Okay brother Patterson, your turn at bat!;)
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Okay brother Patterson, your turn at bat!;)
I copied this off a Rod and Custom article. :3dSMILE:
Ken
What you see here, however, isn't just a pair of reproduction heads atop a Ford block but instead a brand-new, 284ci, all-aluminum improved block, reproduction Ardun heads, and vintage 4-71 blower (the only old part on the whole deal) bolted to a new manifold from Ken Austin. Yeah, you should be impressed. And, how about 382 hp at 5,300 rpm, roughly four times that of a stock Flathead? We've seen the dyno sheet, which also reveals the 396.9 lb-ft of torque produced at 4,300 rpm.
This is a naturally aspirated one Popular Hot rodding did.
Yes, I'm going to beat this to death :3dSMILE::LOL:
Ken
To recap what's been done so far, our engine is based on a '48 Mercury block that has been given traditional relief: The intake and exhaust ports have been cleaned up, cylinders have been bored to 3 5/16 inches, and it's equipped with a 4-inch stroke Merc crank that results in a displacement of 276 ci. Internally, there are no real trick pieces; the rods are stock with most of the other parts coming from the Speedway Motors catalog, including the Isky Max I cam, valve springs, stainless 1.60 intake and exhaust valves, cast pistons, bearings, gaskets, water pumps, and a variety of bits and pieces. We used lightweight lifters from Reds Headers, a modified oil pump, and a full-flow filter from Motor City, along with Total Seal rings. The heads and intake manifold are Sharp, and we also tested an Offenhauser intake from Speedway Motors. Jere Jobe rebuilt the carburetors and converted the stock distributor to electronic., and we planned on testing on MSD.
Many of the decisions about what components to use in our engine were influenced by research done by Joe Abbin of Road Runner Engineering. His computer modeling indicated that the Sharp heads, a mild relief and the Max 1 cam would provide the best results and meet our goal of a strong street engine with broad, flat horsepower and torque curves. However, we have to confess we thought Joe was being optimistic when he projected 176hp and 250 lb.-ft. of torque. So, after Tom Cox completed all of the machining operations on the block and balanced everything that moved within a gnat's eyelash, we kept our mouth shut when John Beck at Pro Machine started to put it all together. The last thing we wanted to do was forecast big numbers, only to fall short. After all, 160 or so horsepower out of a Flathead without a lot of displacement or a laundry list of exotic parts is very respectable. Keep in mind that 170hp is very impressive, and 176hp is in our wildest dreams category.
You can drag this into the dirt and put wish in one and and $h!t in the other.
You're looking at ancient technology and limiting the project to a mere 276 cubes.
Achieving 1 HP per cube (even in a flattie) is simple. I deal with 341.7 cubes.
Put forth the effort to use your own money and common sense, using your resources for the right component, you'll see 400 at around 5300.
Ken, you PM'd me and I responded. You're jerking my chain and won't open your eyes. Too bad.
“……….Okay brother Patterson, your turn at bat!......”
Gee Uncle Bob I really don’t know what to say (but you know that has never stopped me before :3dSMILE: )
I hope this does not come across as snipping because it’s not intended to. I looked over Maxb49’s posts and all I can come up with is he wants to build a hot rod from scratch and doesn’t want to use a SB Chevy. Some of the engines he’s looked at are the 331 Caddy, flathead and now 426 based HEMI. That covers a LOT of potential territory. All of those engines and several others are good candidates depending on what exactly the car is going to be and what he expects to do with it.
I’d like a little something more to work with than a general HP figure. Size and weight of the car, INTENDED USE and transmission preference (to help figure where the torque needs to be at, gearing and useable RPM range) etc.
(and you thought I was asleep :LOL: )
...not out of any standard Ford car based flathead that I ever saw without wet sleeves and an impossible 3.56 bore and something like an unbelievable 4.375" stroke - not when you start with a 3.188 x 3.75 or 4 inches!!!!
Maybe if you start with a 336 cid Lincoln or F8 truck engine - it's possible since that one started with a 3.5" bore and a 4.375 stroke and a whopping 150 Hp or so out of a boat anchor weight engine still with a three bearing crankshaft having the harmonics of a floppy rubber band.
Ken - looks like you and I are the nay sayers on this one:LOL::LOL:
Well, seeing as how I've built and ran a total of one (1) flathead in my entire life I'm probably not anywhere's near an expert on them.... But I do know that mine had Edelbrock heads, two deuces, and a mag----it put a whopping 103hp to the wheels.....
