title legality?

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Originally Posted by Hombre259

Dave, SEMA may be trying what ever they can do make these cars legal. But from Thurms post it would seem that Pete Chapouris and SEMA took a damn strange path around the barn.

RS

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I agree, but I don't think they could really have done anything else, deck was really stacked against them in Ca....... It's a dang shame, but maybe it's just time to leave the whole dang state to the bunch of phony ******** running the place??????

I was talking with my friend out there in Corona, his opinion is that the real (unpublished) unemployment numbers for California are over 20%, and now the government is doing their best to do away with how many more millions of dollars of business and jobs in the state?????

On the registration and emissions crap, they get away with that because Federal law sez that no state can have standards or requirements that are lower then federal standards....and the State of California has taken that to the extreme in doing their best to outlaw anyone who even knows how to open their hood, let alone build a Hot Rod!!!!! Of course it's not right, but nobody (ie, the majority of the residents of the state) seems to have any desire to do anything about it....

the bottom line is
in 1 hour i saw a man get a VIN plate attached to the firewall of his car
and another get his title confiscated.
i am gonna do it like the first guy....

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Originally Posted by billy zz

the bottom line is
in 1 hour i saw a man get a VIN plate attached to the firewall of his car
and another get his title confiscated.
i am gonna do it like the first guy....

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Yuppers, that along with Bill's post fairly well clarifies what a guy should be thinking when he does the title and registration deal on his pride and joy........

dave ask your friend about the fact is if you take all the public employees fed. state .co, and city. out of the equation, the rate is 48% and rising and they can't be laid off or fired....ted

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Originally Posted by ted dehaan

dave ask your friend about the fact is if you take all the public employees fed. state .co, and city. out of the equation, the rate is 48% and rising and they can't be laid off or fired....ted

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Yeah, he was telling me something about it, but I didn't have the numbers so I didn't add that....... and they wonder why the state is so broke??????:LOL::LOL::LOL:

This is how I interpret the law. Lets just say for conversation I decide to build a new '32 roadster. I buy the body for $25,000 I buy the frame, front end, rear end and wheels and tires. Now I have $55,000 in the car and it rolls.I want to take it to a body shop to hammer weld my wheel wells that I have raised. so I call my insurance company to get coverage while it's in the body shop. The insurance co. says we can't insure you until it has a license plate no. I go to the DMV to register to get my plate so I can get my insurance. The DMV says drive it in here so we can have a safety inspection, I explain it isn't running yet I'm just trying to get insurance on it. Sorry, she says it has to be running for the safety inspection.
So then I go to Ebay and buy a title, take it to AAA and register it. I put down it's value for fee's at $30,000. I walk out with my plates and head to my insurance co.
Now 3 years later this law passes. I have to go to an inspection station to have my car smoged. They look at my car and appraise it at $150,000. Now I am a felon and they can confiscate my car and crush it.
I owe the difference between $30,000 and $150,000 plus penalties.
That's the way I see this thing going down. If I am missing something here please give me your opinion.
Here is part of the red flag, Henry built a little over 10,000 '32 there are over 60,000 curently tittled.
Ken

Kind of the same way I read it, Ken.... and the "amnesty" thing to me is just a scam to get those who do own Hot Rods that when built were in compliance, but now because of a new law aren't to pay out a whole bunch of money in fines and penalties, then pay out another $6 to $10K for this "legal" engine, then the privilege to pay for getting it thru emissions testing.... Then, if you don't buy in for the amnesty scam, the state is gonna getcha later on.... It will generate a bunch of revenue for the state, and I wouldn't be surprised if, as you say, the state doesn't just confiscate and crush and car that the owner won't play all the games, buy the parts, and pay the penalties..... or for that matter, who knows what sort of future plans they have for the cars and owners who actually do pay all the $$$$$$???????????

Just with my few friends and acquaintances in California, I know of 6 Hot Rods that have already left the state and are residing elsewhere....there owners will be leaving soon.... Wonder if the geniuses' have calculated what it's going to cost the state in revenue and jobs once they "succeed" in running off all the evil, evil Hot Rodders??????

after some thought.
i think that all these "documents" i see for sale online have fueled a crack down on stolen cars and parts.
and i can understand why they want to know exactly where you got that beautiful engine etc.

i may be wrong .


P.S.
i have reciepts for everything even the steel i buy to fabricate things.
and i am taking photos of every stage of this build.
i will have proof

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

It sounds to me with the "watermark" part that the document the guy had wasn't really a title at all. Otherwise how would the cop even suspect it wasn't real. I have had some badly chewed up titles in my life and they have yet to be turned down for being dog eared. I think there was more to that story than we know.

Don

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definition of watermark

http://dictionary.bnet.com/definition/watermark.html

The state can care less about any of this their single objective is to generate money. that's the bottom line.
Ken

this has been an informative thread.
it really got me thinking.
i am glad i started it.

