EFI Options

We've talked quite a bit here about some of the new self tuning throttle body EFI units, the kind that resemble a 4-barrel carburetor and bolt on to your existing manifold. If you're thinking of making the investment in one, like the Holley HP EFI, the FAST EZ EFI, or the MSD Atomic EFI you might want to cool your jets for a bit and take a look at Edelbrock's new E Street package. It's had over a year of development, and it will take the self tune function to a whole new level, giving the best of the self learning with features that allow human interface to over ride the computer when needed. Looks like a cool new deal that may be raising the bar again. http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...et_intro.shtml

Roger.What kind of money are they getting for those??. Is there a hp range for them??.

I forgot to ask if there is a camshaft limitation like for the lobe centers needing to be 112 or better for tuning??.

there are probably efi stuff for about any make/model engine out there and you probably otta take a look at oem type stuff----might be a lot cheaper to do and you can find parts for them at any dealership if your on the road away from home---------keep in mind that any of them will require O2 sensors, higher level of temp control(both coolant and intake temp), some type of trigger and throttle position sensors, MAP,MAF and rpm/speed, especially with automatic trans and lockup converters-----also a higher pressure fuel supply system--------

I personally would stay away from the carb type throttle body systems UNLESS they have sequential injectors located in the ports , not at the throttle body location..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

there are probably efi stuff for about any make/model engine out there and you probably otta take a look at oem type stuff----might be a lot cheaper to do and you can find parts for them at any dealership if your on the road away from home---------keep in mind that any of them will require O2 sensors, higher level of temp control(both coolant and intake temp), some type of trigger and throttle position sensors, MAP,MAF and rpm/speed, especially with automatic trans and lockup converters-----also a higher pressure fuel supply system--------

I personally would stay away from the carb type throttle body systems UNLESS they have sequential injectors located in the ports , not at the throttle body location..

---

Yes on the O2 sensor, Jerry, as well as the higher capacity fuel pump. The TPS, MAP, MAF and air temp are all built into the body with no extra wiring. Not sure if they provide a dedicated coolant sensor for input to their ECU or not (probably). For a high performance application I agree that multi-port injection is definitely better, but for the run of the mill street rod that sees an occasional WOT for play, but mostly is cruising around I think these throttle body systems are a great replacement for a carb. Great tuning across the power band, good economy, and easy to install.

I'm not an Edelbrock rep and only heard about this new product today when I was talking to my Edelbrock guy about how correction curves work together. I'm just pointing out that another player has entered the game with the other "quick EFI" systems, and it appears they are raising the bar for the market with some improved tuning options and tuning accuracy. Any application questions go back to their website, or call their product sales lines as advertised.

Good write up on it on the Edelbrock site, lots of good information!!! I like to see more companies coming out with EFI stuff, the competition certainly seems to raise the quality of everyone's offering!!!!

I'm always curious about these systems. Not sure what Dave is talking about for a write up. I'll go back to their web site and take a peek.

and this is a link to the setup I keep dreaming about for the '57!!!!!!!!!

WARNING!!!!! Don't look, it's really nice!!!!!

Hilborn Fuel Injectors

Ok, you were warned!!!

Edelbrock has had a system out for many years---left a lot to be desired

The Hilborn electronic----what I put on the 32 ford in my gallery for a customer---what , maybe 7 or 8 years ago?????

Traced a ref link to Edelbrock's forum where the ref link to Jeg's stated a cost of $2,184.99 is.The Jeg's link was removed from their site. :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Edelbrock has had a system out for many years---left a lot to be desired

The Hilborn electronic----what I put on the 32 ford in my gallery for a customer---what , maybe 7 or 8 years ago?????

---

Yup, I put one of the old units on a customer's car about the same time. Lots of problems!!! They have new and greatly improved electronics now, local dude put one on a SBC this summer, runs great!