IMO, 400 horse flat heads that live more then 1 pull on the dyno are probably just as common as 9 second street machines...everybody has one!!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Let's try 4.5 inches of stroke. No POS factory rods, work the geometry using today's components to complement the combo.
Nay say all you want. Build one out of your pocket and see how affordable it is to create dependebility with great HP.
Got a dyno sheet and some pics of this setup going together??????? Curious to see where the extra main bearings were added........
My customers pay for their dyno sheets why should I hand out their info for free on here? How come every body thinks that running old blocks that have nothing to ofeer in the HP range is where the limitations are?
Extra mains? work the mass geometry out. 400 HP is a small amount to squeeze.
The attitude is not achieving 700 HP naturally aspirated.
If Ken was serious when he PM'd me about the build, he could drag the options out here in the open.
It'd be great ammo for the cause.
Well, Whatever...... But when I get a good dyno sheet i can't get home fast enough to post it up!!!!!!
Ok, so what's the shop that is putting them together, and what are they basing the build on?????
Not accusing anyone of telling stories, I just want to see it!!!!!!!!!!! We're talking Hot Rods, not Rocket Science---doubt any of it is classified, is it???????
"THEY" is me. I build them.
Like my customers, you pay for the dyno sheet.
Go and do the "Proper" research and find that
First; We did put a man on the moon.
Second; What you're asking me to do is more than possible without hurting the bottom end and keep it fed with oil and fuel.
Third; You're also asking me to divuldge free information with customer's builds that they paid good money for.
How stupid does a business man have to be to stand on his soap box and thump his chest, handing out the livelyhood he works on?
Ever wonder why those magazines everybody believes in, only produces moderate numbers?
Or, everything that went on during the build was not divuldged?
If "Anybody" could create the seemingly inpossible builds, it would lose it's luster and these little ego beat downs would be meaningless.
Horsepower building and the sport/hobby of rodding/racing would have died a long time ago.
Well, I guess if it's all classified and I don't have a need to know...... anyway, it's your story, tell it however you want..........
My goal to help guide the builder of a flattie died when Ken T and Bob P started jerking the chain.
You've joined the band wagon I see.
Quite doubting, get off of your dead butt and on your lazy feet and build one. Or do the "PROPER" research.
You're right, it's not rocket science.
Simply, the stuff you should've learned had you been paying attention when the time spent mattered.
Classified? Not everything you don't understand is classified or a big mystery.
:LOL::LOL::LOL:
I've already had my flathead----don't see any reason to ever have another one...
If your shop can build them with 600 horse and they get 35 mpg in a 4000 pound car, that's fine with me.....
I just like to see pictures of things, then they make a whole lot more sense to me then "research" and theories.....
Guess I'll just bow out of this one, but you just keep building them 400 horse flatties with whatever it is you use in wherever this shop of yours is at and sell them to those customers who will never tell the rest of us about them.....!!!!!!!!
Dave, Not 600.
The point was 400 and the level dropped to 300 for the nay sayers.
Not me.
You're building a half breed 'Maro that raise the eye brows of builders and your buddies.
You bet it can be done the way you're doing it.
Can everybody understand it or why? NOPE!
There's the most simple things in life because of the technology we are afforded in today's world.
Most of that tech is now affordable to us because we're not the only ones doig it so it's readily available at an affordable price.
I have only a couple of middle men to deal with. It makes things better for me to pass on to the customer.
Yup, and the pictures and details are available for all to see.....I guess I just like to see what people are talking about.....after all, a picture is worth a thousand words....
PS--all my builds are a bit off the wall and open to the scrutiny of anyone who cares.....I don't have to defend anything I build---it's just being built for me anyway---not some prissy customer who wants the details to remain all hush hush.....
Now, that is funny!
Customers of mine have a unique build and need their "Ace in the hole".
Let me just flush away the integrity they have intrusted in me and sit around wondering what I'm going to do next.
Including the race cars and street rodders and those who want the "edge" just for the mere bragging rights of their own.
You could've easily PM'd me for a basic set up to see better for your understanding.
Hhhmmm....but you didn't.
If nothing else comes of this, there's nothing anybody can't do if they set their mind to it and dig for the learning it takes to accomplish.
