Thread: Everybody that is currently building a car...

Tweet

ya... I guess it is a bit different . mostly due to the Northstar engine. It's a really impressive lump, but not many people use it due mostly to the challenge of setting up a CPU that will run it properly. The plus side of the thing is that it's an all aluminum, 4 valve per cyl, DOHC configuration that puts out 300 hp bone stock and has the flattest 300 ft lb torque curve you'll likely ever see. all from 287 CI that gets 26-28 MPG. they can be made very nasty as well, and are plenty strong enough to take boost or whatever else you can throw at it. I've seen 900 HP versions that live. the CPU's that work are mostly custom setups, as the factory cpu just won't easily work outside of the Cadillac. I know a kid that sets up the GM 7730 (TPI) computer that does a great job on a stockish motor, and the specially configured Holley Commander is used by Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators with success. The 94-99 motor is the easiest to deal with electronically, but of course it only came as a sidewinder with auto trans. fortunatly any 2.8 to 3.4 ci V-6 Chev motors bellhousing will bolt up to it by modifing one bolt hole and cutting out a hole in the top for starter nose clearance. You can see in the pic that the water pump ends up on the rear left (driven by the intake cam on that head) so some plumbing needs to be fabricated as well (the tubes that are painted black).
I'll stop by here to show my progress from time to time. I'm having fun with the build, so I hope you enjoy the ride.

Cheers,
Russ

Very cool engine for the build. I think as these computer driven engines start flooding the hot rod world, more wiring systems should pop up on the aftermarket, to make it more of a do it yourselfer(at least I hope). The versatility of a computer run engine is great for the street/strip crowd!

Just got back from the Race & Performance Expo in St. Charles.
Got the lettering & show card finished on Rocky's F/C which was on display by the Engine Challenge booth. Got a lot of looks.