Corey just stopped by to pick up his dogs--they dynoed/tuned a new Camaro ZL1 today that they had changed cam, ported the heads, blower and throttle body plus 2 in headers/exhaust---709 hp to the wheels and idles---

Wow!!!! great big number for a bit of work!!!! It will probably still get decent fuel mileage, too!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Edelbrock has had a system out for many years---left a lot to be desired

The Hilborn electronic----what I put on the 32 ford in my gallery for a customer---what , maybe 7 or 8 years ago?????

---

With EFI throwing anybody out based on what they were doing seven or eight years back is pretty hard to justify. The whole world of electronics and computer controls is evolving so fast that systems change on a regular basis. The beauty of dealing with a company like Edelbrock is that they have techs who are in the trenches twisting wrenches on real cars, not just desk jockeys pushing theory. I've had some struggles with my ProFlow XT system, but they were mainly me not understanding the system, or overlooking corrections that are now obvious to me. I've got nothing on the line with Edelbrock, or any other supplier. I'm just pointing out that they have been looking at all of the systems out there now, assessing shortcomings and strengths based on owner feedback, and have developed theirs to springboard off of that experience. If I were building another one today and needed a total induction system I would likely be looking to Edelbrock.

Dave, that Hilborn system is killer in the looks department. I talked to a guy at the Arizona Good Guys that was running the Inglese system with the tall stacks - looks similar, but not as sexy as the Hilborn. I will say that they seem to be pretty proud of those units!!

[QUOTE=rspears;475539

Dave, that Hilborn system is killer in the looks department. I talked to a guy at the Arizona Good Guys that was running the Inglese system with the tall stacks - looks similar, but not as sexy as the Hilborn. I will say that they seem to be pretty proud of those units!![/QUOTE]

Yeah, they are spendy-=---which is why I'll probably just keep dreaming about it and run either the Edelbrock or Fast intake!!!!!!!:CRY::CRY:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Yeah, they are spendy-=---which is why I'll probably just keep dreaming about it and run either the Edelbrock or Fast intake!!!!!!!:CRY::CRY:

---

Here's the Inglese - Inglese: EZ-EFI® Eight Stack Systems Uses either the FAST or Holley, I think?? Noticed Hilborn used FAST, too.

Neat system with the Webber look, but I prefer the Hilborn's, too!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Neat system with the Webber look, but I prefer the Hilborn's, too!!!

---

Yeah, me too! The Hilborn's just look RIGHT!!

Roger--I seem to have upset you a bit---sorry

The hilborn unit on the 32 --I used a fast system on it--also a computer 4l80 trans------

A couple of brief things about Edelbrock---------they aren't as you describe them anymore---they have hired a couple guys that are up to speed on tuning systems/software, but you probably won't get one of them

I have been told by more than a few auto insiders that some investment group bought Edelbrock

With EFI, there are just a small hand ful of parts/sensors that will feed whatever computer you have and what/how the system responds/controls the injectors, timing,rpm,egr,torque management, transmission shifts, warmup, open/closed loop,shift times, etc,etc,etc------

We have seen hundreds of mis applied systems, and often the car owner/builder has installed something incorrectly or in the wrong order of air/fuel events----------

there are several different tuning sources for the oem type stuff and if using aftermarket type stuff on a street rod/racer, I would STRONGLY suggest that a person go for the FAST or something similar-------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Roger--I seem to have upset you a bit---sorry
The hilborn unit on the 32 --I used a fast system on it--also a computer 4l80 trans------
A couple of brief things about Edelbrock---------they aren't as you describe them anymore---they have hired a couple guys that are up to speed on tuning systems/software, but you probably won't get one of them
I have been told by more than a few auto insiders that some investment group bought Edelbrock
With EFI, there are just a small hand ful of parts/sensors that will feed whatever computer you have and what/how the system responds/controls the injectors, timing,rpm,egr,torque management, transmission shifts, warmup, open/closed loop,shift times, etc,etc,etc------
We have seen hundreds of mis applied systems, and often the car owner/builder has installed something incorrectly or in the wrong order of air/fuel events----------
there are several different tuning sources for the oem type stuff and if using aftermarket type stuff on a street rod/racer, I would STRONGLY suggest that a person go for the FAST or something similar-------