Yes, I've wanted to build a hot rod for quite some time. I've taken the time to learn the basics of engines, transmissions, etc. before I jumped into any project. I'm sure you understand that I want to carefully think and plan out my car because this is a large financial commitment. I don't mind if it takes a couple years to build, I want to do it right. I want to build a powerful car that can be drag raced. I would like the car to perform at least in the high 11 to low 12 second range, be distinctive, perform in the high RPMs.
Thanks.
With that criteria, one of the most overlooked engines around with a ton of potential is the 340 Mopar's..... Not a lot of them being used in Hot Rods, but when they're put together right with the right parts, they will show some very respectable performance numbers!!!!!!!
I've also spent some time studying a couple of others, the Caddy Northstar's and the Ford V-10's..........
Max that is still a bit vague, so I’ll throw out a few things here that might give you some food for thought. From some of the questions you’ve asked, it seems one of you requirements is that when you open the hood (if you build a car that has one) is you want the WOW factor of having an engine a bit different than anyone else’s. You’re pretty much looking into some of the 50’s -60s nostalgia type stuff that is currently less than common.
In the majority of cases most people start with the car they want and from there decide on the drive train that will allow the vehicle to meet whatever their goals are. In this case I’m under the impression you’re looking to determine the motor first and then are going to decide what body it will end up in. I’m not saying this is the wrong way to go about it, I’ve done the same thing from time to time.
The size/weight of car itself will be the determining factor as to how much motor you will need for your goal of 11-12 second times. For instance a properly prepared flathead in a T Bucket could probably do it but the same engine in a full sized sedan would have a much harder time.
Speaking in generalities the smaller the engine the harder it’s going work to achieve the same speeds/times. My own preference generally goes the bigger displacement engines that require less exotic speed equipment to make the same or better power than a smaller displacement engine.
The Hemi you’re currently considering is definitely a good choice in the WOW factor and power department but over the last few years have become a lot more common place than they have been previously. If you have deep enough pockets to build one of these it’s definitely a safe choice to meeting you’re goals.
I’ll throw out a few more choices that might also fit the bill for you.
While personally I would not necessarily build a 331 Cadillac, I would not be afraid to do a later 365 CI Caddy. While the build would be a bit pricey and probably require some one off pieces (pistons and cam and headers come to mind). They were available with both dual quad and tri-power intakes and would make a great conversation piece and should produce decent power. One down side that comes to mind would possibly be adapting the engine to a more modern transmission.
Buick Nail heads especially in the 401 and 425 versions made very good power right out of the box and vintage speed equipment also occasionally shows up for these.
Ford FE are also good engines at a minimum I personally would not build anything smaller than a 390 and would actually prefer a 428 although I would not throw a 406 or 427 if you’re lucky enough to find one.
Chevrolet W motor (348/409) personally I would go for the 409 in large part due to the displacement and better heads. Unfortunately if your heart is set on a factory Tri Power they only were available on the 348s and port size difference does not allow them to be used with 409 heads.
IMO one of the most overlooked engines are the Chrysler Poly engines. If memory serves me correctly 57 and 58 saw the largest displacement Chrysler Poly (Spitfire) engines at 354 cubic inches. This engine was actually based on the 354 Hemi and the majority of short block parts interchange. Although the heads did not flow quite as well as the HEMI heads, they still did VERY well. Although I’m not positive I believe any of the 354/392 intake and exhaust manifolds will fit with little or no modification. One engine build I have always wanted to try is a set of 354 Spitfire heads on a 392 block. There is just something those old scalloped valve covers with raised SPITFRE lettering that always appealed to me.
57-58 olds 371 j2 could be concidered. 300hp stock unless you find the hi output 312 hp with the solid cam and adjustable rockers. opening the hood to an early olds rocket would give me a WOW factor!
bob
was there a price limt ? i did nail head last year very $$ and some parts can be pick up thru T/A for it on the older engine s some bearings sizes are hard to get less you want off brands .cams .pistons. rods. cranks. all can be made for any engine but $$$ as for the caddy i work on a 55 engine $$ and price out a build on a 63 390 about the same at $3800+ with parts and machine work as a nail head stock build... so the older and more off the path the more money it would be .this is Ez for me it would be a bbc or a sbc or in line 6 if you want a older look they all fit the bill for small T a chevy 4.3 v6 would work as well for 1/2 the $3700 you can build a very nice small block with would make great power. and a $3700 price tag mild big block that would make much TQ and hp .that would beat any thing listed so far and make more HP for the money and take hard use very well
I didn't see any budget figures given Pat. I kind of figured if he's looking into a second generation HEMI that cost is not as big of a factor as the eye candy considerations. It's one of the reason I threw out some of the engine suggestions I did. They definately are not in the price range of doing a SBC or even mild BBC. :LOL:
I STILL don't have any idea on how 341CI are made from a 239C engine 'cause a 4.5 stroke and really the max safe bore of 3.375 without wet sleeve is still only 322. Piston speed of 3735 (@5000rpm) WILL kill that crank.