I have a good but kinda secretive former Oldsmobile Engineer friend. I preface this with the fact that he was an OLDSMOBILE Engineer.. I will say in a few why THAT is Important.
CK has built now two Northstar Powered 89 Pontiac Fiero GT's. The 1st with the stock power train from a 2003 Seville STS rated at 325bhp, the last with a moded power train from a Cadillac XLR-V, which is the HP version of Cadillac's XLR Roadster built at the Bowling Green KY Corvette facility, reason being it is built on the 1st C5 and Now C6 Corvette platform. Other than tires and wheels, the STS powered car looks and sounds pure stock tho not like the V6 the cars came with; However, at the track it runs smoky 60 ft mid to low 12's at from 111-114mph w/ 2.+ 60 fts on a set of BFG 275 60r 15 TA Radials.
The XLR-V car has yet to b seen track clocked, It has a G-Tech on board clocking computer atop the dash. As far as i know he has NO plans to EVER track clock the car at a track, says this is his " Street Race" car so it really doesn't matter what it runs at a track, the car also has a FIXED lap Top computer interface with which he tunes and tweeks the car.
The car uses Weld Drag Lite classic wheels 3.5 x 15 Frt Runners and 10 x 15 rear with 28 x 11.5 x 15 MT ET STREETS. The car has a knarley raspy exhaust note much like a DOHC hgh end V8 import and from eyeballing treeet test passes i guess the car to b SOLIDLY in the low 10's since i have seen him BEAT mid to low 10 sec track clocked street rods like a drum. That will give you an IDEA of how far u can go with the Northstar Engine ur using tho it will b somewhat expensive. Thus far there is little or NO after market support for the Northstar engines, such that anything u get for one in the way of HGH PERF must come from OLDSMOBILE, which is the GM Division thet you now know as Saturn. Contrary to popular belief OLDSMOBILE was NOT deleted from the GM Family, Oldsmobile division was morphed intop a division who's mantra is to compete with the imports on an EVEN footing and on THEIR terms, a task it has proven quite adept at.
Oldsmobile has always been GM's Skunk Works Research and developement Division, 1st crse control, electric windows, auto trans, AC, OHV, all aluminum Engines, Pwr steering, pwr brakes, and many many more were researched, developed and 1st appeared on OLDSMOBILES.
As for Cadillac, as long as its been a GM name plate THAT IS ALL it has been. Cadillac, along with its sister company, Lasalle was aquired by Buick, which is the parent, founding and incorporateing Division of GM to be an UPSCALE super Powered Super Luxo Buick w/o the Buick Name. in fact the sister company Lasalle was absorbed directly into Buick become a Buick MODEL, the Buick Lasalle. Effectively, Cadillac is yet a Luxo Buick with an Oldsmobile/Saturn engine, indeed a comnplte Oldsmobile power train until Hydramatic became a seperate division from its parent division OLDSMOBILE at GM. Olds/ Saturn is the engine developer and producer, while Buick is all the other production and final assembly Division, including the body AND Painting. BUT for the XLR-V, ALL Cadillacs are built in BUICK facilities and accounts for why GM's BOC(Formerly BOPC) division is and always has been GM's largest Production Group, in fact, in GM Hierarchy The CEO of BUICK is second in command only to the CEO of GM itself and ALL GM aquisitions, which includes BUICK itself, were AQUIRED by BUICK. effectively, but for GMAC, which is the only division of GM that GM actually created, is a great big company comprised of Buick Aquisitions, in fact the Chevrolet and GMC divisions werte created HERE in Flint in already existing Buick Facilities, with predominantly existing Buick employees, BY BUICK; Chevrolet to prode an entry level vehichle to compete with the model T and Model A Fords, while GMC's mantra is and always been the production of truck/bus/van chasis Vehicles, no matter what brand name may appear on one of these, its BUILT in its entirety by GMC, even the famed Chevrolet does NOT produce a van or truck chasis vehicle or SUV platform in spite of being the most prolific name plate to appear on such rides from GM.
Until the advent and release of the Old Cadillac all aluminum 4100 V8's there has NEVER even been an engine SPECIFIC to Cadillac alone, even the NorthStar is based on the Olds Aurora V8 who's heads are based on the Olds Quad 4 4 cyl. in the days of the monster sized Cadillac V8's, these were simply OLDSMOBILE blocks with reversed oiling systems and the distributor flange moved to the front of the engine, the latter because Buick is final assembly and they wanted the Cad dist in the same place as is the V Buick dist for ease of assembly. next time get a chance, look at the Older cad 425/472/500 V8's and it readily apparent that this is actually a modified Olds engine, compare a Northstar to an Olds Aurora V8 and u will see this too is an even LESS modified Olds Engine, the diffs are internal, the Aurora V8 is but 4.1 litres while the Northstar is 4.6 and a slightly Physically larger casting, the same as the Olds 260-403 SB castings are slightly physically smaller than are their 400/425/455 castings.
If u access the GM power train division u can find a wealth of tech info on modifications and improvement for Cadillac's Northstar V8. with ur modifications, keep in mind ur actually working with an OLDS engine, thus the most effective upgrades and hop ups for performance are the same as they would b with an Olds V8. Therefore, Olds After market suppliers such as Holman Moody and others can give u tips on cam profiles and such to hop up cad engines by perusin those profiles designed for the small block Olds 260-403 V8 and pattern ur profiles accordingly.
I would LOVE to see you take the Northstar to a safe limit with that stick shift trans behind it, i think not only YOU but everyone else would b QUITE surprised.
I'm a GM BOPC fanatic from the word go, in fact my 1st ride, which i bought in 1963 was an Olds, a 59 98 Convert. Tho my predominant BOPC ownership has always been Pontiac, my fav is actually Buick, however, i have bought, built and raced a number of Olds combo's as well, which as i say, is what ANY Cad engine is, Good luck, and way to go. that has got to b destined to b an even more unique build than is my Stage 2 455 Buick Powered BMW!!!!!

Dave, those headers look great on your "Maro! I'm liking the Northstar powered rod, too. Very unique idea.

Originally Posted by falconvan

Dave, those headers look great on your "Maro! I'm liking the Northstar powered rod, too. Very unique idea.

