That's about sums it up Dave. :)
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That's about sums it up Dave. :)
Your first premise is based on non-factual information. It is based on popular propaganda however. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.c...a-b35d0842fed8 Factually there is little disagreement that global temps HAD been rising for a goodly number of years, the less established point, and the less agreed to notion is that it is caused by human activity. The predictive models used by those who do believe global warming is human caused have failed repeatedly in back testing (in other words plugging in past historic data and seeing if the model accurately predicts where we have ACTUALLY ended up climate wise today). The model doesn't take into account the effects of water vapor on climate, and as pointed out, water vapor (also a greenhouse gas) is 120 times greater in volume than CO2. Faulty premises result in faulty conclusions. Someone educated in science should recognize that no? As for scientific "consensus" supporting the accuracy of the belief, centuries back the scientific "consensus" was that the world was flat. Today we know how silly that notion was, but it was based at the time on the best knowledge available to the scientists of the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by stovens
The second statement is a clear definition of what our real problem is. You've basically stated that no one on this site is as smart as you on this subject. That's the dominant narrative in our society today. Therefore, any debate provided by those lesser beings is wrong and therefore dismissed out of hand (thus the Al Gore declaration "the debate is over").
Still no answer to the challenge, "why is it necessary the only responses to this "problem" are restictions of personal freedom and confiscation of private property of average citizens?" , while the elites who advance these beliefs continue to live the high life.
Respect for private property is the cornerstone of the historically unparalleled freedom the common man had enjoyed in this country. That freedom is under more severe attack today than at any other time in our history except maybe at our inception (which was what caused the inception of the United States) "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance", Thomas Jefferson.
Earlier I referred to tactics used in speech/discussion/presentation. Without malice I’m sure (he’s likely mimicking those he’s sympathetic with) Steve used one of them, the “you’re (not necessarily aimed specifically at me) not informed/educated/sophisticated/whatever enough…….” tactic. You, probably as innocently, used the “he’s on an angry rant….” tactic. Dave used the “those who I don’t fully agree with are divisive……” tactic. All frequent and familiar tactics of the bigger megaphone I referred to earlier, intended to immediately diminish the opinions of the target but lacking in intellectual honesty. I accept my minority position in fearing for the assault on property rights for the common man, but that doesn’t diminish my willingness to challenge the popular narrative that supports greater power for political elites and their chosen supporters. My paternal ancestors came to this continent 370 years ago as indentured servants to escape the tyranny of elites, it’s a family tradition I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evolvo
370 years ago??? Doesnt that put you in a "special class" also?
I'm impressed that the proponents of the GW theory have their mind made up.....they're "scientists" but dont want to see any more information or theories....exclude all new material unless it fits my model!!!
I think that we should gather at least 1000 years of data using today's measuring devices before we go make an irrational decision and dork up the world's economy by "charging" for the right to pollute.
mike in tucson
Bob you are exactly the person I'm talking about, when I say we all have different opinions. No single person has the knowledge to desuade me. That means to me, that a collective group of scientist colaberating as a whole means more to me than one individual. Please don't put words in my mouth. I do not think I'm smarter than everyone here. Proof positive, I wouldn't be here seeking advice of people with a vast more information than I for my truck. But I am not nieve enough to buy into your argument either. Thats just me, based on my perception and experience. If you feel different than that is your opinion based on your knowledge and experience. I'm not willing to bet my ignorance on the worlds' future, maybe you are. Either way that is how I feel. Now post away, quote statistics, point to your fact based websites, pull info that people of your opinion will find and post it! I still can practice responsible consumerism and conserve where I can, yet I too am part of the problem.
Bob I appologize for my tone, I replied to your reply without reading the next page of posts. What I get from this is that we all probably want the same thing in the end, that is to preserve the earth we live on, but we have different ideas as how to get there, and that will always be. In fact it makes this a more interesting place to chat and speak.
