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Thread: Advice on engine build
          
   
   

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  1. #46
    NTFDAY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Monte View Post
    Ok, will do. Thanks NTFDAY

    Check the article on cam and compression ratio compatibility for starters and go from there.
    Ken Thomas
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  2. #47
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    Make sure you get some zinc additive to put in your oil to help keep that cam from flattening a lobe over time. You will want to have some on hand and add it every time you change your engine's oil.
    Ryan
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  3. #48
    53 Chevy5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Monte View Post
    53 chevy5 , no your fine, I liked your suggestion I just don't want a ls. I made that comment for tech because after I tell him I don't want a ls he sends me a link for ls parts! Lol
    One of the good and bad things about tech as far as I know him is that he says it how it is. It's good if you want one of the more knowledgeable people on here giving you advise, bad if you don't have thick skin from time to time. I know I'd have more money in my pocket if I'd listened to him at times. In the end, he would be right and I had another lesson learned.I think what happend is people were just trying to show you a better engine option in their eyes ( to be blunt, my eyes also ) for making cheap horsepower with a broader power band than a gen 1 sbc can ever do. I feel the gen 1 carb SBC will soon be a nostalgic motor much like the Flat head Ford has become. Not that it's bad and not capable of making power, just not as efficiently. However if you want a gen 1 SBC in the Monte go for it, it's not our build. The SBC is a fine motor capable of making power, if that's what you want, then use it, people have been for 62 years. Just keep in mind my 13 Impala with a V6 is rated at 300hp, and a 2015 Silverado has 350 if I recall. So in the end, if that's defiantly the motor you want, we should not try to change your mind but just give you that option, and then give advice on your choice. Choosing the right parts for a gen 1 sbc to make it run the best is out of my knowledge base so I can't give much advice for you there, an RV cam and headers is as far as I went. Looking back the headers probably didn't even help me and they always leaked
    glennsexton and 34_40 like this.
    Seth

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  4. #49
    84Monte is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Ok, 53 chevy5 , it makes a lot more sense the way you explained it lol. I really don't want to use a ls engine because of all the wiring :/ there's so much when I see a picture of them for sale. But with a sbc 350 there is hardly any for gen 1. But I just seen a 1986 305 with a 700r4 carbed engine for 250... which would be the better deal here, the 78 350 for $200 and I already have a turbo 350 or the 86 305 with 700r4 for $200? Also the 305 is a high output engine
    Last edited by 84Monte; 08-16-2017 at 06:20 PM.

  5. #50
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    84Monte:

    I’ve been reading through the various threads you’ve started and thought I’d throw my two cents in. As mentioned – we thrash this engine build topic often. The Monte Carlo weighs in at about 3200 pounds. Fill the gas tank and add a few friends and you’re pushing close to 2 tons of steel down the street. If you’re looking for torque to come on low and strong, a 383 would be your best bet; however, you have told us quite clearly you want to stay with a 350. Built correctly, 400 horsepower is possible and the 350 will still have good street manners. I’ve posted most of this information over the years in other forums so it may look familiar - especially to those who’ve been on Club Hot Rod for a while. I’ve built a lot of engines (most of which were variations on 327’s and 350’s) and I tend to stick with what I know works. It always comes down to how much money you have to spend – period.

    First and foremost - find a good machine shop and talk with the machinist that will be doing the work and tell him that you’re on a budget and would like to have an “ala-carte” approach that will allow you to pick-and-choose what you’ll have done. Work with the shop and buy the parts from them where possible. Building a relationship with them will go a long way towards a successful end product. At a minimum, I’d do the following

    1. Have the block hot tanked. This gets all the glop off makes things a lot easier to work on. Having a clean base is a must for paint as well. You can have the shop measure all your clearances at this time. The shop can also check the other “vitals” and determine if the mains are square as well as the deck.

    2. Have the machine shop put in new cam bearings. You can decide if you able to put in new brass freeze plus and the oil galley plugs.

    3. If you have a good micrometer, you can measure the crank. If you’re happy with the results, just get new standard size bearings. If not, you’ll need to have it turned and buy appropriately sized bearings. You may well be able to reuse the crank “as-is” with new standard sized bearings. I’ve rebuilt engines with well over 100K miles and been able to use the crank without any work.

    4. Bore your block .030 and buy new pistons and rings. This can be a big ticket if you go fancy – Speed-Pro piston and ring kits are $250, JE and Keith Blacks can easily run $900 plus. Use a piston that gives you a static compression ratio between 9.6:1 - 9.8:1. Work with your machinist here. KB (and others) has an offset dish type piston in a D-cup configuration that provides a nice crown to complement the Vortec head configuration.