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

The state can care less about any of this their single objective is to generate money. that's the bottom line.
Ken

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Agreed, but eventually they are going to be so "successful" at generating this revenue that there won't be anyone left there that can afford to pay it!!!! Oh wait!!!! That's why the state started all this absurdity, to generate more money cuz the state is so dang broke!!!! I sure do hope all the do gooders and tree huggers are willing to pay in a bit extra once they run everybody else off!!!!!

Hay you know the the old saying follow the money

i left ca. in 78 best thing i ever did.
all my family and friends are either long gone or packing up now.

half of my guns and none of my cars are legal in that loony bin.

I forgot to mention, guess what your plate cost for coming years when they tell you your car is valued at $100,000, about $900 a year!!!!!!!
Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

I forgot to mention, guess what your plate cost for coming years when they tell you your car is valued at $100,000, about $900 a year!!!!!!!
Ken

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I'd say it's time to call and OUT OF STATE realtor!!!!! Just bought tags for 3 cars, 1 pickup, 2 trailers-----$215.00..... But it's not all good news around here, either.... good place (cheap land, cheap labor, cheap taxes) for manufacturing, but huge transportation costs to get materials in and finished products out.... We've lost 3 companies locally in the last couple of years because of it.....one company went back to Minnesota, two others to South Carolina....

Besides CHR where is a good source to sell my cars? I don't mean to step on any toes here. if this is inappropriate please delete it.
Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Besides CHR where is a good source to sell my cars? I don't mean to step on any toes here. if this is inappropriate please delete it.
Ken

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I don't know of anyplace that I could say is "good" to sell a car right now....... Haven't had much luck getting anything sold since mid summer.

I'd say just get the word out through whatever means, set a price, and be prepared for a buyer to come around eventually.... Your's are really first rate quality and it's going to take a lot of visibility to attract the kind of buyer that will realize what it takes to build with that kind of quality and is willing to part with the money!!!!!!

EBay always attracts a lot of interest, but I haven't seen much on there bringing any big bucks lately either......

I'd trade them all for some property somewhere, that's how peod I am.
Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Besides CHR where is a good source to sell my cars? I don't mean to step on any toes here. if this is inappropriate please delete it.
Ken

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Ebay gets you the biggest overall bang for your buck (in terms of world wide advertising).

Carsonline dot com is another.

No place good at this time of year and in this current economy if you ask me. I've got a BB Cobra up for sale at 30% off of what it should go for, no bites and the car is beautiful........


Bill S.

sold all my cars on Racingjunk.com. they do have section for street cars, and they are world wide sold my 69 camaro to a guy in Germany.

Bill,
Wow, that really stinks, at least ca. could have pulled this in a good economic time.
Ken

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Originally Posted by Ken Thurm

Uncle Bob, if you read this would you give your interpretation on the new SEMA and DMV agreement for Californian's?
Ken

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The short answer is one I think you hit on in your comment on pg 4 I think it was. The primary motivator for the state is tax revenue. They are convinced, and not altogether unfounded, that there is a lot of "lying" about valuation at registration time. Just as we're seeing on the federal level it's about power and control..............the path, be it "illegal" registration, environmental concerns, or "health care", are just a means of controlling the populace. But they need tax revenue to fund their endeavors as government doesn't produce anything of intrinsic value.

To look at it in the sense of other broader comments made here, blaming SEMA for playing the game is to misunderstand what business people are all about. Ken, I know you understand this because you've been a successful small business entrepreneur. Like others who've taken on the same/similar challenges, business owners are problem solvers. They confront issues that put obstacles in their way and figure out a way to come out ahead. The politicians see that behavior and exploit it for their own gain. Environmental controls started out modest enough, folks of good intention and citizenship bought into the basic concepts and "played along". All in the name of "it's the right thing to do". To a degree that assessment is accurate. The rub comes when the reasonable becomes the foundation for progression to the unreasonable. We're in the middle of that on medical coverage/cost/supply/demand. Any reasonable evaluation of what's being proposed shows that the REAL issues aren't being addressed. But the goal isn't to fix the healthcare system, it's to impose maximum control over the majority of the populace. It's the same for the environmental issues, and the slap down over title/registration issues are related from the funding side. But I'm getting into the weeds where most are either afraid to go, too lazy to recognize, or too overwhelmed to want to engage.

