Thread: And more questions: Front suspension & clearance

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

Faith, in my opinion the first thing you should do is remove the Panhard bar and sling it as far as you can. It is the most awful mechanical abortion that was ever bolted to a car. This Panhard guy should have been suspended in mid-air with a strong cord around his privates until he came up with an acceptable design to limit lateral movement of the axle. That's as nice as I can be about that.

Mr. Techinspector, what's your problem? All this wrath, but no technical logic or explanation for your opinion! I'd like to know why you're so opposed to a Panhard bar! This kind of language doesn't belong here . . . and you're talking to a gal, too!

What is your preference . . . let the shackles swing? Dead perch? Watts linkage? Vertical slot with a roller? IFS?

You're entitled to your opinion, but why should anyone care about what you have to say?

[QUOTE=Hot Rod Roy]Mr. Techinspector, what's your problem? All this wrath, but no technical logic or explanation for your opinion! I'd like to know why you're so opposed to a Panhard bar! This kind of language doesn't belong here . . . and you're talking to a gal, too!

What is your preference . . . let the shackles swing? Dead perch? Watts linkage? Vertical slot with a roller? IFS?

You're entitled to your opinion, but why should anyone care about what you have to say?


Hot Rod Roy: I am not going to speak for Richard (Techinspector 1) He is certainly more than capable than doing that on his own. But I have to ask you your own question......."what's your problem?" For someone to come on here with only 9 posts, even if you did start them in April, and attack one of the nicest, most knowlegable members we have, with no provocation,that is out of line. I reread Richards post 3 times to find what set you off, and can't find one thing he said wrong. He was just giving his opinion, and his language did not contain one swear word. If you take offense at the word "privates" it is you with the problem, not he. I am always the first person to mention to someone on here that certain language is not acceptable, and Richard's was not offensive.

I suggest you learn to not come into something new with guns blasting in the future until you get the lay of the land. I also think you owe Richard an apology. He has always gone out of his way to help everyone possible, and has proven he knows his stuff from more than a bench racing perspective. He is also a very good friend to many of us on this forum, and I won't see him attacked in this manner without giving my two-cents. If you disagree with someone, there is a right and wrong way to do it. You chose the latter.

Oh, and I also agree with him on Panhard's. I have never used one, and find that if you set up your front suspension properly you don't need one. And, they are butt=ugly. Hope the word butt is ok?


Don

I don't like the look of a Panhard bar on an open-wheeled car either. A "dead perch" would do the same thing and look much better.
With conventional steering, it wouldn't matter which side the dead perch went on, but with cross steering it would probably be better on the driver's side.

I like low cars, and have driven hammered deuces a long, long way. You can go low, and still keep the ride.

Your shock angle is greater due to the axle you are running. It looks like a '32-36 axle, that has been dropped(quite nicely also). This axle has a wider perch centerline than any of the aftermarket axles, like the black one you have pictured. Making the shock more verticle will actually increase the damping(stiffer), so that is really not your issue at all.

I would flip those two little shims that are under the spring on to the top of the spring. That looks like about 1/2" there. Going to a standard spring eye seems pretty extreme - that is a 2" or so change. Those steering arms are from speedway. I would get a pair of forged arms from Chassis Engineering. They should have a little more drop in them than the ones on your car. If not they can be heated a bent down slightly.

I also can't see if your frame rails are notched over the front spring or not. In most cases, the spring will bottom on the frame rail, long before the center of the axle can hit the bottom of the u-bolt.

Originally Posted by SirSpeedy

I like low cars, and have driven hammered deuces a long, long way. You can go low, and still keep the ride.

Your shock angle is greater due to the axle you are running. It looks like a '32-36 axle, that has been dropped(quite nicely also). This axle has a wider perch centerline than any of the aftermarket axles, like the black one you have pictured. Making the shock more verticle will actually increase the damping(stiffer), so that is really not your issue at all.

how will a more vertical shock angle make the ride stiffer? I am unable to figure the logic in it, please explain... I like all your other suggestions, it seems there are common denominator to many of the posts here, so I have mapped a route i will take (see my next post)

After careful consideration, brain storming with you guys and 2 hot rod shops, I think I will go about my suspension the following way. if anyone see some flaws in my reasoning, please let me know before I get knee deep in thick doodoo

1- My front leaf spring are tired and flat. I believe they may be original 32s. they are riding metal to metal. Lots of noise and stiffness. I will replace them with P&J multi leaf with rubbers to improve both: 1- arch (hence gain a little height that way), 2- comfort 3- SILENCE I will save the old leaf spring, just in case I regret their departure.

2- While changing the front leaf I will move the shims to the top, thereby gaining a bit more height still.