    5. Your rods are probably okay. The stock GM rods are really pretty tough to hurt as long as they have good oil. If you’re using the original piston, this is a “no-brainer”, keep the stock rods too.

    6. Since you purchased a re-buildable engine for a reasonable price, you’ve got some options. I’d opt for L31 Vortecs, casting number 12558062 or 10239906. They were used on '96-'99 Chevy trucks with the L31 5700 Vortec engine and are readily available in wrecking yards and on Craigslist / eBay (if you buy them on-line, make sure they’re genuine GM heads – not knock offs!). These heads use rail rockers, so get the rockers with them if you can. These are some of the best flowing production heads that Chevy ever made. Have your machine shop pin the studs, install new seals, and perform a 5-angle valve job. You can buy Comp Cams drop-in beehive valve springs and retainers that complement your cam and you have a great set of heads.

    7. Buy a good gasket set. Your machine shop probably will cut you a good deal on FelPro or similar.

    The Vortec heads mentioned above are 64cc. Ask your machinist to cut the block decks to 9.001" for a zero piston deck height and use a 0.040" or 0.042" compressed head gasket. This should allow you to run premium pump gas without detonation.

    You also seem set on a flat tappet cam – I’d recommend you reconsider as the benefits of a roller are paramount during break in. I also understand the money and a flat tappet cam is okay if install it with the correct break in lube and you break it in religiously as per manufacturer’s specifications. I like Moroso 35000 moly lube. A 4 ounce tube is about $20 but that’s money well spent. A good cam for this engine would be Comp Cams part 12-246-3. Anything larger will give you problems. This is a flat tappet cam so you’ll need to pay attention to break-in, but it’s a proven performer that won’t break the bank and will give you great performance on the street with a lot of mid-range snap. It will have a bit of a lope but not to the extent that your friends will wonder if you have a flatulating elephant under the hood. Listen to Tech on cams – unless you’re driving a Harley, rumpty rump on the street is the sign of a poor design – period.

    To break in the cam - once you fire the engine, immediately bring to 3,000 rpm. Timing should be adjusted to 8-10 degrees BTDC to keep the heat down during break-in. Get the engine running fairly smoothly and vary the engine speed from 1500-3000 RPM in a slow, to moderate, acceleration/deceleration cycle. If something doesn’t sound right, or you see any leaks, shut the engine immediately off and check out and fix the source. Upon restart, immediately resume the high idle speed cycling. Continue the varying speed for 20–30 minutes. Shut down and drain the oil – if there’s no shiny metal in the oil you’re probably okay. Use the zinc additive for the next 1500 miles and then change the oil again.

    I like the Edelbrock Performer RPM Vortec #7116 or Performer RPM Air Gap Vortec #7516 intake manifold. These are Vortec specific manifolds that require a square bore (Holley or Edelbrock) carburetor. Stay with a 600 -650CFM carburetor.

    Buy some Hooker 1 5/8" long tube, equal length headers that fit the car and route through Flowmaster 40 series mufflers – I really like ceramic coated for looks, longevity and heat dissipation.

    In addition to the above – make sure you get a good new oil pump with a welded or otherwise firmly affixed pickup. Miloden kit with pan, windage tray, bolts, one piece gasket, pump, and pickup is a good investment. Go with a stock 5 quart pan – resist the temptation to go with a deep pan unless you know you’ll have lots of ground clearance.

    New lifters – Comp Cams, new timing set – double roller from Summit is fine, new HEI distributor, new water pump, and good gasket set like Felpro.

    Put it all together and use the stock fan setup and shroud – resist the temptation to use an electric fan. They do not save horsepower nor do they cool anywhere near as well as the stock GM fan. Stay with the stock fuel pump as well – no advantage to an electric unit as the stock GM is the most dependable part on the face of God’s green earth and will self-regulate to 4-5 psi at the carb.

    If you put all of the above on paper – you’ll have well over $2,000 by the time you’re done. If you don’t have the money, save until you do as cutting corners will always cost you more in the long run.

    And one last thing... Listen to the folks on the site. We’re not trying to bust your chops, but you sound young and we’d like to help you start this right. Tech is really a guru in terms of analysis and knowing what works in terms of compression rations and cam selection. Jerry has been a professional racer for a long, long, time – he really knows his stuff. I’m just an old guy that has loved cars and built engines for fifty plus years.

    Kinda long – I know that I can ramble but us ol’ guys do that from time-to-time.