Sorry - I cannot believe that Nitrowarrior can't put some sort of graph on line to defend his outlandish statements of CID and Hp - so until then, it's a figment of his imagination.
If there are REAL supporting docs, then I'll be the first to apologize:D
Thanks Pat - and yes, I am aware that a French block will go to 3.4375 or a bit more, but the stroke- ???? - I still would like the person that claims 400Hp out of a flathead to show me (us ?) how, at least in generalities. He has made some statements, but after numerous requests from several of us who have "lived" flatties in the past, wont support his claims. I don't want his business nor do I want his trade secrets - only enough to make me start to believe that it's possible. So far he has stood behind that fits all statement that "his customers pay for that information".
For that kind of money, you could use a gas turbine from a helicopter and really wow the troops.
I guess I should be more specific. I don't get the chance to write a very long post because of everything going on around the house. I've put away money for the past several years to build the best engine I could that would outlast anything. My desired purpose is to have a great, fast car that will perform well on the track and for my own pleasure not really to impress the guys at car shows. Do you think $14k is too much to build a powerful engine? I really don't want to waste money, but from what I gathered building a big engine costs a lot of money.
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to offer help and advice! :)
Well you could buy a french flathead block and look for some Ardun heads but I doubt that that could be done for even $14,0000. For unusual nostalgia I think the Ardun setup is the top of the line but that is more expensive, although I would be glad to get 250 HP and add a main bearing girdle and extra large aftermarket main caps and take what I got with 3 5/16" x 4 and an Isky cam. Save some money for a good transmission since I don't think a stock Ford three speed would last long behind that engine.
(http://www.oogabooga.ca/oogaboogapag40.htm) A hemi would be in range but this goal is apparently for a powerful but unusual engine. I would look for an early Cadillac engine ('53 or later) and end up with what would be an expensive version of what could be done for far less with a 383 SBC crate engine but the Caddy would be unusual. In my memories of the mid '50s no one I new ever saw an Ardun setup outside of pictures in Hot Rod Magazine but on the street a '53 Caddy engine with chrome valve covers was the creme de le creme even after SBC 327s were available just because of the Cadillac name and if you added Caddy hubcaps what more could you want?
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Well now..........hasn't this thread gotten "interesting"??:LOL::LOL: Here is my take on this whole high hp flathead thing. If a person builds one it would be so that they have something different and possibly traditional . Or maybe they want to run a particular class at the races. Any other reason escapes me because with the amount of money they will spend trying to make it live and put out some good hp numbers they would be way ahead building almost any other V8 OHV engine on the market.
I think it is indisputable that if you gave me $ 7000 to build lets say a Chevy BB and gave someone else $ 7000 to build a flathead, the BBC would leave the flathead in the dust and probably live a lot longer. Like the others I am curious why Nitro won't post any dyno sheets to back up his claims. It isn't like he would be disclosing some National Secret or violating his customers trust in him. I don't say that to infer he is fibbing, just can't understand the reluctance to post them.
Who would have thought an engine that died over 50 years ago would spark such a lively discussion in 2009? :D:D
Don
I stand by my ideal of an early OHV Cadillac just because the idea of a "Fordalac" still seems neat to me, BUT (!) judging by the questions so far I think a crate engine should be considered. Simply put, for the money the most power would be from a crate BBC engine but he doesn't want a Chevy. I can only say that there is an offer for a brand new 5.7 L Mopar Hemi engine in my Speedway catalog for a mere $2999.95 which would be a novel and modern form of a hemi although it is injected and will need a modern interface or a simple carb. setup. Check out the inside of the back cover of Speedway catalog #280. For that kind of money I personally would take a long look at the Edelbrock Performer RPM 9.5:1 410 HP SBC for a mere $6689.95 from Yogi's.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
For what it is worth I note on page 30 of the Dec. 2009 Street Rodder Magazine there is an advertisement for a 6.1 L hemi built by Indy Cylinder Head listed as available for $6995 (317) 862-3724. It is rated at 400 HP and 375 ft. lb. torque.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder