Ok, I know this might sound odd, but I have an old beater 70 chevelle, and I 'm wanting to know if there are any diesel motors that I could mount in it without major modification to the block or frame, drivetrain etc.........Thanks....
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Ok, I know this might sound odd, but I have an old beater 70 chevelle, and I 'm wanting to know if there are any diesel motors that I could mount in it without major modification to the block or frame, drivetrain etc.........Thanks....
Why???
I don't know what to say. It does though remind me of a bizarre event that happened recently. My girlfriend got in a serious "tree hugging" mode one day and suggested that I pull out the absolutely perfect condition fresh 12.5:1 comp 383 stroker chevy out of the 69 firebird and put some SMALL diesel in it and redesign it(read...replace the rest of the driveline for way different gearing needs) to run efficiently on "Biodiesel". If that half an hour lasted any longer...I would have been real concerned for her sanity!!!!
I'm not mocking you...seriously! But I am curious as to why you are interested in the diesel concept. I'm convinced that you can fit just about anything into anything else when it comes to cars. In fact, the only 2 things that seemed totally nuts about my girlfriends "seizure" was that 1- she wanted me to take a nice muscle car a put a "very small powered diesel" in it that would put it in the performance category of a Yugo and the fact that this is a FINISHED great condition car with a FRESH driveline that runs great.
If you can get past the old fashioned traditional "diesels have no place in a muscle car thing" the engines have come a long way in design. Banks has a diesel powered truck running over 220 mph...yikes! I think it would be VERY interesting to see a modern truck diesel powerplant(preferably hopped up a bit with some of the abundant aftermarket products out there) put into a big Chevelle body that has an engine compartment big enough to swallow one of those suckers. It shouldn't be that much harder that retrofitting a computerized late model gas v-8 into an older car, done all the time. But it would be a significant undertaking depending on what your car already has in it and your wallet's size.
First off, what are your intentions here? A quick low budget used motor swap in a tired car....A ground up car restoration with a sizable budget. It sounds like closer to the former from your post.
Is it posible..oh yeah. Is it worth it or cost effective in your time or money? depends on lots of things...mostly you.
Is it the anywhere near the simplest and most cost effective
option. Not a chance! BUT it could be cool if done right. 25mpg torquer!!
Regardless...it's a sizable job that would require custom mounts, a diesel motor and most likely it's matching tranny from the same donor car/truck if used, lots of wiring, sensor pieces, exhaust, computer management issues, fuel tank modifications, on and on. My head is spinning.
Sounds like your a free thinker...A good thing!
So what are your thoughts?
George
Why???Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Severson
Why???
If you're serious I'd look for a early to late 90's GM 6.2L or 6.5L diesel from a light duty pick-up. Physically the engine is between a standard small and big block Chevy, stock mounts should work as well since it was the upgrade engine over the basic gas motors.
The 6.2s were normally aspirated, the 6.5s are most commonly found to be the turbocharged variety. These are high compression diesels, 21:1, with boost limited to around 6lbs or so. The motor is still in production, it's what you get in a real Hummer.
The 6.2s were around 150bhp and the 6.5Ts were right at 200BHP stock. In marine trim these were bumped to 300-350BHP with somewhere near 650ft/lbs of torque. Different pistons brought the compression down to 16:1, then boost was raised to 20lbs.
I'd find a rotted out pick-up and transplant the entire drivetrain. Take the hydro-boost pump for the power brakes (assuming the Chevelle has PB).
Stay away from the mid 80's GM 5.7L diesels as these were a POS.
Regards, Mark
I want to know too, why?!!!!??!!!?Quote:
Originally posted by TravisB
Why???
Actually, the 350N motors werent bad motors once they worked the bugs out of them. The problems were associated with the cranks and camshafts on the earlier motors. Get an 82-later and youll find good cranks and roller cams. ;) However, there are also 4.3L incarnation of these motors that are found across the GM line. Not too familiar with them, but their good for somewhere around 35mpg highway. As for Hp from a diesel, a lot of rules apply from gas motors. larger valves, free flowing exhaust, ported intake, these all work. Finally, beware of head gaskets and ALWAYS replace the head bolts if you blow a gasket. better yet, put in head studs.Quote:
Originally posted by MAW
Stay away from the mid 80's GM 5.7L diesels as these were a POS.