---

Jerry,
All is well, and I appreciate your comments about the Edelbrock of today. It would be interesting to get some verification of their ownership status. I guess I got lucky because I got hooked up with one of their senior EFI guys, and he's been a very big help to me on my system. I'm pretty sure that Edelbrock uses the basic FAST unit in their ECU, with their programming and operator interface. As you say there are not that many out there. Again, I have no dog in the fight, I'm not on anyone's payroll, and I was just passing on what I had been told in conversation with the guy at Edelbrock I've been talking with for the past couple of years, and it sounded promising so I thought I'd pass it along.

When using an OEM computer one has to find someone who can strip out the OEM VIN link and their built in security, right? Then the harness has to be modified to get rid of the peripherals that are not being used, and tuning software obtained to let you tweak it for your needs, right? I'm not educated in this approach, but it sounds like maybe I need to learn....

I'm one that might be considering EFI somewhere in the future and once other engine problems have been solved. While the engine is apart this winter, might just weld in an O2 bung just in case:3dSMILE:

Saturday I picked up the FAST product brochure from the Comp Cams table at NSRA Burlington. Quite frankly, as a neophyte, it doesn't begin to give me enough information to even consider this as an option. I'll do some further looking, but that Edelbrock along with the MSD systems look pretty good to me right now. Then there is the Megasquirt which will use almost anyone's' TBI assembly or even a MPI set up. These can be purchased assembled or as a DIY as far as controls. Price wise, by the time you are done, my guess is that it will start to approach the 'brand names'.

One thing that the Edelbrock system seems to have is more required 'extraneous' wiring then the MSD in particular.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i8...9/DSC_0138.jpg

Any drools seen on the fenders of this car .......:o:o

-------------------------------------------

Jerry,
Hypothetical question - If your shop were closed, you were working on a new project at home, you did not have Corey for any help with the EFI and you had a bare engine with nothing from the donor car, but you wanted EFI how would you proceed? Let's assume you have a freshly rebuilt long block, no intake, no exhaust, no accessories. I'm just trying to define what is likely a more "normal" situation for most of the guys here, and wondering how you would move forward knowing what you know. You're going to have to get the parts, install them, get it running, and then tune it. Just curious.

well Roger, I guess that a comparable point of time would be mid ninties-----I 'd had a 92 vet with lt1 and it had run on any gas i put in in, good clean pweformance, and milage that averaged 21.6-21.7 all the time i had it---with that, as i planned rRobin's 33, I got an engine/trans from a guy that dealt with the powertrains removed from Detroits test cars----I got a 96 lt1, 4l60 trans, from him----128 wires on the computer!!!!!!got a service manual, started sorting things out------------

If I had a bare long block---I'd get an intake off a factory efi and an pcm and either a factory harness or maybe one from FAST------
If the engine package is pretty well stock, only a little tuning would be required and an system such as a Diablo chip or hand held tuner would let you put in gear ratios, tire sizes, etc and adjust timing maps per selected/desired fuel ratios

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

If I had a bare long block---I'd get an intake off a factory efi and an pcm and either a factory harness or maybe one from FAST------If the engine package is pretty well stock, only a little tuning would be required and an system such as a Diablo chip or hand held tuner would let you put in gear ratios, tire sizes, etc and adjust timing maps per selected/desired fuel ratios

---

OK, I understand that approach and can't see anything wrong with the approach, but now let's shift to a more realistic picture for most guys looking at this option. You've got a completed car with everything in it's place, all nicely done to look great and a highly detailed engine - the high buck aluminum manifold polished to perfection, all the wires tucked into their places, everything not polished is painted for that open hood display that wows the crowd at the shows and cruises. You've been running that Holley 600 carb for three years, and you're wanting to move to EFI with a minimal disruption to what you've already done. How do you get there now? Again, not picking on you, but very interested in your thoughts.

Long time lurker here, and since I've recently waded into the EFI pool for the first time I thought I'd weigh in here (if that's ok)-:whacked:

There are many good EFI systems out there (FAST, MOTEC ($$$), Big Stuff and Holley come to mind)-

I was originally going to go w/FAST, but I have a BBC (540) that I wanted an induction system that would make a statement and give me good driveability, so, I went with the Hilborn and the Holley Dominator EFI-why?

The Dominator offers the ability to control an electronically shifted automatic-I have a 4L80E in my Car (if Jake's Performance ever finishes it:CRY:), and, it has the fastest processor out there right now.

I would tend to agree that sequential is better (which most all of them can do), but for most a batch fire would work very well also. I think it really depends on how much control you want with your engine-do you want to control Spark? DIS? Trans? Nitrous? Do you want drive-by-wire? Data aquisition? Are you running a Turbo? Water injection? Would you like to be able to store more than one tune?

All of this and more are available now-I went with the DIS option (distributorless Ignition System and sequential injection, which necessitated running a Cam Synch on top of a Crank Sensor)-

When you open the Box and see everything that comes with it, it's a bit overwhelming, but as you go through it's pretty cool too-it's kind of like when this Internet thing came out-I was intimidated at first, but then my inner 5 Year old came out and it got better-:whacked:

Go ahead, wade in there with me (we can drown together:D)-just think-one day you could walk out to your Car without getting in, reach in and turn the key only to hear that sweet music, and stand there revelling in the fact that you did it yourself-if someone had told me you could do this 20 Years ago, I would tell them that they were nuts-here is a picture of my engine fresh off of the Dyno-

Attachment 56164

What did the engine do on the dyno? Those big stacks sure do look good on there!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Long time lurker here, and since I've recently waded into the EFI pool for the first time I thought I'd weigh in here (if that's ok)-:whacked: There are many good EFI systems out there (FAST, MOTEC ($$$), Big Stuff and Holley come to mind)- I was originally going to go w/FAST, but I have a BBC (540) that I wanted an induction system that would make a statement and give me good driveability, so, I went with the Hilborn and the Holley Dominator EFI....

---

Oh man, now you're going to have Severson drooling all over his keyboard :LOL::LOL::LOL: If that engine had the distributor on the other end I bet he'd be heading your way wanting to carry it back to South Dakota ;) EDIT - SEE?? He was already typing!! :LOL: Must have put Saran Wrap over the keys Dave?? :p

Seriously, I'm very glad you waded in and gave us your experience. I've never talked to anyone running the Holley EFI, so your comments are very much welcome on this and any other subject. I've found that a lot of the companies are using Fast's processor, and then putting their spin on it with peripherals. Does Holley have their own?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Severson

What did the engine do on the dyno? Those big stacks sure do look good on there!

---

Dave,

It was run on the Dyno with an Air Gap and a 1000 hp Holley on it, and it made 775.5 h.p., and 740# of Torque (my engine guy is not set up for efi)-here is that Dyno session (btw, you can hear Harold Bettes from Superflow whistle, as he was present to calibrate the Dyno)-

100 0210 - YouTube

As most will agree, a Hilborn adds up to 10% on a normally aspirated engine and tremendous throttle response, so I think it's somewhere north of 800 h.p.-

The combination is:

-new 502 Block w/arp studded Mains
-Eagle 4340 forged Crank
-Eagle "H" Beam 4340 Rods (w/L19)
-AFR 315 Heads
-Isky Roller Cam (248/252 .680 lift 110 lsa)
-Crower Enduro Rocker Arms
-Manton push rods
-Morel Roller Lifters
-ATI SuperDampner
-Mahle Pistons
-Finally ended up with a modified B&B Oil Pan
-it had some extensive work on the Oil system-the oil pressure stayed between 64-68 psi from 45-6400 rpm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rspears

Seriously, I'm very glad you waded in and gave us your experience. I've never talked to anyone running the Holley EFI, so your comments are very much welcome on this and any other subject. I've found that a lot of the companies are using Fast's processor, and then putting their spin on it with peripherals. Does Holley have their own?

---

My understanding is that Holley originally purchased the Software from another Company , although the processor is rumored to be theirs-what I like about the Holley is the self tuning feature-you simply install a program that is close for your engine, start 'er up, hit the self tune function, and you can watch the Tables change as the rpms
go up-watch this:

Holley Self Tuning Demonstration - YouTube

That is some strong dyno numbers! The self tune demo was fun to watch, sure does adjust the fuel tables a whole lot faster then changing jets, float levels, shooters, etc. etc. on a carb!!!!

Roger--and others-----this is a road with many forks---to go to the hilborn and various options is going to add thousands of $$$$$$$$$$$to your build, If the main thing you want is efi, and drivability ,putting an oem system off a late model car will be thousands of dollars cheaper--lok at Daves poll---doesn't he have the cost of the entire engine,trans and wiring /controller around $6000????

I have repeatedly posted that the 32 5 window in my gallery is a 540 dart with hilborn/Fast/4l80 trans---did anyone go look at it??? I can maybe search back and find more pics to post but posting pics on here is a pain for me as I got to downsize/copy/edit/turn------------and it'll only take 5 at a time plus the order they come up is random-----

These comments/pics from 35 are good and the items that I'd have to comment on are that once again here is a dynoed engine that was run with the dyno operators carb/induction/ and maybe exhaust system that tells nothing except maybe there are no oil leaks---it tells absolutely nothing about the efi system and the company videos of the self learning features of a system are like a political speach------

The OEM PCMs from late model Detroit stuff has much more control capability than any of the aftermarket stuff and they have short term/long term memories---the areas that a aftermarket system will be a better choice is on a full tilt race only (maybe occasionally street driven) which is set up with multiple power adders---turbo/supercharged, water/metanol added, nitrous/multistage no2/transbrake, burnout ,linelock, timing retard for boost and NO2,shock valving control, fuel system control--------and data collection including time, G loads, O2/egt temp readings,etc
The polish/paint on the parts are not a factor in the choice between carb and efi-----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I have repeatedly posted that the 32 5 window in my gallery is a 540 dart with hilborn/Fast/4l80 trans---did anyone go look at it???

---

Yes I did, and what a beautiful Car-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

These comments/pics from 35 are good and the items that I'd have to comment on are that once again here is a dynoed engine that was run with the dyno operators carb/induction/ and maybe exhaust system that tells nothing except maybe there are no oil leaks---it tells absolutely nothing about the efi system and the company videos of the self learning features of a system are like a political speach------
The polish/paint on the parts are not a factor in the choice between carb and efi-----------

---

Jerry,

It seems like I hit a nerve here, and for that I apologize-I was simply trying to add something to the conversation, answer the questions, and thought it might be pertinate-I will respectfully bow out-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Jerry,It seems like I hit a nerve here, and for that I apologize-I was simply trying to add something to the conversation, answer the questions, and thought it might be pertinate-I will respectfully bow out-

---

No reason to bow out! Just the opposite, you have certainly added a whole new perpective to the conversation. I hope you continue to add your thoughts and experiences. By sharing these your helping many of us without even knowing it.

