Has anybody build a 400 horsepower flathead?
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Has anybody build a 400 horsepower flathead?
With good blocks and rotating assemblies and a supercharger, it is possible...but I haven't heard about it. I have a '53 flathead I'm getting ready to supercharge, but I won't see more than 200 even if I'm lucky.
I saw a funny saying one time relating to building a flathead. It went "you will never spend so much money to go so slow.":) But they do look and sound cool.
Don
How about giving us some direction of where you'd like to go or better yet, what have you got and what would you like to see.
"Spend so much money to go so slow", dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.
Flatheads without cracked blocks are hard to find
Good go-fast parts are scarce and expensive
If you did get one to 400 horse, doubt the bottom end would live very long as they're lacking on main bearing caps.....
im sellin mine that checked out fine 500 miles ago...
"Spend so much money to go so slow", dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.[/QUOTE]
Really? Well let me try to un-dumb it for you a little then. To build a really right flathead (not just one with some aluminum heads, a couple of strombergs, and some hometown machine work) you are going to have a minimum of $ 4K in the motor and more like $ 5K+. Toss a blower on top and the price goes up from there. For that expenditure you end up with an engine that pulls about as strong as a good running 283 Chevy, maybe a little better with the huffer on top. So from a dollars per hp perspective they don't make sense.
On the other side of the coin I "get" why people build them. In fact we have 2 flatheads laying on the shop floor waiting for some future projects, a 46 and a 49. I love em. But I also realize I will have to box them up, ship them to someone like H and H who knows these motors, and spend a few dollars to have them done right. For that money I won't be getting a monster. Oh sure, it will pull darned good for a flathead and the troops will love seeing it at rod runs, but if I wanted torque I would spend my dollars on some OHV that would give more return on my investment.
That's all I am saying. There was a reason most of us older guys grew up yanking flatheads out of 50 Fords and shoving everything from Olds to early hemis in them...........we learned we could get more bang for the buck with the newer motors and get HP numbers the flathead could never attain.
Don
Just to add to Pops comment, in 1966 my car building buddy was putting together a '36 Ford pickup. We went to our friendly local junk yard in Victorville hoping to find a decent flatty (cause they were CHEAP, we were in the Air Force not making much $, and it would be a bolt in). Our buddy behind the counter said "I've got just what you need" and took us into the back room. There in a couple crates was a freshly machined 59ab block, crank, and all the new parts to put it together. Oh, and a pie tin blower to boot.......................$25! There just wasn't a market for that stuff then.
At Bonneville a couple montha ago was talking to a guy with a sweet little 'liner that used to run a flathead V8. It now has a Nissan V6. The guy said he just couldn't afford to build enough horsepower into a flatty any more. The cycle continues........
Go so slow???? Guess you haven't seen some of the flatties that are running in the 8's in the quarter. So your remark about the money is right on but the part about going so slow is way off.
Sure, there was one that ran 300 at B-Ville as I recall, but I'm talking about your average street driven flatmotor. Like I said, I love them and will build one hopefully in the next couple of years, but I have no illusions that the money I dump into it will return nearly what it would have yielded in a modern OHV, or even a bone stock 350 or similar. But that isn't why we build them, unless you are shooting for 7 second quarters, and I bet those are some VERY expensive engines. :)
Don
Flathead Fords - I love 'em, but 400Hp is not cheap. Guys used to circle track 'cross fire' (180 degree crank). They used to make a lot of Hp - usuall for a short time before the grenade went off!! This is a real nice website to spend some time with:
http://www.midstateantiquestockcarcl...at_heads5.html.
These are tracks that I used to haunt years ago. Dave S - you should enjoy looking at these articles:D
You can buy a brand new blown Ardun for $53,000, now figure horse power per dollar?
For the money, your going to go pretty slow, ya got to love 'em!
Ken
Depends on whether you know what the hell you're doing.
My customers don't get bent over and I don't reside at Fantasy Island.
Those numbers are easy to achieve and the motors live to see a lot of days of cruising and rodding.
Everybody freely uses the terms "Used to" and "Way back when".
Those days are long gone.
For decades, these "antiques" have remained my livelyhood.
It's not rocket science nor difficult to achieve if you remember what you learned in school and the repeat business of a good Flathead build.
Simple enough.
What's the typical cost of one of your modern flatheads and what kind of HP do they turn out?
Don
Not "Modern" flathead just geometrically sound.
The last one was a 221 punched to 240. Customer didn't want the extra stroke and settled for the bill of 4800. HP of 392/410trq.
No bottom end problems.
Glenn Schisel just came by to see if I was ready for his V-12 Zephyr project.
Flat heads are not my joy, too simple and too picky customers, but pay the bills.
Blocks from France are cheap and available. Rods, pistons, heads, cams, etc are affordable and plenty.
I grind the cranks as to the project. Stroke 'em, use common geometry sense and build an affordable peice.