3- I will see how all this adds up and how the roadster now rides. I will repaint my tie rod so I can see new scrapping marks, if any appear (aka: new incidents of pulley scrapping on the tie rod).

4- Assuming I don't, I will then look at my current front shock angle, amount of travel and performance. if either of these 3 are still not right, then:

5- I will get shorter lower shock mounts and if needed the 7 1/4 inch long P&J front shocks

Then I will test drive for a while to see how these changes are working out for me. If I still have scrapping problem, I might consider the bent tie rod first, before resorting to a "raising of the engine" and the domino effect of possible problems that might result from it.

6- I will then check my front stance and assess how high my Hiboy's butt needs to now go to attain proper "IN YOUR FACE, GET OUT OF MY FREAKING WAY" stance that I love oh sooo much .

7- I will then have to figure out rear tire size (I do want to go one size higher in the back) and new rear shocks (mine are leaking and also dead) and possibly new shock mounts that owuld offer more than one position to further play with height.

I think I have it in the proper order right? take care of the front first and then figure out where the rear should sit?

PS: I do want to go one size tire bigger in the rear, but not wider, I don't care for real wide tires on roadsters. At that point I'll have to make decision on which tires to run... ols school White walls? radials? radial with white walls?? But that's another story for another post later down the road...

I am not an expert here but I can offer two comments.

1. It is worth a try to just move the two metal spacer pads to the top of the spring and see if that is enough to improve the situation. That would not require removing the spring.

2. Beware of any step that requires removing the spring shackels on either end. I do not know if you are going to do this yourself or have a shop do it BUT ( ! ) I have changed springs a few times and when you remove the tension on the spring there can be a helluva "kick" capable of breaking an arm easily! The way I have done this is to be very careful and use a large C clamp on the spring that can be gradually loosened after the shackel is removed from one end.

When I put my dropped axle together I got it all together and then realized I had forgotten to put the grease fittings into the king pins and the only way to add them was to take it apart again! During that process I had an "opportunity" to see the spring kick. The large 10" C-clamp I bought was the largest I could find but was still near it's limit and it slipped off just while I was messing with the spring and "WHAMMO"! Fortunately my hands were clear but it was a close call. If this is done in a shop they should have a way to clamp the spring while the shackels are loosened so I recommend you talk this over with a friendly shop person who has the right tools.

Overall, just moving the spacers to the top of the spring might do the trick and not lose the good stance you have now. You might even try moving just one spacer to the top and leaving the lower one where it is, a 1/4" of added clearance for the crank pulley might be enough. Still you have to ask the question as to whether you want the ride of a coil spring barge like a stock 1952 Buick with the attendant cornering lean or a firmer handling roadster and maybe one other possibility is a softer seat cushion? Note also that as you raise the height of the body relative to the axle, the shock angle will improve slightly so maybe you should try moving both spacer pads to the top for that reason. I favor small incremental improvements rather than total system changes if it is possible and right now you have something which runs so I would just get a shop to move those spacers to the top and try it for a while to see how it rides. As Bob says, the spacers may be compensating for missing spring leaves but adding those leaves back would only make the ride more firm rather than softer. Replacing the spring entirely with a Super-slide with teflon buttons could help if you get a shop to do the work but I would favor keeping the reversed eyes on the first leaf and maybe the total number of leaves would make up for the present spacers. Conclusion: simple change, move the spacers up OR get a Super-slide spring but be careful and let the shop do the replacement!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

In case anyone wants to know the safest way to take a leaf spring apart, here is how I do it:

After the spring is free from the center perch, put two large C clamps on either side of the center bolt and clamp down tightly and make sure they are on straight.

When you are sure they are capable of holding the spring, gently remove the center bolt and replace it with a similar bolt of good grade quaility, except you want this bolt to be about 8 inches long, and have threads for all but maybe 2 inches of the bolt. Put a washer under the head of the bolt and under the nut, to act as a bearing surface while you are loosening and tightening the bolt.

Tighten the bolt down until it is holding the leaves like the original bolt did.

Now, the idea is to use the center bolt to slowly release the tension on the leaves, but I do it in conjunction with loosening the two clamps at the same time. I loosen a little on the two clamps, then loosen the center bolt. Then I keep repeating this process until the leaves are totally loose and exhibit no tension. At this point you can remove the clamps and the center bolt and take all the leaves off of the main leaf.

Once those are gone, the main leaf is easy to remove from the spring shackles, as there is no tension to it at all.

Putting the spring back together is the reverse of this process. With the long center bolt and the two C clamps, you have a better chance of not having the C clamps slip sideways and kiss you in the face.

I have used ALL-THREAD in place of the center bolt too, but you have to go as big as possible, and make sure it is a good quality so it won't break under the load of tightening it up. If you do a couple of turns on the bolt and a couple on the clamps in sequence, you minimize the strain on any of the tools you are using to remove the leaves.

Once you go about 4 inches or so, the spring becomes harmless.

Hope this will help someone out.

Don

The use of TWO clamps is good and the idea of a longer center bolt is also good, BUT in my case I had to flatten the spring to get the shackel bolts through the holes so while both shackels are in the eye-ends my spring was still under tension! I did this by putting a block of wood under one of the eye-ends with the other end bolted together and then clamping down in the center till the spring was flat enough to add/remove the shackel bolt because the spring needs to be flatter to make it longer and take the tension off the shackels. That could be done more safely, I admit, using the long center bolt idea and if you remove the original center bolt I guess the leaves could separate, I did not try that. You might have to take extra care to put the teflon buttons back on a Super-slide if you take the leaves apart. As long as the leaves are bolted together, the arch will have to be flattened to get the shackel bolts out. Hey, I usually have to do things "my way" pretty much as learned from my Dad, and eventually I may do something wrong and get hurt but so far I guess I have either been right or lucky!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Hiboygal, Thanks for your excellent pictures, you are helping me too! I don't have the radiator on my '29 yet so here is a picture of a Brookville replica of a Model A frame with cross steer which is of course not exactly the same as a '32. However even with a 5" dropped axle and a Super-slide I have at least 2" of clearance between the bottom of my harmonic damper-crank-pully and the tie rod. For Tech1, the picture shows that the Panhard bar which is the frontmost of the three bars is clearly out of the way on this setup. What this means to me is that the '32 owned by HiBoyGal is REALLY LOOOOOOW! The good news for HiBoyGal is that she can raise the body relative to the spring maybe at least 1" to get a better shock angle and more clearance for her crank pully and so maybe if the U-bolts are long enough she could use a thicker spacer on top. It looks to me on her pictures that the threads on the U-bolt will indeed allow a thicker spacer on top of the spring so maybe a new spacer 3/4" thick would be the easy way to improve her situation and still have a very low front end. Can anyone do me a favor and tell me if I have the wrong crank damper for a '76 350 SBC? I think it is the one I took to the engine shop but I am not sure and it looks large to me.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Yeah, my mistake. I thought that was a Panhard bar rubbin' on the crank pulley. I think I'll stop postin' for a while. I'm gettin' stuff wrong lately.

Originally Posted by techinspector1

Yeah, my mistake. I thought that was a Panhard bar rubbin' on the crank pulley. I think I'll stop postin' for a while. I'm gettin' stuff wrong lately.

Hey, at least you didn't try to KILL people by giving them a heart attack, like me.


Don

Originally Posted by techinspector1

Yeah, my mistake. I thought that was a Panhard bar rubbin' on the crank pulley. I think I'll stop postin' for a while. I'm gettin' stuff wrong lately.

yeah, no I dont have one but will starting this saturday .... I still appreciate your input, so don't run away!!

Off to a new shop that specializes in frames, alignment and steering/suspension to pick their brains... we'll compare notes tomorrow -

before I go: I received photos showing my hiboy back in the 1980's. Same suspension, I recognize the shocks and shock mounts... Well, the car rode higher then, the leaf springs were more 'arched'... they seem to be more sagging (flat) now... Old age? When you look at these older photos you can see the same shocks had more travel (not so collapsed) then. Their angle was, however just as wrong as they are today - some things never change

Sounds to me like a new set of front leaf springs would be a good place to start and raising the front a hair and see how that changes everything else... baby steps, baby steps...

That sounds in the right order, process of elimination, and go on to the next stage.

About the shock angle thing---this is a matter of triangular mathematics (shudder). When the shock is installed in a truly vertical position, then for every fraction of an inch that your axle moves up or down, the piston inside the shock absorber will move exactly the same amount. The shock absorber is a form of hydraulic cylinder. As the piston moves up and down in the shock tube, it moves the oil inside the shock back and forth through a "controlled orifice"---oil is what they call a "non-compressible medium" so the speed with which the piston moves is controlled by the viscosity of the oil and the size of the "controlled orifice". That action is what "inhibits" the bouncing action of the spring.----You knew that anyways, right!!!----Anyway, as I was saying, when the shock is vertical, the piston movement is at a 1:1 ratio with the axle movement, which is the "maximum effectiveness". When the shock is layed over at an angle, the ratio of movement between it and the axle begins to change, untill you reach a point where if the shock was laying horizontally, the axle would still move up and down, but the piston in the shock wouldn't travel at all, which would be zero effectiveness. So, what happens is that as the shock departs more and more from the vertical, the piston will move less and less, and the "shock effectiveness" will become less and less. Most people like to have the shock leaned in towards the center of the car at the top "a bit" because this acts to inhibit body roll. Hope this helps some.---Brian www.rupnowdesign.com