ok lets look at this a little closer.steve sit back and take a deep breath and read what I have to say because I want to ask you ONE question at the end. now I a c5 teaching cert I have made a life long study of automotive technology almost 50 yrs starting with the first norris thermadore retrofit pcv sys state of the art in 1962 when I got my first lic took a test at the dmv to install and inspect (still in h.s.) working at a service station been involved ever since. taught auto tech and emissions at j.c. level for 12 yrs worked with arb. carb. and bar. in the 70s through the early 90s spoke on this issue a number of times at asc. bar conv. and meetings.so lets take a look at this remember that deep breath what was that 21% oxygen (o2) 78% nitrogen (no) 1% other gases in that 1% there is 232 gases 1 of them carbon-dioxide (co2) none of the alarmist can can tell you the exact % because it changes it changes from time of day. place to place. baro pres. humidity sunlight and other factors now all trees and plant life even weeds and mold breath it and expel oxygen the more co2 you feed them the more o2 they make they love the stuff. sorry but that's a fact. now in your car eng. when the piston goes down it draws in that same air along with tas metered buy the carb. or f.i. the ideal mixture is called stoichiometric 14.7 to1 buy weight so almost 8lb gas to about 117lb air of that about 25lb is o2 so the 02 and gas burned in the combustion process this causes heat heat is energy that heats the 78% nitrogen witch expands rapidly and pushes the piston down in this cycle the the 02 is burned and converted to co2 like in your body your lungs draw in air and puts the 02 into your blood and combine with the nutrients from that cheeseburger you had for lunch your hart sends it to your mussels they burn it and send it back to the lungs and you breath out co2 just like your car now what leaves the eng is about 100ppm hc (hydrocarbons) about 3% co (carbon monoxide) about 3% co2 (carbon dioxide) then the same nitrogen that went in plus h20 (water) that goes to the cat and is reduced to what we call owl eyes 00.00hc 00.00co 00.00 o2 and about3to4% 02 yes I know this because I have owned 2 auto repair shops over the years and still have a hamelto esp fics 3000 computer 4 gas infrared use it for fuel mixture and diagnosis now that we know to get c02 we have to burn 02 and it does not matter what we burn gasoline,diesel propane ethenal alchol or hydrogen or cheeseburger so steve here is the question with all the cars air planes boats ships jets power plants and people cows pigs horses and oh ya chickens in petaluma the egg capital of the world in this evil industrial world of ours HOW COME WE ARE NOT RUNNING OUT OF OXYGEN run that past the tree huggers ask them ....ted
You tell 'em Ted!
Ted when you sum it up so clearly I am stimied to find an answer. However try this one. As a marine biologist I studied algae lifecylces and learned that plankton absorb roughly 70% of earths co2 that they come in contact with and convert this by feeding on it to Oxygen which you and I and most other carbon based life forms breath. Now follow closely here Ted because I have a question for you at the end as well. As any poor slub who has taken chemistry knows, we as humans take in energy in the form of calories and break these down into key components called atp which are basic units of energy. When we metabolize in the presence of oxygen we get large amounts of atp, which when produced also produces carbon dioxide. Now when you deprive they metabolic system of o2 you start to anarobicly prducing atp in much smaller amounts but produce lots of carbon dioxide as a result (also known as ketoacidosis). No when a human starts doing this they develop respiratory distress, and pain usually associated with lactic acid build up and lack of oxygen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ted dehaan
So imagine what happens when say we start depriving the ocean of normal levels of healthy plankton. Were not talking rainforest devestation with 15% less oxygen, were talking oceans with roughly two thirds of your availible oxygen producing capacity. These little plankton don't like their salinity messed with or their temperature. So problems start occuring when certain types of things like melting of polar caps, and changes in temperature and salinity occur. Certain predators and competitors like stuff like nitrates and phosphates. They cause things that we relie on to die off. So if we just look at polution of the oceans and the effects on plankton, which absorb and balance the co2 o2 equation, that alone should cause lots of worry without throwing in increased co2 emmisions that can't be absorbed which elevate tempertures which in turn melt polar caps, which in turn further effect marine life which then lowers the plantons ability to produce oxygen, then we start wondering how long we can continue without converting to anarobic metabolism, going into a painfull respiratory arrest! But let's face it what do doctors and scientist know. Hell they claim cigarette smoking can cause cancer and kill yah, so Ted here we go.....Do you smoke?:D:D:D:LOL:
how come oxygen content in atmosphere a gas we can measure and we can prove has not changed for millions of years stays constant. we know it takes oxygen to make co2 but you chose to believe what people who have a political agenda to take control of more and more of your life when they tell you that co2 a gas that they say is rising but can't prove is causing a rise in global temp.that they can't prove and how do you explain the last 12 yrs. of this cooling cycle. .....ted p.s wake up and smell the bovine excrement
I do believe by measuring core samples of ice in the artic caps, co2 levels can be tracked quite well.
that has been proven to be a falsie. NOT TRUE. ...ted
the majority KNOWS ITS horsesh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!**)Quote:
Originally Posted by stovens
well since your so hot to trot on this global warming crap we will just carbon tax you into the gorund! let the rest of us be!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XU8jy...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ
co2 is not a toxic gas every time you breathe out you exhale co2!!!!!!!!!! ITS VAPOR.
anyitme someone speaks out against it your atuomatically an idiot or a nutjob. global warming people are EXTREMEISTS they may be enviromentalists but they are EXTREMEISTS to the 10th degree.
"liberalism is a mental disorder"
Guys - isn't it time to cool this discussion. The subject is almost too volatile to discuss on a family friendly and usually very non combative site. While I do agree with the non global warming side I will no longer debate this with anyone as it is no longer a win-lose argument.
So with that said COOL DOWN please and take these discussions to forums more fitting if you feel the need to air them out:toocool:
I melted some rubber today, did my part cutting back on my co2 footprint, only did a 50' burnout instead of 100'
Now there is a statement I can totally agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by IC2
im not mad?? who here is actually flustered by this thread. we are calm cool civil adults having a calm cool civil discussion. no harm no foul.