Same with Jerry and Roger, as always, there are a bunch of us sitting in the wings, reading and learning! 35Window, I hope you'll change your mind and stick around, we're glad to have you here. :D

35---nope you haven't hit any nerve at all---its hard for me to write the 100% words for what I'm trying to say------
Your engine is beautiful and is more like the one I did, but the pics in my gallery of that one are construction phase pics and not finished c ar--------------

Dyno with carb and manifold comment was simply stating that many people will dyno a customers engine with the dyno operator s carb/manifold--what good does that do? simply checks for oil leaks and the engine customer gets screwd out of several hours of machine shop labor-----------sorry

Polish/paint---I'll let my history of my creations speak for themselves(I'm not a RRF(RatRodFan))

EFI self learn----the guy in the video cut the fuel trims 50% and then idled the engine for a few minutes,----so at this point the engine has to richen up--pretty basic----then runs at wot------------IF that system was on your engine, in a race car, and you pulled it to the line for a run or lap and went full throttle--power adders, etc, you'd have junk--it will not add enough fuel quick enough and if it did, it probably would add too much---that is even if the injector size/flow rate/fuel system had enough capacity and pressure--------

We deal with these type of set ups constantly and are very involved at the leading edge of some of this stuff---we deal with turbo charger suppliers, super charger suppliers, fuel pump/tank/controllers, ignition, not to even enter the area of cam timing, displacement on demand, varible cam timing, changed firing orders, O2 sensor /egt placing, exhaust systems rattling on suspension ,Inlet air temps, water/meth sprayers, egt, egt

Enough for now, I need another coffee-----------

But I will repeat that for a street driven vehicle (meaning transporting humans) that you can't beat the capabilities of an OEM system custom tuned by an experienced tuner for the modifications done-------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 35WINDOW

Yes I did, and what a beautiful Car-
Jerry,
It seems like I hit a nerve here, and for that I apologize-I was simply trying to add something to the conversation, answer the questions, and thought it might be pertinate-I will respectfully bow out-

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 34_40

No reason to bow out! Just the opposite, you have certainly added a whole new perpective to the conversation. I hope you continue to add your thoughts and experiences. By sharing these your helping many of us without even knowing it.

Same with Jerry and Roger, as always, there are a bunch of us sitting in the wings, reading and learning! 35Window, I hope you'll change your mind and stick around, we're glad to have you here. :D

---

Please don't be offended, and now that you've broken the ice please continue to post!! I am especially interested in how you do with your Holley setup, and would enjoy seeing more of your car. I truly hope that you won't let one post turn you away.

Jerry,
I cannot agree with your closing statement that the "paint & polish" have no place in the decision between carb & EFI. Most on here are building for dual purpose - they want it to work right and provide the convenience of the more modern EFI, but if it doesn't look right it's likely going to stay on the seller's shelf. I don't disagree that the OEM computers have a lot of R&D behind them, and that they will likely have features that the aftermarket guys have not gotten to yet, but the evolution taking place is indeed happening. Talking to a supplier, they are now working in areas like A/F changes due to heat soak in the manifold, affects on hot start & cold start, increased efficiency in cruise, faster self learn, and identifying those places where self learn simply does not work and human input is necessary. Political speech?? Maybe to an extent, but in my case it was more of a "bench racing session" with a guy who's doing it today - the "...what's happening, and what're you working on now" discussion that I find fascinating.

Not trying to pick a fight in any way, but I think that the aftermarket EFI's have a place in the market. I'm having a ball stumbling through the learning process of the advanced tuning maps, correction curves, narrow band/wide band O2 readings, and everything else. It keeps my brain engaged, and keeps me humble when I see some of the stupid things I do, and then go back to fix them. :LOL:;)

PS - On the pictures, I set my camera to the resolution "PC - 1024" so they fit just right without shrinking. Then I upload them to PhotoBucket in an album, and from there copy the "Image Name" and past it into my text - no "Manage Attachments" or fussing with order - they are in the order you paste the Image Files, and you can add text between them. Best thing is you can put up to thirty five photo images in one post!! Then you can "Reply" to your own post, and add thirty five more!! Sweet!!

Roger

Paint and polish---I am sure by now that you know where I have been on paint and polish------however, my comment was slanted toward the point that if anyone is interested in a newer system for whatever reason---the idea that your engine is already painted or has polished parts, is not/will not be a factor about the capability of the new system---

Some of the newer systems are plastic/composite so its an issue of paint whereas the older systems being metal can be paint or in the case of alum can be polished. of course then there is BILLET----------------

Now, for your engine----------IF you are looking for a throttle body based system so that you can keep the air cleaner in the middle of your engine bay----you have two choices--throtthle body injectors ORRRRRRR injectors in the ports, which will require welding bosses in the manifold runners and a fuel rail system with extra plumbing and wiring to the rail/injectors----------
IFFFFFFFFFFFF you want to go injected, you will have to upgrade several components in your fuel tank/pump/pressure regulators/control--including a key on momentary power to pump to pressurize the system and plumbing for a return to tank of excess fuel----------

Thanks for info on your pics---I don't do that because I got a 15 mb camera because thats what I want---------

IFFFFFFFFFF you want to do ported injection, it will require the manifold to be modified / or replaced----------

Starts to get sorta like politics-----$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$----------If your car is running decently now, I would suggest staying with the Holley carb---and maybe look at the msd system that controls SPARK from manifold and exhaust sensors----------

Iff you want fuel injection for a driver-look at the later years versions of your engine family for basic system componets and change the visable parts to whatever you want it to look like-----------

Another way to do efi is the marine way---look at some merckcruzer, etc systems

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Thanks for info on your pics---I don't do that because I got a 15 mb camera because thats what I want---

---

Jerry,
On the pictures, that 15mb camera still has lower resolution settings on the menu to take shots that will attach to e-mails without shrinking, or for those viewers that size the high resolution files to be like a billboard that you have to scroll back & forth, up & down to see the whole picture. You can also store tons more pictures in the lower resolution setting, and if you're not going to print bigger than 8x10 they are fine. If you're going to take a shot that you might want to crop and print in a bigger size, like maybe one face in a family reunion group and you want a 16x20 print of that one face then your 15mb resolution does it for you. Just trying to save you some steps and make life easier.

Roger,, I know and understand what your saying about setting a lower resolution on the camera--I got this camera because when out west on a trip to grand canyon, yellowstone,yoseme--all the orientals had this camera---the only time I have found a better camera that those folks use was when the Nasa guys took Hasselblads to the moon----yep, got one of them also, but it uses film--I have taken a lot of pics from high altitude and far off distances--I want to be able to count the cws and pigs in those feed lots (count the feet, divide by four)

I am also looking for lots of details on vehicles and airplanes---On the Canon EOS50D, I use a 28-135 lens --I can frame a complete car from the middle of the street and also sometimes keep a 300+mph car in the view finder down track with some details--------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Roger,, I know and understand what your saying about setting a lower resolution on the camera--I got this camera because when out west on a trip to grand canyon, yellowstone,yoseme--all the orientals had this camera---the only time I have found a better camera that those folks use was when the Nasa guys took Hasselblads to the moon----yep, got one of them also, but it uses film--I have taken a lot of pics from high altitude and far off distances--I want to be able to count the cws and pigs in those feed lots (count the feet, divide by four)

I am also looking for lots of details on vehicles and airplanes---On the Canon EOS50D, I use a 28-135 lens --I can frame a complete car from the middle of the street and also sometimes keep a 300+mph car in the view finder down track with some details--------

---

Jerry,
No one is arguing with your ability to do those things, but the question is backing off the resolution for the local car shows where counting the number of points in the rock chip on the hood is not really a need. As I said before, you're complaining about all the steps you have to go through to post pictures, I pointed out that all you need to do is back off the resolution based on need, post them to a third party host and then link the image files, up to 35 per post. You're not interested? That's fine, but why keep complaining that your files are too big to post, and that you can only get five per post. You've decided to live with 15mb files for run of the mill photo's, so you have to live with shrinking them down to use them. Pretty simple.