Duramax. You can get them cheap with the allison 5 speed still attached. They have an aluminum block and heads to keep the weight down. A chipped engine will make 300 whp and over 700 lbft of torque. In a car as light as a Chevelle, you may be better off adapting a turbo 400 or powerglide to fit in place of the allison.
Quote:
Originally posted by 76GMC1500
Duramax. You can get them cheap with the allison 5 speed still attached. They have an aluminum block and heads to keep the weight down. A chipped engine will make 300 whp and over 700 lbft of torque. In a car as light as a Chevelle, you may be better off adapting a turbo 400 or powerglide to fit in place of the allison.
These are all good ideas I guess, but WHY???? It would need all 700lbft to get it to move it would be so nose heavy! What would you do for front suspension?? And it would drive like a dump truck:whacked: :whacked: :whacked: :whacked: :whacked:
A Duramax weighs about the same as a 426 hemi at 836 lbs, it might even weigh less than stock hemi with iron heads.
Ok so it is lighter than i thought I stand corrected. Hemi cars handled like dump trucks too, why waste a chevelle.Quote:
Originally posted by 76GMC1500
A Duramax weighs about the same as a 426 hemi at 836 lbs, it might even weigh less than stock hemi with iron heads.
No one has answered my original question!
Why!!!!!!
Ok, I'll answer the question. Diesels get better mileage, produce more torque and are generally more durable. Plus, when was the last time you saw a 70 chevelle diesel?
I think it would be great. Never heard of it being done before. Technically...it could be a very strong performer if done well. I've seen 5000+lb full sized trucks running 12's in the 1/4 with over the counter mods to their diesels. Imagine the potential in a 3800lb muscle car. I'm not about to tear apart my 69, but I'd love to see someone else do it!!
Those hemi cars handled like dump trucks because they didn't have shock absobers on the front suspension. I think that had more of an effect on handling than the weight of the engine.
Hemi cars didn't have shocks??? That's a new one on me.
I think a diesel is a chevelle would be a cool idea. THe 350 diesel with an aftermarket turbo would be the least painless to install. It would use a standard BOP trans and 350 olds motor mounts (can be had from a cutlass).
Since when did a shock help a car go through a corner! Just because it has never been done doesn't mean it is a good idea! Diesels are good for pulling and volkswagons if they had performance potential in a car it would be a common practice!
I personaly believe I would sell the 70 chevelle to someone who would keep the heritiage,and then go on the search for the late 70's or mid 80's cutlass that came factory with a diesel engine in it for the troubles and hassle your probably going to incounter. but if you must I would do the same as you've been told find you a good 6.2 chevy diesel and give it your best shot.If I just wanted differant I would just put a ford motor in it, so when you pop the hood around your chevy buddies they'll get a laugh.just kidding, differant folks differant strokes. good luck with your vision. wjr
Go to Europe, you'll find that around 30% of the cars on the road are diesel, some are wicked fast.Quote:
Diesels are good for pulling and volkswagons if they had performance potential in a car it would be a common practice!
A Chevy 6.5LTD came standard with a TH700R4. If built to the marine standard with 350bhp this combination should offer slightly better performance, including handling, than a 396ci/TH400 in the (hopefully) hypothetical 70 Chevelle. It would offer greater than 25MPG at the same time.
Hmmmm, the perfect Power Tour vehicle? Do the complete run on one tank of fuel?
Cheers, Mark
No thanks! no need for me to go to europe!!:HMMM: The whole power tour! That would be a big tank maybe you could rob some Semi fuel tanks to mount in the trunk, then some 5in stacks to go along with the whole truck theme!Quote:
Originally posted by MAW
Go to Europe, you'll find that around 30% of the cars on the road are diesel, some are wicked fast.
A Chevy 6.5LTD came standard with a TH700R4. If built to the marine standard with 350bhp this combination should offer slightly better performance, including handling, than a 396ci/TH400 in the (hopefully) hypothetical 70 Chevelle. It would offer greater than 25MPG at the same time.