Ken, do you remember a conversation we had over lunch a couple years ago? I mentioned how many businesses had relocated to Vegas over the past decade. It's a matter of finding the tipping point. Those folks had a lower point than yours. Dave's examples show more folks are reaching theirs as well. I don't know what will happen, but it wouldn't surprise me to see this exercise really hurting our hobby. As an example, with the state of the economy what it is, glass '32s are really down in market value from where they were a couple years ago. That declining trend has been showing for over a year now. It feels like someone threw a switch a couple months ago and sales have declined even more of late. If the noose is tightening even more in Calif. where there are a lot of these kinds of cars, and the owners react by putting their cars on the market, we'll be in an even more overwhelmed supply/demand situation. Prices will crash. "Real" cars, such as a genuine, high quality '32 coupe or roadster, will probably retain better value because, like fine art, there are only so many and those that have enough money will continue to value the rare/unique/limited availability highly. Same old formula really. It works in art, rare coins, and other valuable collector items. Ironically, the same political faction that is depressing the value of the dollar, and is seeking greater control of the masses, are driving "investors" to these none dollar investments as a hedge against declining dollar value.

As for selling your, or any, incomplete project, it's a tough market slice in decent markets, tougher still in today's world. Trades seem to be better than cash right now unless you get very fortunate in finding someone who's the absolute "right" customer for what you've got. There's probably someone out there that would love to have your car, and be willing to put up with what it takes to make it work. Finding them is the challenge. To that end I agree with Bill that ebay is probably the single largest worldwide marketplace, though others may offer some opportunities as well. Bidding is pretty puny right now, but the exposure is worth a lot. The more people you can engage the better your chances of putting together a deal, especially if you're flexible on how/what you'll take as payment. We're living in challenging times, and the horizon doesn't look like it will get better given the current political climate.

It's tough to work out the full thought process in brief postings online. You've got my number. If you think that talking it out will help, call me at your convenience. I'll do whatever I can.

Here is another problem. In my red roadster I used a Donovan block, in my truck i used a block 'Lil John Buterra gave me out of his Indy car. Nether engine has smog identification certificates. Neither car will pass even if I went in now under the amnesty plan. I have come to the conclusion that Californian's can't be Hot Rodders any longer. All you have to do is bolt things together from there sheet of paper.
Ken

At one time Florida tried kinda sorta a similar deal. They were sure they were missing out on sales taxes on used cars. Lets say you buy a 2000 Chevy for $1000.00 and you put that down on the bill of sale and pay the tax on that amount. What would happen is that some pencil pusher in Tallahassee would then look at the sale and look up the book value of a 2000 Chevy and if it was more they would send you a letter demanding the extra tax.

It happened to me. I bought a Lincoln Towncar that had a blown motor for something like $ 700.00. A month or so later I get a letter telling me that my 1990 Lincoln Towncar is actually worth $ 3000.00, so I owe them tax on the difference of $ 2300.00. I wrote them a letter and told them that not ALL 1990 Lincoln Towncars are worth the same amount of money, one with a blown engine like the one I bought was worth $ 700.00 and that is what I paid. They were putting the burdon of proving you were right on the buyer....you were immediately wrong until you proved otherwise.

I never heard back from them, and I think that program was short lived, but I can see where some genius came up with it because of the money they could shake out of people who didn't stand up and call them on it. Sounds like that is what California is trying to do to you guys out there.


Don

Ken, I hope you set back and ponder your personal situation and these great sounding cars of yours, before you do something that can't be undone. There's always a way, even in California..

Now with that said if you do decide to test the waters of selling them, by far one of the very best web-sites is Racingjunk.com

http://www.racingjunk.com/

I have used this site to buy and trade cars several times. The response has always been phemonenal. Unlike E-Bay ads are free once you register which is also free.

I hope you decide to work a way to a solution other than selling. If you do decide to list on racing junk you can always change your mind, which in your case you probably will do. At least I hope thats the case.

Roland

Roland- thank you

Don- See, the real culprit out here was Boyd Cottington. He apparently would build a car let's say for $500,000 then license it in Missouri for $20,000 then transfer it back here with the $20,000 price tag and the costumer only paid taxes on the $20,000. That's how all this started.
Ken

I wondered about that "raid" thing and all that went with it. So that is what started it all. I never really knew what all that was about.

Don

i was just wanting to know if this title thing was as bare faced illegal as it looked.
the answer is yes.

Not necessarily............there are different shades of "illegal." Think about this..........the vast majority of people who may do something like that are hard working, tax paying, family people who simply like to tinker with old cars. Cars that for the most part have been cast aside and sit rotting in some back yard or field, and that are contributing nothing to our economy.

Now, along comes Mr or Mrs Hot Rodder or Restorer and they begin the process of bringing that rusting hulk back to life. To do that they buy parts........lots of parts which are usually made and sold by American companies and also that taxes are paid on, both on the wholesale and retail level. It took jobs to make those parts, and the workers earned money and paid taxes and bought stuff that they paid taxes on.

Finally, the car is ready to drive and the owner pays his sales tax, license fees, insurance fees,and starts driving it. Now he buys gas that has road taxes on it, and buys more parts, also with more taxes on them. So what has happened is that something that was just sitting idle has created a whole new level of money being spent that goes to stimulate our economy.