Wanna 440 Hp unit with out blowing out the main webs? 4.5 stroke with a French block, easy cubes with a good bore, no problem.
Everybody worries about the three main web problem. Affordable caps and a good block brings an easy number.
Now, do I smell a challenge or were you just busting my chops?
The 221 went out at $4800.....the bigger stuff still leaves the door under $7600.
I understand....Sometimes a person can smell a RAT and has to approach the questionaire with caution and fortitude.
Don, in all seriousness, the flatty has become a piece to build for power and looks....I scratch certain parts of my anatomy trying to figure out the nay sayer's and the "searchers" for the truth.
This is a topic of nostalgic interest to me. I still have a 4" crank from a '49-'50 Merc along with flywheel and rods available for half of what Speedway charges for a new crank, just let me know if anyone is interested. They say memories of younger days are better than of yesterday so I can see in my mind a cover of Hot Rod Magazine in the Fall of 1955 showing a flathead that dynoed over 400 H.P. If there is any way to find the microfilm archives of HRM tthat might be of interest. All of this is way out of range for my pocketbook and long ago I recognized that you can build a SBC-350 that will produce 300 H.P. (maybe more) for under $2000, but yeah I would like to hear a 59AB rumble again, it is just something that I will have to look/listen for at meets, not in my garage! The "rap rap rap" of glasspacks or Smitties on a flathead would be music to my ears.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
So, the goodies you have are for the 59AB?
I'm curious for a period correct poject.
I don't know if Ron Sterbenk's 1100 lb, 304" N/A Flathead V8, front engine dragster is pushing 400 HP, but his 1/4 mile ET's run in the high 8:80, best: 8.72 at Sacramento.
Best MPH: 157 at Bakersfield. All on 75% Nitro....Ron does all his own machine work on the engine/car. .....Mac1
Nitrowarrior,
V8 Flathead 240"/392 HP; at what boost? Can't be N/A!
Maxb49, Bob can tell you the exact year the flathead went to insert bearings, 1939? I know the 21 stud blocks had babbit bearings so maybe any 24 stud block will accept the later Merc 4" crank. As far as I know the '49-'52 Merc crank will fit in the 59A, 59AB and 8BA blocks. Bring a truck, I also have a rebuilt 59A with a bad crack but other good internal parts and an 8BA block with a scored cylinder and a broken water pump ear. A good machine shop might be able to make a good engine out of this but it is beyond my financial capability. The obvious answer is to buy one of those french NOS blocks if you have the funds. You are probably going to chop the flywheel anyway so my Merc flywheel should do. I pulled the crank, flywheel, rods and pistons out of a '50 Merc block in a junkyard but you will probably need new pistons after a clean up bore. By the way I looked at quite a few flathead blocks before I gave up and went to a SBC 350 and the overwhelming problem is that folks have bored the flathead blocks more than once or too much and then the thin walls run hot and crack between the cylinder and valve pockets right where you want to relieve the ports. Recall that the basic 59A block only had 3 1/16" bore so if that is the main mold for the later blocks the sleeves will be mighty thin with a 3 3/8" bore! On the other hand the 59A block I have has a 2" long crack along the bottom edge of the head surface over the exhaust ports. That said it would seem that if you find a good useable block any boring should be the least that you can find pistons for. For what it is worth there are main cap girdle kits which would seem to be essential with only three main caps. Gee I fretted over having only a two bolt SBC block but there are at least five main caps so thinking back to the flathead situation with only three mains reminds me of pictures in Hot Rod Magazine covering the Bonneville events in the 1950s where it was evidently common to see ruined bottom ends on the sand, how common I don't know but I do recall seeing several pictures of folks looking sadly at broken cranks and twisted rods, so that three cap crank is a limit. If I would have found a good block my intention was to build a mild flathead with a 4" crank and just 3 5/16" bore with an Isky Jr. cam and take what I got in the way of performance, but while I think a 400 H.P. flathead can be built, it might not last very long? Just for the sake of chitchat, I recall reading a Model T article which described a machine shop project that milled two T blocks at a 45 degree angle on the bottom end and made a V8 from two T blocks which was claimed to be a mighty powerful engine but since the siamesed rods had to be shaved to half thickness to share a common space on the T crank the rod bearing surface was way too small and the rods did not last very long. Maybe that is where Henry got the idea for a V8? At the moment it is interesting to me that even the SBC 350 is getting close to an antique engine so maybe it is a good idea to buy up a few 350s for future value?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Bob, That is interesting that some 21 stud blocks did have insert bearings. When did the 24 studs appear, 1939? My copy of "The V8 Affair" by Ray Miller gives some details on the engine specifications but not all. It seems from what is given that quite a few dimensions on the crank changed in 1939 (59A block) so I am guessing that is the earliest that the Merc crank would fit. Back in the 50s I remember several 59AB engines fitted with the 4" crank and as I recall the '41 Merc had the 3 3/16" bore while the Fords had only the 3 1/16" bore but after WWII both the Fords and Mercs had the same 3 3/16" bore 59AB blocks from '46 to '48. From '49-'52 the Fords again had the smaller 3 3/4" crank while the Mercs had the 4" stroke. A long time ago I had a '38(?) block which I do believe had insert bearings but only 21 studs. I bought it for $10 and planned to put it in a Model A but scrapped it when I realized it was only a 21 stud block and to my youthful mind would not be as good as the 24 stud engines in all the Hot Rod Magazine pictures but that is long ago and the block was later scrapped so that is only a moot point memory. Another useful technical book is "Rebuilding the Famous Ford Flathead" by Ron Bishop which is a paperback that was available from Tab Books, Inc. and it has some better tables of specifications.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
400 hp seems a little much without a good deal more $$$'s. This i my 300hp flatty built to Joe Abbin's specs.