    Again – welcome to CHR and hope this helps you along the road. We really do want you to succeed here!
    Glenn
    "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty." John Basil Barnhil

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Monte View Post
    Ok, 53 chevy5 , it makes a lot more sense the way you explained it lol. I really don't want to use a ls engine because of all the wiring :/ there's so much when I see a picture of them for sale. But with a sbc 350 there is hardly any for gen 1. But I just seen a 1986 305 with a 700r4 carbed engine for 250... which would be the better deal here, the 78 350 for $200 and I already have a turbo 350 or the 86 305 with 700r4 for $200? Also the 305 is a high output engine

    The 305 is a smog engine pig
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTFDAY View Post
    The 305 is a smog engine pig
    But it makes more power than the 350 being a high output motor. What do you think I would make the best results with NTFDAY? Glenn, that is some amazing advice. But I don't have the money for all of that lol. So considering budget, the 2 engines-78 350 with 350 turbo trans and 86 305 high output, with 700r4 which would be the better choice? Oh and also my monte carlos interior is gutted, only 1 racing seat in it.
    Last edited by 84Monte; 08-16-2017 at 06:48 PM.

  8. #53
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    The 350. Cubic inches rule here.
    "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty." John Basil Barnhil

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennsexton View Post
    The 350. Cubic inches rule here.
    Ok, yeah I know there's no replacement for displacement. And I also never mentioned that the 78 350 has been sitting for a very long time... years.. the 305 was just taken out of a firebird in June

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Monte View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear on what I meant when I said agressive lopey sound. Like I want a sound that you would let people know it has a cam, like a choppy kind of idle. And I meant I want to have really good torque taking off and good power up to around 5000 rpm. I've looked at a cam that might fit the description. Thoughts on this cam would be greatly appreciated Part number is Sum- 1069. Advertised Duration 280/280, Lift .443/.443
    In all honesty, this reminds me of all those guys who run glass pack mufflers and think they are really something. Little over twenty years ago when i was in school, i ran the choppy-lopey idle. It sounded good, but that's all i could really say about it. Good thing i've wised up over the years...
    1972 Z28 Camaro, Full Drag Car, 383 CID
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  11. #56
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    84---------just how old are you and where do you live-Neverland Ne can't be found on Google map

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 84Monte View Post
    But it makes more power than the 350 being a high output motor. What do you think I would make the best results with NTFDAY? Glenn, that is some amazing advice. But I don't have the money for all of that lol. So considering budget, the 2 engines-78 350 with 350 turbo trans and 86 305 high output, with 700r4 which would be the better choice? Oh and also my monte carlos interior is gutted, only 1 racing seat in it.
    don't know where you think the 305 makes more power. nonetheless, if you go with the 305 then you're going to spend even more money which you've already said you did not have.

    On some other side notes from reading thru the threads: I'm a Gen 1 guy and would not really care to have any other motor than a gen 1.

    Guys like Denny and Tech are full of knowledge. Tech coached me on building a 383 and i learned a great deal from the man. Denny has been an invaluable resource to me over the years and I consider him a knowledgeable friend. That's to say, be a little respectful to the guys on here who've been down the road your on fifty plus times over. if ya knew as much as they did, ya'd prob not be on here asking questions in the first place.....something to think about..
    1972 Z28 Camaro, Full Drag Car, 383 CID
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  13. #58
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    84 being the year of my monte carlo... and I put never land because I had never used this site before and didn't know if it was a trusted site. Rdobbs.. what is wrong with glass packs? Would pick glasspacks over any other type of muffler. And also, I was plenty respectful to tech until I told him 3 or 4 times I DO NOT WANT A LS ENGINE fo various reasons, he kept giving me info on ls engines, and links to ls parts... and I know the 305 I'm talking about makes more horsepower... look up specs for a 1978 chevy van then look up specs for a 1986 high output firebird. The 305 puts out more power.
    Last edited by 84Monte; 08-16-2017 at 07:34 PM.

  14. #59
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    I had a 1986IROC Camaro with 305 like your talking about--------My John Deere lawn mower felt faster---------however, if it is a roller cam block you'll have the opturnity to use decent cam-------If you really want a gen 1 engine with some power look for a 400--------
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  15. #60
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    Only 26 Trans Ams were built with the 305 H.O L69 in 1986 so the likelihood of this being a L69 is probably pretty slim. The L69 was rated at 190 or 210 horse power (depending on the source) with 240 foot-pounds of torque at 3,200 rpm. 350s equipped with four-barrel Quadrajet carburetors in the 1973-91 C and K trucks produced 170 horsepower at 3,800 rpm and 255 foot-pounds of torque at 2,800 rpm. In all likelihood, you would not be able to tell the difference between the two if transplanted into your Monte Carlo.

    Cubic inches will rule the day – as you can afford to upgrade the difference will be obvious.
    "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty." John Basil Barnhil

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