Hmmmm, the perfect Power Tour vehicle? Do the complete run on one tank of fuel?
Cheers, Mark
You guys can try to explain to me how good diesels are all you want. I work on them daily and I have a high regard for them. Yes the europeans use more diesels, but that's mostly because it's far more cost effecient, and besides, they don't drive the amount tha we drive here.
Travis, I'm with you on this. I still want to know why? First off, they're heavier, bulkier. You're gonna have to fab mounts. They're usually more expensive to work on, definitly more expensive to rebuild. You're gonig to have to fab new wiring and depending on which one you get this could be extensive. Computers for newer ones. On the upside a good early model Cummins could get you better mileage and torque with minimal upgrades, at least electrically. You could build a good small block and still have money left over for tranny and all the little extras you might need to drop her in for the price of just the engine work on a diesel unit, much less the fab work to put it in.
That's just my opinion though, the station, management, and employess may not agree with my position.
P.S. Please tell me why? I need to know.
Me too, I've never seen a production car without some kind of shock.Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Severson
Hemi cars didn't have shocks??? That's a new one on me.
Take my work for it. Those engines were absolute junk. I worked at a Caddy dealer in the mid '80's, and if the car wasn't maintained, we wouldn't work on them. The engines were just useless and killed off diesel sales for 10-15 years.Quote:
Originally posted by drg84
Actually, the 350N motors werent bad motors once they worked the bugs out of them. The problems were associated with the cranks and camshafts on the earlier motors. Get an 82-later and youll find good cranks and roller cams. ;) However, there are also 4.3L incarnation of these motors that are found across the GM line. Not too familiar with them, but their good for somewhere around 35mpg highway. As for Hp from a diesel, a lot of rules apply from gas motors. larger valves, free flowing exhaust, ported intake, these all work. Finally, beware of head gaskets and ALWAYS replace the head bolts if you blow a gasket. better yet, put in head studs.
WHY????
seems to be the question with a lot of criticism.
Well when the first fuel injection came out im sure there was a lot of people to ask the same question, when people chose to swap LS1s and so on into chevelles and camaros etc., they did it to be different and not have the same carb theme as well as gas mileage, tuning capabilities etc. I think if thats what floats somebodys boat the throw them an ore and maybe you will be suprised when a "diesel chevelle" makes the cover of your favorite magazine. DIfferent people have different taste. I say go for it if it interest you.
go head diesel cost alot more then regular gas. you have to work on them all the time they burn dirty STINK and sound like crap. and gee while you are at it you might wanna add a straight axel and a 5th wheel jeesh :rolleyes: if the people coming into club hotrod are asking these kinds of questions (no offense) but your people are scary. i am afraid for the futrure of hot rodding if these are the kinds of questions being asked....scooter
i would get a cummins 5.9 24valve it would be costly but it would be an absolute hoss cummins is the way to go
http://www.veggiecar.com/
Need I say more?????
Just because a diesel is most commonly found in a truck in the US DOES NOT mean it isn't a good idea in a car. A 5.7l or 6.2 diesel doesn't way too much more than a 454.. If it was me, I'd do it and prove all you nay-sayers wrong. A diesel doesn't need to turn a lot of rpms to make power. Then you turbo the beast and you've got horsepower at low rpms. With the right gears you can get 25mpg at 100+mph in a car. THink about this, the VW golf, rabbit, truck, beetle, passat, and jetta are/were all available with a diesel. They also get 50+mpg day in and day out. I would go that route if I could afford a new car. Diesel prices are higher yes, but when I'm filling up HALF AS MUCH the cost difference is negligible. My advice to some of you is grow up, and think OUTSIDE the box. Just because society says something is wrong doesn't mean it is.... Stop listening to other people and do what YOU want. If someone else does'nt like it too bad. It's a free country (at least the us is), and we can do as we please. If it makes someone mad, oh well...