Same here on the Nortstar engines!!! Got to get me some education on this electronics stuff, still got the big V-10 Ford that I wanna put in a Hot Rod someday..... The 'maro is a "just for fun" build...just some strange stuff I've been wanting to try on a car, this one looked like a good candidate.

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Same here on the Nortstar engines!!! Got to get me some education on this electronics stuff, still got the big V-10 Ford that I wanna put in a Hot Rod someday..... The 'maro is a "just for fun" build...just some strange stuff I've been wanting to try on a car, this one looked like a good candidate.

As Radar replied to Col Potter when asked if he actually understood the mass of paperwork the Col was being asked to sign: "I try not to sir... it slows down the work".
I don't understand "this electronics stuff" eather Dave. but apparantly that isn't necessary.

Russ

Originally Posted by lotsatoys

As Radar replied to Col Potter when asked if he actually understood the mass of paperwork the Col was being asked to sign: "I try not to sir... it slows down the work".
I don't understand "this electronics stuff" eather Dave. but apparantly that isn't necessary.

Russ

Cool, Russ. I loved MASH, too. One favorite quote I use on my kids is when Hawkeye told Frank Burns, "You dont have to tell me the completely obvious, the merely obvious will do just fine." Great show!

a couple of my favs
Somtimes you have to pull down your pants and slide on the ice -- Sidney
This is Frank Burns, one of our best surgeons. A real killer. -- Henry

O.K. just a few more
Frank, you've been pushing your stethoscope too far in your ears. I think it scratched your brain. -- Henry
Well, I guess that's a bear we all gotta cross. -- Radar
Carbon paper in the safe -- what brilliant foresight! In only 2000 years it will turn into diamonds! -- Charles

There is a veritable wealth of information AND upgrade specifics both internally and in electronics fro the NorthStar cadillac power train system, and it IS a Power Train system since transmissions are specifically designed and managed to get the MOST efficiency out of the engine as well as the best mpg. I have a 2001 Seville STS that i bought new after 1st leasing a 99 SLS for 2 years, and i have had excellent service from both. The STS now has well over 115K and other than an alternator, and a radiator i have had ZERO trouble from the car save for regular maintenance. A tip, the come with Mobil 1 in em and tho expensive its best u ALWAYS use same, once u reach 50k, add some sort of oil BOOSTER such as STP, Restore brand engine restore, or one of the Lucas oil booster products but KEEP the Mobil 1.
Unkonown to most, so long as Cadillac has been a GM name plate after being aquired with its sister company Lassalle by GM it has been BUT a name plate, there is ACTUALLY NO CADILLAC production, and in fact upon aquisition, the sister company, Lassale became a BUICK MODEL, The Buick Lassalle. ALL aquistions including Buick itself were aquired thru BUICK, NOT GM Corporate. Buick is the parent and founding Division of GM. Chasis, coimponents and Final assembly are by Buick while the engine and until Hydramtic becsme an independant division from Olds, the trans as well was Oldsmobile.