I see it as Patriotism! :D:D (so where is the harm done??:confused:)


Don

stolen ,parted out cars jack up everyones insurance rates.

using hot parts is bad juju.

i am not flaming ANYBODY.

billy, there's no question that theft is unacceptable and ultimately bad for everyone. But I'm with Don for the most part philosophically on this. The vast majority of rodders aren't stealing stuff and hiding it with phony paperwork. They're just trying to enjoy their hobby with the least amount of hassle. At worst they're performing a tax protest. There was once a nation formed by tax protesters who ousted an oppressive government, that nation went on to do a lot of good things for the world, but then....................well, we'll see......

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

At one time Florida tried kinda sorta a similar deal. They were sure they were missing out on sales taxes on used cars. Lets say you buy a 2000 Chevy for $1000.00 and you put that down on the bill of sale and pay the tax on that amount. What would happen is that some pencil pusher in Tallahassee would then look at the sale and look up the book value of a 2000 Chevy and if it was more they would send you a letter demanding the extra tax.
Don

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That's basically how it is here in Mass., except they check bluebook right at the time of registration! Don't like it? Then don't even think about registering! A couple of exemptions like transfer of ownership to a family member and that kind of thing. Once I had a car given to me by an uncle for a dollar. It drove the registry crazy to charge me the sales tax of five cents! The car was a gift and they couldn't do anything about it!
I wouldn't try that today tho'! They have absolutely NO humor in that office!

All this made me think of the Chilli Pepper's song, "CALIFORNICATION". I hope this doesn't catch fire in the rest of the country ....................

Good luck and best wishes to all the west coast rodders out there.

Kitz

Gee, Bob P and I ACTUALLY agree on something! That made my day. :D Now if I can get him to start posting pictures of GOOD LOOKING women. :LOL:

Here is another problem I see with the States trying to appraise our cars: We buy a $ 500 junker, put lots of parts on it that we pay sales tax on (for the most part) then we supply our talents and labor to it for X number of years and this car now becomes a work of art that is worth $ 30,000.00 (to pick a number) Now they want us to pay tax AGAIN on that inflated figure.:eek::mad:

I think that was why a whole bunch of tea got dumped into Boston Harbor some years back and fueled a little "misunderstanding" between us and some folks overseas. :3dSMILE:

Don

"We buy a $ 500 junker, put lots of parts on it that we pay sales tax on (for the most part) then we supply our talents and labor to it for X number of years and this car now becomes a work of art that is worth $ 30,000.00 (to pick a number) Now they want us to pay tax AGAIN on that inflated figure.:eek::mad:"

Same deal here in Ontario. Any vehicle more than 25 years old must have an appraisal at the time of registration (or change) and sales tax is determined on that amount. The only way to avoid this is to have the appraisal done at the time you pick up the $500 junker and get the vehicle registered as "non-operating." Then tax is paid on the $500 (or appraised value) at that time and when you finally put the car on the road it is only necessary to have it safetied. Unfortunately many builders forget or neglect this first step and receive a big shock when they finish the car and are taxed on the $30,000 value. Not sure if that procedure is available in other jurisdictions.

This situation isn't going to stop here, if they are successfully at this and it generates the revenue they think it will, it will be coming to a town near you. I'm going to do as much as I can to fight this, and encourage everyone I know to do as much as possible. I'm not naive enough to think this is going to go away. They have been working on this for years and now have a base to work from.
Ken

The real problem, in California and everywhere else, is the idiots we send to the state and federal legislature!!!! If they're in office more then 1 term they seem to forget that they are there for the benefit of the MAJORITY of voters who put them in office and there only loyalty is to the highest bidder!!!!! The same bunch of "good old boys" in charge year after year doesn't even resemble a government of the people, for the people, and by the people as the constitution intended.... It only leads to a government that is for sale to the highest bidder.....

Around here we keep a couple of spies in the state legislature who watch for what the heck is coming up for vote... Doesn't really take a whole lot of phone calls and meetings to get down to the real answer of who is doing what, and which lobbiests are buying the votes.... A good editorial or any type of article that gets in front of the voters will sometimes resolve the problem.... Of course, the whole population of our state is less then that of Orange County---don't know if it works on a larger scale or not?????? But I do know, regardless of who the state legislator is, once he's told that this is going in to print and the voters will read about it, they tend to "adjust" their position..... After all, the last thing a politician wants to see in print is the truth!!!!!!

I have titles for cars that I've own as far back as 25 years, I will have to get them in order. Pay the penalty so I can be legal.

Richard

Ken, I'm purposely not quoting your last post because if you choose to edit the original it won't change the quote. Since you've got your real name on the posting I'd recommend you remove/change your last post.