to demand that the cars be fixed properly and efficiently.
As far as the dealers working out the new car bugs prior to the independent shops getting the vehicles on a regular basis after they reach a certain age you are right. From working in a dealership many years ago my personal experience has been that when a new model has been released that in a lot of cases many of the required repairs are common to all of them (i.e. this symptom, this part to replace or repair because the factory happened to get a bad batch of those parts).
I personally think working for and independent shop is a bit more challenging in large part because and have to diagnose the parts and problems that wear out long after the cars are out of warranty.
In my current job one of my responsibilities is monitoring the maintenance of 2 fleets of vehicles, 1 fleet is on average 25 years old....ridden hard and put away wet and repaired at our in house shop.
The other fleet ranges from new to 7 years old and contains a mix of different makes and models of vehicles. In the case of the newer fleet we are locked in to local dealer repairs until the vehicle is out of warranty (we do not have the option of taking the vehicle to an out of town dealer in case the local dealer is having problems getting a problem fixed). After the vehicle is out of warranty we do have the option of taking it back to the dealer or an independent shop. Where it goes depends on the quality of the service we have gotten from a particular dealership. Some dealerships have given us outstanding service and we go back, others frankly seem to have a problem finding their a$$ with both hands. But we have had the same problem with independent shops. Bottom line it's not about the cost, when we have a choice the vehicles go to where they get fixed properly and my statement above stands.......
IT THE STANDARDS THE SHOPS AND THE INDIVIDUAL MECHANICS HOLD THEMSELVES TO
On both sides of this argument both the dealers and the independents have been painted with a pretty broad brush. From my experience there good and bad shops on both sides of the fence and to say either are all good or all bad simply is not correct and each has their own challenges.
In the case of the pro-dealer opinions I submit that you do not see the cars from the good independents simply because they were repaired properly (but you do remember the ones that came in from the hacks).
In the case of the independents you remember see the cars from the dealers couldn't fix but you were able to.
In either case you as an individual mechanic (or tech if you prefer) would have still been able to figure out the problem simply because you were better (or luckier) than the guy who couldn't, not because you were working in a dealership or independent garage.
I'm with MikeP... It's not the shop, it's the man with the wrenches and the quality control of the management....
So who do you think figures out problems with a brand new car made this month with brand new technology in it?
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i think FMC tell you what to do.
Whenever I have emissions problems, I take Mylanta!!!!!:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by DennyW
To reply to Mike's Q. I beleave if the problem is bad enough the engineers will get it back. Hence RECALL.
The dealers will change those parts and may even play a part in finding the problem, but thats based on opertunity and need. Who's to say that the independent couldn't figure it out given the opertunity and backing.
As for me I don't take my cars or trucks out for repair. I used to take my truck up for oilchanges because I was busy working and figured I didn't have time. It cost me over $600.00 for a new rear end. They kept marking everything OK then it busted I had to weld a nut to the plug to get it out when it had :eek: just been serviced:eek: dry and broken. I'm back to doing my own.
Not trying to step on anyones toes here but just my thoughts
Man I got to learn to type faster.:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
I use Gas-X !!:HMMM: :eek:
I guess thats the real "O" ZONE