Lethal Weapon, Project A-Bucket

First, thanks jack, and stovens. It's those small words of encouragement that help to keep going and to try something I'm not sure I can pull off.

Well today I fit and welded up the frame. After looking at it for several days, and looking at other roadster windshields, I decided I did not like the shape. I think the wider at top kinda looks goofy. Just MHO. So I squared it up and so now the width is the same at 41" top and bottom.

Here's what it looks like all welded up.

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Nice....... But Wait! How am I going to put the glass in............:D

I decided to take a slightly different approach to attaching the top of the frame. I do know my limitations. And miter joints are definitely one of them. I was afraid I'd never get it to look good, and also the attachment method. So to get a good clean fit. I welded the frame solid. After it was smoothed I then cut the frame top off, square with upright, just below upper portion of frame. This way I would have a flat butt joint, NO miter.

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I found that the EMT I had would fit snugly over the 1/2" black pipe frame and was thin wall. I fashioned some pieces that would slide over the uprights 1 1/2" and can then be attached via a couple of machine screws on each side. I welded the sleeves on and smoothed the welds

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Here's what it looks like assembled.

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Oops that obviously was not assembled. One should preview the entire post first. I'll spank myself later. Unless Roadster32 gets one of his smilies after me first.

Now these pic's will show the frame assembled, less screws. I also want to wait to attach the 3/8-24 pivot bolts until I cut down the dodge roadster posts I found on ebay. Should be here Monday. That way they will be in the proper location. I do believe that will still be the same dimension as the speedway frame though. Bob was kind enough to measure for me. I believe it was 10 5/8" from bottom corner to center line of pivot.

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This shows a closeup of the corner. I think the EMT is thin enough to not be unsightly. Let me know what you guys think. I always value your comments and suggestions.

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Now I think I'll monkey around with a steering box, that may be a candidate for the build.

Finished the frame today. The windshield posts arrived yesterday, and I cut them down and attached to the lower mounts. They still need some finish work. I may use some steel epoxy to blend in the radius's or maybe fill in with some bronze rod and finish sanding. The pivot's ended up slightly lower than a standard 2" chopped windshield frame. But since you couldn't use A stanchions anyway, I don't suppose it matters. Once I get some A pivot's I will make a bushing to weld into the current pivot pockets. The dodge posts have slightly larger pivot pockets. All in all I am relatively pleased with the end result. It's a little crude by some standards, but it won't be a show rod either.
It may seam a little premature to do this now, as there is no real body yet. But I get a pretty good idea what that will look like now. And wanted to figure out the windshield before I got too far and maybe at that point it would require reworking to make it work. I thought my frame was off, lower arch, but after checking several times with a template, the arch is symmetrical, the passenger side of the cowl top is flattened somewhat on that side. It will be easy enough to get back in shape, I will have to fill the holes anyway.

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Until next time..............:D

lookin good!:D

Looks as good as any store bought! Nice work!:)

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Originally Posted by stovens

lookin good!:D

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Thanks, I appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by Mr Blue

Looks as good as any store bought! Nice work!:)

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Thanks Don, Usually things don't turn out as well as I would like them. But I did have to pat myself on the back on this one. It's not perfect, but close enough, and it wasn't made in China...........:D

Well looks like the cad motor is out.......... The guy my son worked with was let go, something about borrowing customers and work from the boss.... And since he didn't bring it when he said he would I was loosing hope that he would come thru. No biggie. I've got a 65 283, rebuilt sitting on an engine stand. OK its just the block. I picked it up for free. It had been rebuilt many years ago and sat under a bench in a plastic bag. The assembly lube turned into a pretty nice glue. And someone had robbed one piston and rod. I took the engine apart and checked everything. Crank std and mic's right on the mark. All bearings TRW clevite 77. I found a matching piston and rod. New Old Stock.

So all I have to do is balance the pistons and rods, and assemble. I'm going to use some later model 194 valve heads. This way I can run the crummy gas we have. I was going to put this motor in my 66, but it's my work truck, I guess I'll just get a reman long block for it.

