Thread: 454 or 460?

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I love a good fight.
I'll put $5 on the BBC.

Originally Posted by maddddog

I love a good fight.
I'll put $5 on the BBC.

some guys on here would take that action

Originally Posted by tigers83

I have a pulling truck with a 454 BBC and it has the best of everything in my opinion but I was told that 460 puts out a lot more torque than a 454. Is that true?

In reply to your question, I'll put it this way: On more than one occastion I've seen 700hp BBF's beat 800 hp BBC's.

One of the bizarre misunderstandings that the 460 seems to have from the non-enthusiasts is that they "don't rev." That puzzles me; what difference does it matter what name is on the engine relative to how much potential it has to rpm????? This is a common misonception among non-Ford enthusiasts and probably points back as far as the beginning and the 460 being introduced in a Lincoln Continental as a 2000 rpm tug boat engine, and carries on from that point forward for several other reasons. A better, inbiased perspective about the 460 might be the following: The 429/460 very easily generates a broad range of power and so it is usually unecessary to spin the rpms up high in order to claim big peak hp numbers. In fact, it's not uncommon to find 454's & 460's that generate the same peak numbers, but the 460 does so at a lesser rpm. This is a big advantage, as,

• lesser pricey performance parts are mandatory
• parts last longer/wear less relative to engine hours of operation
• the engine ends up being more realiable
• the engine lasts longer due to reduced loads and abuse relative to rpm.

But this does not mean that the 460 cannot be built to rev. It can, and they do....in most cases it's simply not necessary. Chebby guys will point to there smaller main journals, and that has it's advantages..but so do bigger mains, though, and 9000 rpm is as feasible in a Ford 460 as it is in a 454 chebby. In fact, either engine can spin high enough that the valve train becomes as much a problem in either engine as would main bearings.

I know a few pullers in Iowa that run their BBF's against the finest competition out there and stand up to most all of it. Brett Powell runs in a 470 class with OEM iron block, heads, crank, and even the iron intake and he runs 8500 rpm sustained with 9100 rpm peaks, for 21-27 seconds at a time (try that with your engines, quarter mile guys!). Terry Bumgarner has seen in excess of 10,000 rpm with his production cast 429/460 crankshaft combos. 460-based engines can rev but they don't necesarily have to, except for maybe in a few applications such as your pulling application.

Then there's the "you can't get parts for Fords," or, "the Ford parts are expensive." These are also outdated beliefs by enthusiasts of other brands that are simply unaware of what is available for these engines today, such as the over 40 different cylinder heads that are out there. BTW, we 460 guys usually hear of the "poor flowing exhaust port" on the OEM heads. If that's all we have to worry about, then that's great! One little portable port? I'd much, much rather address something as simple and negligible as flow characteristics/port shaping than more involved mods of correcting the Brand x's inferior valve angles, inferior spark plug location, inferior combustion chamber shape and volume, etc. And that's just talking cylinder heads. From the factory the 460 is a "tall deck" motor compared to the chebby, has shorter (end effectively stiffer) pushrods, the cam is higher in the block, has bigger diameter lifters, all OEM blocks can handle more stroke without crankcase clearancing, better OEM rod ratio, superior gerotor design oil pump, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

The 454 has time on its side, meaning that what's nice about the 454 is that people have been exploring them for decades and decades and learned how to make them work well considering what they have to work with. Conversely, the Ford is unfamilar and unexplored terriroty for most, and so these people either shy away or they don't know how to make them strong reliable engines (which is easier than most people realize). In fact, most non-enthusiasts are immediatly confused by all the Ford engine famlies (Mopar and Chebby had only their "big block" & "small block" engine families in the muscle car era, while Ford has the 385 Series, the FE Family, the MEL, the Y Block, etc.) Many don't realize that the 429/460 engine is a new and unique engine family unto itself, and is not part of the old FE platform. And fortunately, the potential of this engine is now being proven regularly time and again.