Do it and then go eat some camaros for lunch.
oh yeah and those vw's are such speed demons:rolleyes: :LOL:
pfolgle, I hope you didn't mis-understand what I was saying. I agree with everything that you say. Deisels are not a bad power plant and they do produce mad amounts of torque. I've had experience with some of the V dub diesels nad have no complaints about them. They were fine cars. As a matter of fact, if you would like to use a diesel, feel free. I never said it was a bad idea, I am just interested to find out from this fella why he wants to do it. Not why you would do it. I just think from a realistic stand point after all the fab work of tryin' to install a diesel into a '70 Chevelle you could've easily built a 350 that would eat it from light to light or 1/4 mile. Now the diesel would out pull it. It would be a great tow vehicle. But to get the usable power that you're takin' about, you'd be spendin' some REAL money. Yes, I've seen tha articles about some of the guys on the west coast buildin' 12 sec full size, 4 door, 4X4 trucks, but these guys are spendin' big coin. You could spend half the money on a 454 and get the same performance at the same altitude.
From a being different stand point I could see doin' it. I could see doin' it if you found a good B model cummins 6 cyl (Dodge truck) for fairy cheap and it was sittin' there and you were bored and wanted to practice your fabbing skills, I guess. I don't see it as a bad idea. I just don't see it as an inexpensive alternative. I'm not tryin' to be a "nay sayer". I'm just interested in why this gentleman woiuld like to do this. It would make a truthful answer to his question much easier to make
skolaiks, if you're still out there, this is an interesting subject to discuss. I would like to hear more from you on what you're thinkin'.
I think it is a great idea. With enough welding rods, bottles of oxy/acetylene and money, you can make anything fit. Deep pockets would be the most important factor in something like that I would think. As to the answer to the question "Why?", I guess my question would be, "Why Not?" Sounds like fun.
Good luck, keep us posted if you decide to do it, I for one would love to see some pics of that build.
Quote:
Originally posted by pfogle
http://www.veggiecar.com/
Need I say more?????
Just because a diesel is most commonly found in a truck in the US DOES NOT mean it isn't a good idea in a car. A 5.7l or 6.2 diesel doesn't way too much more than a 454.. If it was me, I'd do it and prove all you nay-sayers wrong. A diesel doesn't need to turn a lot of rpms to make power. Then you turbo the beast and you've got horsepower at low rpms. With the right gears you can get 25mpg at 100+mph in a car. THink about this, the VW golf, rabbit, truck, beetle, passat, and jetta are/were all available with a diesel. They also get 50+mpg day in and day out. I would go that route if I could afford a new car. Diesel prices are higher yes, but when I'm filling up HALF AS MUCH the cost difference is negligible. My advice to some of you is grow up, and think OUTSIDE the box. Just because society says something is wrong doesn't mean it is.... Stop listening to other people and do what YOU want. If someone else does'nt like it too bad. It's a free country (at least the us is), and we can do as we please. If it makes someone mad, oh well...
Do it and then go eat some camaros for lunch.
With the right gears you can get 25mpg in about anything! Why not take the turbo off the deisel put it on a mild fuel injected 350 with a 6spd you would have plenty of power, good driveability, and at least it would still be cool!!!!
Okay, in 1970 the olds cutlass was the same car as the chevelle. If he could find a 69 to 72 or so cutlass with a 350 gas motor in it, he'd have the motor mounts. The electrical system isn't that much different than a gas motor. You just need to hook the coil wire to a fuel pump with a relay. Diesel are far more reliable than gas motors, and if he uses a 5.7l diesel (properly built) he can use any BOP transmisison he wants (again has to properly built to handle the power). Then add a turbo and few other small improvements to the exhaust and intake and he's got a car that will perform just as well as a built 350. It's all a matter of taste. If it were me I'd use the diesel just because it can get better fuel economy.