In Point of fact, famed Chevrolet AND GMC were both created in existing Buick Facilities, with existing Buick workers. Louis Chevrolet and his brother were practically the ONLY New hires. The chevrolet brothers at the time were working for FORD while racing Buicks. They were hired by then Buick CEO Charles Kettering, who is also finding FELLOW of GM's GMI ( General Motors Institute, now renamed Kettering University in his Honor, AND im a graduate of same, Mechanical Engineering, Automotive Production Applications). Louis to found Chevrolet to produce an entry level vehicle to compete with Ford Model T's and A's while the older brother was tapped to start up GMC for the production of ALL truck/Van/Bus chasis vehicle from GM. To this day, no matter what name u see on a truck/Van/Bus chasis ride from GM its actually BUILT by GMC and GMC's versions will always have the greater option list and standard features.
Cadillac engines are ACTUALLY Oldsmobile engines and that is the production division of same so they have the self same characxteristics as any other Oldsmobile engine in terms of increaseing performance. No specifics but in general, perf upgrades which lenthen, extend and flatten the power curve work best. Manipulation of Lobe center, lowering both those AND Lobe seperation factors as well as other manipulation to compliment same of the duration numbers of ur cam are far more effective than big increases in lift or raiseing the lobe center or seperation above 110 degrees...
They LOVE long duration, high overlap profiles since they are BIG on Hot Static cyl pressure and can afford somewhat more bleed off of same than would some other engine.
In point of fact, i have a 403 Olds, street driven that has a Crower Beast Cam Profile that has 302 x 316 duration numbers, .521 x .543 lift with 110 x 108 lobe center/ sep numbers respectively, has tons of low end but still pulls strong to 6200RPM wit a KNARLEY racer car type idle quality that has surprising great drivabilty and MPG numbers. still have my AC, PWR and such present and functional within my Buick Lesabre which came with the 403 Olds engine. You may not believe it but Cadillac being an Olds Production would have responded in exactly the same manner comesurate with whatever diff in cubes, the Northstar is 4.6 Litres so u wouldn't get quite the boost i did but still it would b more than u would expect.
As for the electronics, same deal, tune ur electronics to do the same as internal parts, extend, flatten and raise the the peak power of the curve. In general THE BOP's even the Northstar 4.6 are thirsty devils, give it plenty of fuel, especially in the lower rpm band near or at the tq peak rpm, if u have an on bord tunable el;ectronic management system as ambient temps go up and or humidity goes down, back off on the fuel a bit to maintain a clean tourqey burn, as in as lean as u can get it without detonation.
Unfortunately, other than folk like me who can give ya build and tune information for the Northstar, much if not all other upgrades will have to come from Olds( what ya now know as Saturn) which are going to b relatively expensive since the after market has little if anything goin on for Olds/Cad engines like the Northstar. For instance, the XLR-V engine package which make the Northstar put out a whopping 444bhp at just 5600 RPM would cost well over 10K to buy and install and the base engine has 300 BHP to begin with, 325 bhp in the XLR Roadster.
U'll have to get some real seat time to get the best out of the Northstar in ANY configration, but especially with the stick trans; they actually don't care for a whole lot of help and is why the auto trans for em are so perfectly tuned.
My STS at the track runs consistant low 15's and an occassional hgh 14 at right around 98mph leaveing the car in OD stabbing and steering and its STONE stock loaded to the gills. In fact its a mite quicker than the ETC(Eldorado Touring Coupe) with same engine, well QUICKER but not as fast. The ETC is governed to 148mph while my STS is governed to 140... all of which it will do by the way as i have done it SEVERAL timesin my STS.
Good to see someone get into perf with a NorthStar, b sure and note all u do and the result, others can use this info and YOU WANT to engender urself to other Cad perf fans cause thas where ur info will b based, give none and ya get none, these guys are much like the Vette and Viper guys, kinda snooty anyway. Good luck and WAY TO GO!!!!!!

Mr Wizard, you have some of the most informative posts on here. You really know your B-O-P stuff; have you ever thought about putting together some tech/info books and publishing?

Northstars are good engines....but do they do have their issues, oil and coolant leaks, crazy cost of parts...

Originally Posted by moter

Northstars are good engines....but do they do have their issues, oil and coolant leaks, crazy cost of parts...

[shrug] . I've got about $800.00 in this one and it doesn't seem to leak.
The Northstar cylinder liners are rock hard. I've seen many Northstar motors with upwards of 175ooo miles that still had a full cross hatch pattern and no ridge at all. If I ever needed to replace one I'd just go buy another long block assy for a couple hundred bucks. they aren't really that hard to find. most of the motors you come across cheep will have a blown head gasket due to a pulled head bolt thread (or two). that's the real weak point of them. put in a set of inserts ($350.oo including the install kit) from Norm (E-bay seller) and you're good for the duration.

Russ

That Northstar really looks good when you get it all dressed up!!!! Got an attorney buddy of mine that believes the Northstar's are the best engine made, he's gonna freak when he sees these pictures of yours!!!!!

Out in the garage working on my stuff today. Got some welding done on my new tailgate and started fabbing up the housing for the 3rd brake light that will go on the racerback fairing... Try to get some pics tomorrow. About another week to play with my stuff, then back to the '37 Plymouth so it'll be ready for cruizin' this summer....