Dave; when I said " new ", I meant new to them, not nessesearly new to the road. I prefer the shovle to but I'v seen most custom choppers have the evo's. Indian Larry, uses shovles and pan's I belive, he also uses boat trailer fenders for the rear fender on his bike so, it would explain him doing things the old way. Indian Larry also leaves his oil filters exposed and most of his bikes are kick start and, he also makes a few suicide shift bikes.