So here's the plan for the roadster. 283, 3 carbs on Edlebrock manifold. Will go with Stromberg 97's or Holley 94's to keep a more vintage look. They are remaking the Fenton cast iron headers. Made famous on the Black Widow. So a set of those. Either a mallory dual point or maybe a Joe Hunt magneto. And a set of aluminum Corvette valve covers.

I've decided on a chopped 32 grill shell and insert. Possibly a hood top. I neglected to elaborate on my main reason for the bucket body, instead of door's. Of course it's easier for me to fabricate. But my main reason is I intend to build the body as a cage. 3 - 1 5/8 DOM door bars in each side, with vertical bars, like the cage in a stock car. This will all be hidden from view but will offer some crash protection from the idiot's on the road. Yeah I'm turning into an old fart and worry about such things. I'll try to incorporate a hoop in the cowl as well. A roll bar will add to the protection and look as well. It won't be near as strong as a complete cage, but will certainly offer some protection in the event of the worst. I also will use this to teach my 14 year old daughter to drive. It should be easy to drive and have very good visibility. Probably will even put 2" wide 4 point shoulder harness in it.

Now it ain't gonna be no Lethal Weapon, Mouse trap......... I don't know. You guys name it....... I know it has been a little boring, but it should start taking off in the next week or so. I haven't had much to work with. Hopefully next week will entail a trip to Westbrook Metals for some steel and sheet metal. I am going to look for a rear end tomorrow, and have several lines on brakes and hubs for the front. So I can get all laid out and heights where I want to start the chassis.

Hey Charlie, how about this for an idea!;)

Yeah Bob, that's what I think I'd like to have. But trying to find one local......
Since I'm not gonna drag it, or probably ever run it really hard, a banjo rear would be fine, and look good. I don't know anything about them, but I'm sure I could find the info. I'm gonna try to go tomorrow to a wrecking yard, they have some older stuff from time to time. Used to have a bunch of pre 60 stuff but scrap got really high and they crushed every bit. He had a 50 ford shoebox, complete original, not in too bab a shape, very little cancer, curshed..................:CRY:

Yeah, I saw your "want" ad this morning.

If you can be patient they show up. This one turned up a couple days before Christmas on C/L..........only about 3 miles from my house. Then a couple weeks ago a 9" out of a '57 Ford fell into my lap. Two hard to find and very desireable units in a couple months. Ya just never know. Keep your eyes peeled.

And they usually turn up when your not looking.......:LOL: I don't think I'll get something just to get it. But if I run across one with the right dimensions and is an older rear end I'll probably snag it. I could kick myself for not picking up that olds rear end a couple years ago. I didn't need it and had too much junk. I just wasn't thinking............... I know where I can pick up a Franklin, priced really right, but still more than I want to pay for a rear end. And it would have to be narrowed and axle's changed. And honestly sometimes I can be a really cheap bast#*d..........:D

Well it's finally taking off. Picked up steel Tuesday, tires arrived. And more goodies coming in every day.

Here's some of the goodies. My UPS guy thought I was mad at him.....:LOL:
because he has stopped so little in the last 6 months.

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Thats some of it. Didn't take pics of everything. I had to make some preliminary cuts in the steel so I could fit into the garage. They ended coming out really close, didn't waste more than 1/4 on each piece.

Ok the first step in the frame for body was to cut the radius for the rear corners. I used some 1/8" x 3" plate, cut then clamped together and ground smooth with a disc to assure they were symmetrical.

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The two finished corners.

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First I clamped the pieces to the plywood to keep them in proper alignment.
Then I began attaching the top and bottom rails. I used 1 1/2" box .120 wall for this. If you can see the outside edge is following the radius of cab side. This will allow me to attach sheet metal more easily. I'll probably plug weld to rails then weld the seams.

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Next I attached the rear top and bottom rails, followed by two 1 5/8" DOM door bars. And 1 spreader bar in the rear.

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I also temp. hung the dash. Because I moved the cowl posts inward I needed to remove the side mounts, which will later be trimmed and refit, so the dash attachés in the factory manner.

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This is a 32 style made to fit the 28 29 closed cab A's. Looks pretty nice. I've got a 49 Pontiac Silver Streak instrument cluster I hope to fit into the center.

I attached the front of the rails to the cowl posts. It looks like 18 ga. and I welded the tubes with no danger of burn thu, so I supposed that would be good enough. Still way stronger than the side of a stock roadster, but I thought I needed a beefier post. So I took some left over 1 1/2 and cut a couple of slots, with my 20.00 miter saw converted to chop saw. This allowed me to make it fit the curve better.

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Clamped them down to the table and welded them up.

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Finished posts

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Clamped them in place and welded them. The welding is not finished here. I'll finish weld and trim the post sheet metal when I disassemble, to cut out the gas tank, and patch cowl sides and reattach the pieces I trimmed out when I moved the posts in.

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And after that I decided to fab up the center section of the frame. I layed it out on the mockup floor. I made it 1" narrower so as to have approx 1/2" body hang over edge of the frame. The front u channel cross member is just a temp brace spot welded until I get the frame rails finished and a couple cross members in. I am doing it this way because I don't know how much rise in the front rails, so again I'll mock it up. Place body on center section of frame. With the frame blocked up at desired ride height, then place ft axle, engine, trans and rear end in place and then connect the dots.

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The back of the center section will have to be cut out, but this way it will stay together and square until I get the frame further along. Same with the rear lower rail in the body, may have to cut and make a loop for drive shaft. Although with the body on top the frame I may not need to in the rear, we shall see.

Well that all for today. It should move along pretty good now, as I have something to work with. I will try to take lots of pics as it progresses. I hope to have it a roller by April 1'st..............:D

Well here's about what it looks like after 6 days of cutting and welding. Almost a roller. Just a few more little things and I'll blow it apart and do all the finish welding and plating. I threw on some engine goodies for a look and a little inspiration. Haven't done much this week, a few gussets, and rear engine mounts. This pic was taken Saturday, started the Saturday before. I'll not bore you with all the pics and details of the construction of spring mounts and radius rod mounts, unless someone wants the pics and details. Then I will be more than glad to post those shots and construction details..........

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Great progress!
We have great hopes.... Keep it up.

Thanks Scooter, if anything it will go by too fast. I am building it mostly for something to do. I like the fabrication. So I should take more time, to stretch it out, make it last longer. But when I get my teeth into something it's hard to turn loose..........:D

Great stuff, keep the pics coming please

It gets so exciting when you get to this point, doesn't it? :D Starts looking something like a car finally.

Don

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

It gets so exciting when you get to this point, doesn't it? :D Starts looking something like a car finally.

Don

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Sure does, only problem is it's hard to sit and make the vroom vroom noise.................:LOL: I'll just be glad when I can roll it around. I don't really have room for both in the garage, so I spent 2 days moving everything so I could get the 48 in at nite and when I'm gone during the day. What was I thinking....................:D

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Originally Posted by roadster32

Great stuff, keep the pics coming please

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Will do Steve. So what are you whittling out of stainless this week?......:LOL:
I can't do the quality you can, but I sure like looking at your shinny stuff....:D

Good progress!!!! Always seems like Christmas when the big brown truck stops at the door, huh??

Update, Did all the finish welding on the chassis. Got all the ends capped and joints plated. I do think I will add some braces to the trans cross member a K towards the front, but will hold off on that till I'm sure of placement. Modified some F1 shock mounts and mounted to frame horns. I drilled frame and welded in some tubes for 7/16" bolts. I welded some bungs on the axle, made from some 1" DOM thick wall tapped to 5/8-18 threads and then cut a small plate from some 3/16", cut a 1" hole and welded that on for some additional support on the outer end of the bung. There is alot of stress on shock mounts and I have seen alot that have cracked with age. Also mostly got the gas tank mounted it's an 8 or 9 gal air tank I saved for such a use. I rarely put more than $20 bucks in one at a time, and that's when gas was below $3 a gal. I want the tank below the bed, and have room for a battery carrier on the pass side next to the tank. I'll put the filler neck in the top with some sort of cover in the bed to access it. Same for the battery, although I may go for a drop out type carrier, but still like to have access in case I need to jump it or whatever. Here's a few pic's. there hasn't been much interest so I haven't shown the step by step, type posts I had intended. But if someone has the interest I will be glad to show and describe in more detail any of the aspects of the build so far.

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The shocks should give you great control in that position. What would we rodders have done if Ford didn't use those mounts on their early pickups? :LOL: Looks great so far.

Don

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

The shocks should give you great control in that position. What would we rodders have done if Ford didn't use those mounts on their early pickups? :LOL: Looks great so far.

Don

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Thanks Don, I used a similar setup on my other one, although I made the shock towers, but very similar angle.. That axle had shock stud holes in the axle. That one drives straight as an arrow, at all speeds.......:D

Very Nice work and what a brilliant idea to use the old air tank for the fuel,it certainly looks good under there.

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Originally Posted by dlotraf33

Here's a few pic's. there hasn't been much interest so I haven't shown the step by step, type posts I had intended. But if someone has the interest I will be glad to show and describe in more detail any of the aspects of the build so far.

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I hope you don't let the number of replys make you think there is little interest in this build. You have had over 2300 visits and probably most of them are like me. I usually prefer just to watch, learn and enjoy without making a response. You have shown an amazing amount of ingenuity in the build and I really love that. So many builds are done with a credit card and a Summit catalog....the low buck approach you are using is very refreshing and educational. I have seen the same in your other builds. Keep the pics coming.

I gotta agree with Resto..I dont ask many questions,but I am all eyes when it comes to pix,,maybe I/we should ask more questions,,but when you post pix,I feel I dont need to..Keep em coming,looks kool..:cool:

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Originally Posted by Whiplash23T

Very Nice work and what a brilliant idea to use the old air tank for the fuel,it certainly looks good under there.

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Well it works. Used a 13 gal air tank on my other one. It would be nice to pick up the catalog and order one. But sometimes they don't have what I want, and mostly I can't afford to buy everything. I try to buy only what I can't make. Or splurge for that goodie, like the moon tank........:D This is a low buck build.............. meaning somewhere in the 8000 to 10000 range. Man when you say it......... it seams like a fortune but you can't buy much for that anymore.......:CRY:

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Originally Posted by RestoRod

I hope you don't let the number of replies make you think there is little interest in this build. You have had over 2300 visits and probably most of them are like me. I usually prefer just to watch, learn and enjoy without making a response. You have shown an amazing amount of ingenuity in the build and I really love that. So many builds are done with a credit card and a Summit catalog....the low buck approach you are using is very refreshing and educational. I have seen the same in your other builds. Keep the pics coming.

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Well I'm kinda new to this, computer thing, and I have glanced at the views but it never really registered with me, I guess. And I personally don't do much posts of the "atta boy" type post, unless I am really amazed. Like most anything Roadster32 does. So I'll just keep posting the pics, maybe go back and add more from earlier. I'll just look at the visits so I'll know you all are still watching. Just grunt every now and then so I know you haven't fallen asleep...............:D

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Originally Posted by lamin8r

I gotta agree with Resto..I dont ask many questions,but I am all eyes when it comes to pix,,maybe I/we should ask more questions,,but when you post pix,I feel I dont need to..Keep em coming,looks kool..:cool:

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Thanks to both you and Resto, forgot that earlier, :o. And the other side of that coin is....... If the pic's are good enough and explained........ well what's left to ask......... Ok...... I get it. :) But as always if you feel the need, ask or offer sugestions........ Thanks again to all, for your compliments.

Yeah, if they don't like your posts you will know about it. Your log on button self destructs! :eek::eek::LOL:

Sometimes we just like to look and can't think of anything to add. :)


Don

If the top of the F1 mount was curved over towards the wheel the shocks would work much more effectively, Coming on well.

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

The shocks should give you great control in that position. What would we rodders have done if Ford didn't use those mounts on their early pickups? :LOL: Looks great so far.

Don

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Keep posting the pics mate as we love to see pics :D

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Originally Posted by dlotraf33

Well I'm kinda new to this, computer thing, and I have glanced at the views but it never really registered with me, I guess. And I personally don't do much posts of the "atta boy" type post, unless I am really amazed. Like most anything Roadster32 does. So I'll just keep posting the pics, maybe go back and add more from earlier. I'll just look at the visits so I'll know you all are still watching. Just grunt every now and then so I know you haven't fallen asleep...............:D

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Originally Posted by roadster32

If the top of the F1 mount was curved over towards the wheel the shocks would work much more effectively, Coming on well.

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I don't know, Steve, sometimes they work TOO well in more of an upright position. One member on another forum posted that his hot rod rode like a truck, too firm. When I looked at his pictures everything looked very well done, good components and installed correctly. Then I noticed he had put the lower shock mounts on the wrong sides, and it was moving his shocks in at the bottom, making them more upright. I posted the picture of my front end and how they were intended to be mounted, and he changed them.

I have had people comment that mine are laid over too far, but they have been on there for over 20 years and the car has literally thousands of miles on it and handles like a sportscar. I also feel the shocks in this position give a little more lateral control, sort of acting as antisway bars. So, I guess there is more than one opinion on this subject. :):)

Don

On the shock deal, they are rated at 100% at verticle, then diminish in effectiveness as angled. There are some charts floating around out there that show the numbers, but I don't have it handy right now. That being said, on these old transverse setups the angle can be less of a "negative" because the suspension tends to pivot on the spring center in most highway/real world use, only occasionally will the axle move evenly at both ends (such as driving across a swale). The possible additional problem on the example Pops mentioned of the shocks being mounted with the bottoms more toward the center of the chassis is a comparative lack of leverage for the rate of the shock.

BTW, Mopar had a similar shock bracket to the Ford F1.

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Originally Posted by roadster32

If the top of the F1 mount was curved over towards the wheel the shocks would work much more effectively, Coming on well.

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Ideally you are correct. The best location would be so the shock would be in a straight line intersecting the arc the wheel travels. So this is a compromise. Although with a solid axle the arc does not remain constant. Now mind you this is only my opinion from building and racing stock cars. Sometimes I have to remind myself I need to turn right as well.....:LOL: This location was based on shock length, so there would be proper travel. The length of shock tower, adequate clearance for the steering arm on drivers side, and maintaining some angle, relative to the arc that the axle pivots around. I have found also that even rod shocks are really designed for heavier vehicles, not the lighter cars that they are installed on. The angle serves a couple of purposes. First it softens the shock some, second it offers better roll control, body roll in a turn, and third as Don pointed out is offers some lateral stability, chassis in relation to axle. And then there is ascetics. And sometimes we trade function for form, at least a little.

One of the things that I do on the transverse spring setup is to preload the spring slightly. What I mean by this is when the spring pivots are tightened they actually pull on the spring. For a 26" spring I use 31" inside to inside between pivot mounts. So when I tighten up pivot bolts it pulls the spring about 1/4" to 3/8". I hope that makes sense. Now I may be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but when I hear talk of a panard bar on a transverse spring setup, even with cross steer, I feel that the front end is not properly set up. I feel too much slop in spring shackles is the real cause. A preload on the spring acts to center the chassis to the axle and offer some amount of force to uncenter it. The normal force of cross steering action should not want to move the axle laterally in relation to the chassis. As stated before, just my opinion. Now coil on front, ie the way Roth used them on many of his rods is entirely different.

Opps........ One small clarification on the previous post. As for the cross steer statement, that was relative to radius rod or wishbone setup. I don't like the way 4 link looks and as such have no experience with that setup, it may very well need a panard bar. I just realized I had not taken that setup into account. Didn't want to get anybodys panties in a bunch this morning............:D