Another nice thing about the 385 Series engine is the parts interchangability, which is practically everything from the begining of production in 1968 all the way to the end of production three decades later, while comparitively speaking chebby's are all over the map parts interchange-wise...please correct me if I am mistaken:

• The Gen 5&6 blocks have the oil passageway alongside the cam and into the lifter valley instead of down the oil pan rail as on the Mark IV. The oil pans do not interchange between these blocks, and also the Gen 5&6 use a one piece rear main seal and differant oil pan then the Mark IV.
• Timing covers were changed in all three.
• The Gen 6 uses a cam thrust plate, not the Mark IV. But the Gen 5 and Mark IV also have provisions to use this plate if a Gen 6 cam was to be used.
• The oil filter boss on the Mark IV uses a bolt-in adapter with an oil pressure relief inside, while the Gen 5&6 filters mate straight to the block with a screw-in adapter and push-in oil pressure relief valves into the block itself.
• Both Gen 5&6 do not have a fuel pump boss, while the Mark IV does.
• The Gen 6 lifter bores are longer/higher with a machined flat surface to accept the roller lifters and their retianers; Gen 5 and Mark IV blocks cannot use the Gen 6 roller lifter and would need aftermarket.
• Coolant flow on both the Gen 5 and 6 were redesigned to increase flow...coolant passages were also made larger on the Gen 5 and Gen 6, therefore making it more difficult to use Mark 4 heads on these newer blocks (though a few people have done it with success).
• The 10.200 "Tall Decks" (if you can call them that, as their deck height is still shorter than the Ford) are a different animal altogether.
• Etcetera

None of the above is true about the Ford 460. All parts interchange between the carbureted engines except that the 1978 & earlier crankshaft will not fit the 1979 & later blocks (actually they can fit with just 20 minutes of grinding).

The chebby's got the head start on all the aftermarket parts some decades ago, but also I think BBC's have needed all those aftermarket parts while a built 460 using a combination of stock block, heads, and crank can support in excess of 700HP with a single carb and possibly more if you want to spin it up high like a chebby. My biz partners were generating 4-figure hp with OEM passenger car block/heads/cast crankshaft 460's decades ago when no-one else would go near these engines.

So the BBF does not need to be spun so high to make the power of a chebby, which means its parts will last longer, be more relaiable, not rely on so many aftermarket parts to get the HP, etc. But these particular attributes may not apply in your form of competition. But the engine will make lots of power nevertheless.

Be sure to find a builder that knows the 460 well, and he should be able to create a very competetive combo for you. I know of three very reputable builders in Iowa; if you need names PM me...sorry no-one in Nebraska that I am aware.

Paul

The entire time I was reading this thread ,I was like ,I hope Paul sees this and bam ,here he is on the last page!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by maddddog

I'll put $5 on the BBC.

maddog, I agree with your wager; I too wouldn't dare bet more than five bucks against the 460.

Paul

so many things well were to start the bbc was the mark4 all parts work up to the 89 or so on the cam every cam made up to mark 6 will fit in a bbc the 402 block may not be drill for the trust plate but not hard to do if you want the gm roller cam in a older block ?the older cam will work in the newer mark 6 block with a button with the right chain set.. not a big deal less you work only on fords rear main seal all bbc two piecs will work in any block to mark 6 with adapter not to big of a deal just like sbc chevy did this you can buy the crank both ways as for the oil pan and timing cover i did not get the GM memo on this i would have told them not to touch it . the new block is new?? well some stuff will not fit BUT for over 25 years all the same parts will work still alot of the stuff will and can fit new heads will work on older block just one of them thing s were if you do not know much about bbc them it could be a problem just is not a big of a deal as some would like to make it gm went to a taller lifter bore for the roller lifters. 429/460 there not many engines base off the ford 385 block. ford part are not all the same 1990 heads have small ports different ring pack different oil pans and pickups have been made they did not go to roller in 1991? for the 460 no fuel pump in the cover not a big deal who runs a stock fuel pump???just like the chevy THINGS CHANGE all the down falls of the chevy seams funny to me that they made them from 366/427 to396/454 and bigger as crate blocks tall and short deck and they must work good the chevy454bbc will take a sbc chevy distributor not a big deal but with a ford it is as for the gm oil pump it good it works and with very small mount of work can be better chevy big blocks do not have big oil problems with stock oil pumps can run past 7000 rpm there maybe some fords that can run .but there is a hell of alot more bbc that do just fine mercuser could of used any engine they used the bbc some of the best off shore top boat builder use bbc .like i said i will build and machine any engine the ford s need work and in stock form still have some spots that need to be fixed

Who likes Pepsi?? Who likes Coke??

Originally Posted by 65ny

Who likes Pepsi?? Who likes Coke??

I like Dr. Pepper!!!!

The old Ford V Chevy argument has been going on for 100 years now and I doubt anyone has changed their mind yet!!!!

Originally Posted by 65ny

Who likes Pepsi?? Who likes Coke??

if am parch i will take a RC and if i need to pay bills i will work on fords but when i driving down the road i drive donovan bbc or my bow tie block drinking a coke that would be cherry

I hate to say it cause I'm a ford guy.
When I was building Ambulence engines back some year's ago, we built the crap out of all the big blocks. They were all balanced with all the goodies on them.
This was up in farwell, Michigan. next to Clair.
The place was R. K Holdens, we also did fire engines and police cars.
It was all farm country out there for hundreds of miles.
These guy's would drive the paramedic unit's wide open no govener's on them.
You know the big box type Ambulence that was like pushin the wind with a brick wall.
Out of Dodge, Ford and Chevy the only one that stood up or that we had the least
problems with was the BBC 454. I hate to say it but the Dodge and the Ford would always have problems. And these were well built motor's with all the good stuff. Kurt

Originally Posted by Paul Kane

maddog, I agree with your wager; I too wouldn't dare bet more than five bucks against the 460.

Paul

Uhhhhh, I might want to change my bet.
I know nothing.
I just have one (bbc)
I will be shutting up now.

Nice read though.

Originally Posted by Paul Kane

In reply to your question, I'll put it this way: On more than one occastion I've seen 700hp BBF's beat 800 hp BBC's.

One of the bizarre misunderstandings that the 460 seems to have from the non-enthusiasts is that they "don't rev." That puzzles me; what difference does it matter what name is on the engine relative to how much potential it has to rpm????? This is a common misonception among non-Ford enthusiasts and probably points back as far as the beginning and the 460 being introduced in a Lincoln Continental as a 2000 rpm tug boat engine, and carries on from that point forward for several other reasons.
Paul

What Paul said! The guy knows more about the potential of the 460 than anyone I've ever met! Been helpfull to me from the start here. If I was building a BBC Pat would be very helpfull too! Lets accept the fact that nothing said here will change brand loyalty, but I like learning about the versatility of the different builds.

I think the bad part about 460s are the heads. I remember a 460 build that Car Craft did a while back and the differece between stock and aftermarket head was huge;100+ HP or something. Also I believe parts generally cost more. I built several 454's; you just can beat the imposing look of those wide valvecovers. I'll have to go for the Chevy.

Originally Posted by stovens

What Paul said! The guy knows more about the potential of the 460 than anyone I've ever met! Been helpfull to me from the start here. If I was building a BBC Pat would be very helpfull too! Lets accept the fact that nothing said here will change brand loyalty, but I like learning about the versatility of the different builds.

it has not one thing about brand loyalty it has to do with facts i seen more bbc come back from the dead take more rpms in a mild form not allways planned. paul know s more then many about the potential of the 460 that very well could be BUT if he is only a hand full now that is bad . that saying that any one but a hand full of shops know how to build them ? thats bad for you ford guys ??there is still more bbc at the track on the street getting the hell beat out over the fords. they are more then a hand full of guys that can build a good 454 if you know any thing of boat racing any other sports the BBC and SBC still get used alot the sbf is caching up to the sbc i would say still are on the top and that is a hell of a job that is the facts .i machine up 460s i own a 460 i see spots on the 460 i do not like in stock form thats not a in stock bbc thats from a guy that is a engine/ machine shop guy the 2 things a ford has over a chevy and one can be a big deal others are not 460 have big bores this is a plus. wide oil pan rails of bigger cranks not to big of a deal i have put 4.375 cranks in short deck bbc .4.750 in the 10.200

Originally Posted by falconvan

I think the bad part about 460s are the heads. I remember a 460 build that Car Craft did a while back and the differece between stock and aftermarket head was huge;100+ HP or something. Also I believe parts generally cost more. I built several 454's; you just can beat the imposing look of those wide valvecovers. I'll have to go for the Chevy.

The late 60's early 70's heads including the dove heads did some pretty good stock horse power without any tweaking. I'm also willing to bet that after market 454 heads will easily increase horse power by 100 over stock too. It's why they are made aftermarket.
I'm not a more power nut, so I'm happy with my 460 with stock heads, that still is putting out a tremondous amount of power. I'm not baggin the 454, hell every kid in highschool seemed to be building them in the 70's, just saying, as Paul has above, the 460 seems seriously missunderstood engine. Ford also got the distributor placement right!