real reliable in the winter time to :LOL: :rolleyes:
In order to use a 350N, he would have to immediatly put in a crank, camshaft and head gaskets to avoid later problems. The just run the oil filter from hell and change it regularly. Swiftster, I was looking into a 350N and realise there were problems with them. In their case there was a porus crank problem with the 79s and 80s, and camshafts up till they went roller. Unfortunatly, this was too late in the game and yes, it did kill of diesel sales. But any motor has problems the first time out. Good example, the 8-6-4 caddy motors. Now if someone could make THESE work, that would be impressive:whacked:
As odd as the diesel muscle car subject may be, I have found this thread to be of the more interesting that I have seen. Unfortunately, we haven't heard anything from the originator of this issue. SKOLAIKS...where are you? I hope you haven't been put off by all the comments. I'm into the "old school" thing myself personally, but I do appreciate "outside the box" ideas and those daring enough to go through with them. Funny, it wasn't too long ago when someone pondering the thought of putting in a "modern fuel injected" v-8 engine into a classic anything would be considered nothing short of a hanging offense. Overdrive trannies...similar response back then! Now they are commonplace, and then some. I'll assume that SKOLAIKS has lost interest since his first post...a shame. But someone will do it. Someone may well have already done it...wouldn't be suprised. If you go by the numbers, it can work. If done well, it will not be a "cheap" swap. But in comparison to high end late model computerized gas v-8s, computerized overdrive tranny swaps, it can't be that far off in $. I think this is more of a matter of taste...and tradition. The only part of the diesel thing that "wierds me out" is hearing a 70 chevelle rumbling at idle with the very obvious diesel engine and exhaust noise. The motors are getting quieter all the time, but can the exhaust pitch be altered to the point of not being too obvious that it is a big diesel? I could see an old El Camino being a good car for a swap. It already has the pseudo truck think going for it. It could make real nice tow rig as well. Anyone crazy enough to give it a go?
George
Why???
Why not. It's his car he can do what he wants with it.
I know they made el caminos with stock diesels. They're rare but I have seen one. So it could be done.
Just because it has been done does not mean it was a good idea! JMO:LOL:
I have a 51' dodge flat bed and I am putting a 12 valve cummins in it. I was looking for info on my swap when I ran across this thread. I think that its a great idea and why not? Everyone puts a chevy in everything, why not put in a cummins? I personaly think the early chevy diesels are junk, but why not. Isn't that was "Custom" means?
So where is SKOLAIKS? We want to hear from you. THESATCHMO good luck with the cummins project. Wouldn't it be interesting if throwing souped up diesels in vintage muscle cars becomes an accepted concept. I personally would crack up in hysterics if I saw a 70 chevelle running 10s or 11s with a well worked over modern turbo diesel with the exhaust smelling like french fry grease from the home brewed BIODIESEL it was running on. Imagine getting your ass kicked by something running on recycled cooking oil! It sure wouldn't do much for my ego. Any don't think that it can't be done. I personally saw a 5000lb truck do mid 12s...on street tires! He put plenty some $ into it, but it weighs 5000lbs!!!! I'll stick with big cube gas motors myself, but the potential of diesels are hard to deny!
George
Sorry I've taken so long to post....Been very busy....I'm thankful for y'all's interest, and here goes the big answer: Yes, I am interested in running biodiesel in it....I mean I can make it in my garage, and it burns cleaner than petrol diesel and actually lubes the engine better, from what I've read......And it's cheap (I can probably make it for under a dollar a gallon at least).....Now, before anyone forms a lynch mob, I'm definitely not looking to make it without power.....I'm not a speed freak, but I'd like it to have at least enough worthy of a muscle car....Now, I've thought about selling it so someone could restore it more conventionally, but it already doesn't have the original motor (it's one I rebuilt from a '74 pick up, 350 4blt .30 over, good motor) and the body panels all have at least one rust hole (gotta love the gulf coast), so I'm gonna have to do some extensive patching and replacement, and the frame needs some straightening, so I figured it wouldn't be worth trying to restore it to original(ish) specs........Now, I couldn't justify having a car that I only drive on weekends, and I drive at least 70 miles a day so I thought trying to convert it and run it on clean renewable fuel while still being able to kick some butt when it needs to would be the best option.....I mean if any of y'all have ever seen the H-town skyline when the polution is up, you might think similarly....I plan on doing this conversion from the ground up, and am willing to spend the money to do it right.....I'd rather put money into a car that I know every square inch of and that I can make cheap fuel for in my garage than buy a new or used one.....You can't get much cooler that a 70 Chevelle in my book.........So there it is, a little bit from column A a little from B.......Throw stones if you wish, but I'm gonna do it, and I'll keep anyone who's interested posted, and will be back with plenty of questions I'm sure........Thanks, skolaiks...............................