3 5/16 X 4, ported/relieved, all ports matched.
Believe me, 300hp is quite enough for me in my 40 tudor.
Fourdy
Has anyone used this guys heads before? He is a local guy that makes them. They seem to be well thought out, 12% more volume of water, head bolt bosses are much stronger. Just wondering if anyone had any experience with them.
Ken
Ken, when I first heard of those the story was they were targeting the lakes racing crowd. Never have seen or heard of a set in use, there must be some out there though. About a year or so ago the tooling for those was up for sale. Seems I remember the original guys were in No. Cal. so apparently the guy near you bought the tooling?
Nitrowarrior, Only 300 H.P.? Back in the fiftys 200 H.P. was considered hot and the 8CM fourdy shows above is one sweet flathead! Here are some pages from the Newhouse Special Handbook circa 1952 (the 14th Edition!). Over the years I penciled in the H.P. data for a high reving OHC Pinto 2000 and the tiny 1275 cc MG Midget engine but you can see that anything over 120 H.P. was semi-hot on the street for the time, 300 H.P. on the street would make fourdy king of the hill until about 1953!
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Nice old stuff you have there Don.
Today's part and smart geometry make 300hp a Sunday stroll on gas, naturally aspirated.
I don't understand where the fear plays into building a strong flatty that lives.
THIS IS A INTERESTING BUILD ON A 4" STROKE MOTOR, 280 CU. IN. BLOWN. IF YOU CLICK ON DYNO REPORT
http://www.tr-designs.com/FlatheadMain.htm
I made my statement above, and so far, I'm not convinced
What I've seen and not made much if any comment on is that 400Hp is virtually a myth - and almost impossible on a "standard" Ford 239 plus whatever bore and stroke flathead without a very high output supercharger. I see people closing on 300 Hp on the site that Ken has shown - and with a nicely built engine. I really haven't seen any numbers anywhere near that mythical 400 number. Three main bearings........BANG.............massively shrouded exhaust, even with a splitter, an intake system that makes today's designers shudder, cylinder heads, even the pretty ones Ken pictured, that can't move air well, an oiling system that is inadequate, a cooling system that is horrible
The last flattie I built was 3 5/16"+.030 x 4" (~283cid) triple 97's, Offie heads and a Clay Smith track cam, port and polish, etc, etc, etc and I know it wasn't more then 225-250Hp, if that. It was replaced in the car with a 312" Y block Ford that was "225Hp" according to Ford lit that could run rings around it - before I did anything to it internally. Now, with that said, these are 'seat of the pants' numbers - except for the 0-60 times as well as quarter mile.
400Hp - please show me a streetable engines set of numbers. Has 400 been made - I'm sure, but who and when and how
Without trying to whiz in anybody's Wheaties, h.p. talk without dyno data to back it up is.......................well, just talk. We sometimes play around with "desk top dyno" numbers, but ever since I did one of those on a 440 Mopar I had in the '64 Savoy I've not been a believer.............it was great for brag, but overestimated in my opinion. And Levi's dynos are all guess or wishful thinking. Neat for conversation but after that............................well, on second thought, it might have value if you're trying for a Nobel Prize in Horse Power.:D
To answer somebody's question about Joe Abbin....he's a flathead expert out of Albuquerque who specializes in flathead engines. He has about 15 years in selling high performance parts and supercharger kits for the flathead. I have contacted him about my flathead and probably will install one of his Weiand blowers on my 52 Ford motor.
Deafeningly quiet from the 400Hp group:LOL:
I'm of the age that I recall Hot Rod Mag (1955 or 6) with a cover story extolling the fact that they were able to get 1Hp/CI out of a 265 CID Chebbie on "high test" pump gas and sounding like a miracle had happened.
I appreciate all of the replies. I wanted to build an engine different than the the typical SBC. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem realistic to get a lot of performance out of the flathead Ford. I've decided to focus my attention on building a Hemi.