327 vs 400 argument..

Well it went from a small arguement that me and my cousin were having into a $10,000 race situation..

He argues about cubic inches all the time, and i understand that..
I always argue about making power faster with Rpms....

Well now he's going to build a 400 for his 88 cutlass...
And I am going to build a 327 for my 79 Malibu ....

He'll run 3.73's and I'll run 4.10's

I think he's going to try to build a 421?? and our limits for spending are $3,000 a piece.. No NOS...

So anyone who has engine building experience i would like to hear some input on the situation, and maybe some build ideas for my 327.. I'm really trying to just jump and run with it for the 1/4

Well, if you're going to run just one pass, then build your 327 so it makes one pass at about 10,000 RPM. If you make it across the line first, you win $10,000 just as the engine's internal components exit the oil pan!!!!! You're still 7K ahead!!!!!!

you're gonna need more gear. I'd be thinkin' about a 5.13

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Originally posted by YoungMalibu
Well it went from a small arguement that me and my cousin were having into a $10,000 race situation..

He argues about cubic inches all the time, and i understand that..
I always argue about making power faster with Rpms....

Well now he's going to build a 400 for his 88 cutlass...
And I am going to build a 327 for my 79 Malibu ....

He'll run 3.73's and I'll run 4.10's

I think he's going to try to build a 421?? and our limits for spending are $3,000 a piece.. No NOS...

So anyone who has engine building experience i would like to hear some input on the situation, and maybe some build ideas for my 327.. I'm really trying to just jump and run with it for the 1/4

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I promised everyone I would be good.I don't think you could build a 421 for $3,000.In parts you will have an easy $ 1,750 in just the short block.Then there is labor.I would count on $350 and more..Now you have to buy heads lets say $1,000 or more in a set of Darts,Brodix etc. because a Vortec head won't flow well enough.The point I am trying to make is the 421 is a bomb unless you put alot into block prep.The 327 is way to small and you will have to gear the pi-- out of it to get it to leave.If you double the $3,000 to $6,000 it would be alot more fun.I don't think you are being very realistic in either one of your goals.

I think your in trouble Young- if he builds that 400 right he's gonna eat your lunch.
He's going to have Low end torque, and top end horse's, unless he misses a shift he should own you.
You might try mixing some nitro into your fuel (not more that 10%). Good Luck !

I agree with Tech, You'll need to build a 7500+ motor and go with a lower gear. Also take every bit of weight out of your car that you can. You did not mention whether either of you are automatic or stick. You will need a good converter as well. Good luck, 70 cubic inches is a lot to overcome when both of your are the same weight. Not saying it can't be done, good luck.

Pat

When you run only put 5 gallons of gas, and 1/2 gallon of RC car fuel- it's pure nitro, and you can get it from any hobby store.
Find yourself a set of double humps, and get a winder cam- solid lift/ with lifters, and don't go too big on the lift because that's a pop-up motor, and you don't want your valves to smack the domes- so plastigage it in case you have to cut your reliefs. Ask your manufacturer for reccomendations on lift.
Can you port & polish? You'll want to open up the exhaust side and swirl port the pockets- the intake runners are good on those heads like they are. Get the intake valves cut to 202's if they aren't already- balance the rotating assy. well, and polish the crank if you have time.
Stock CR for the 327 was 11to1, with 461's it's going to jump up to about 11:8 to 1 if not more so you can count on trick fuel.
If your going to run automatic you'll need to have it gone thru for racing, and a HIGH stall converter will be needed.
If your going stick a no blow bellhousing, and a Kevlar blanket would be good- make sure that the break away's in the shifter haven't been replaced with bolts- I see this a lot. Dumb move.
And finaly install a loop for the drive shaft, and chain downs for the motor.

P.S. DON'T OVER CARB I would start with a 670cfm and jet up if needed

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Originally posted by hambiskit
When you run only put 5 gallons of gas, and 1/2 gallon of RC car fuel- it's pure nitro, and you can get it from any hobby store.
Find yourself a set of double humps, and get a winder cam- solid lift/ with lifters, and don't go too big on the lift because that's a pop-up motor, and you don't want your valves to smack the domes- so plastigage it in case you have to cut your reliefs. Ask your manufacturer for reccomendations on lift.
Can you port & polish? You'll want to open up the exhaust side and swirl port the pockets- the intake runners are good on those heads like they are. Get the intake valves cut to 202's if they aren't already- balance the rotating assy. well, and polish the crank if you have time.
Stock CR for the 327 was 11to1, with 461's it's going to jump up to about 11:8 to 1 if not more so you can count on trick fuel.
If your going to run automatic you'll need to have it gone thru for racing, and a HIGH stall converter will be needed.
If your going stick a no blow bellhousing, and a Kevlar blanket would be good- make sure that the break away's in the shifter haven't been replaced with bolts- I see this a lot. Dumb move.
And finaly install a loop for the drive shaft, and chain downs for the motor.

P.S. DON'T OVER CARB I would start with a 670cfm and jet up if needed

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How can one use plasti-gauge for checking piston to valve clearance?? The nitro fuel you are talking about is for rc engines uses about 15-30% nitro,the rest is alcohol and oil of some type,.This fuel is for a 2-stroke engine.

....yeah, your going to need some sort of trick/tricks to win. An engine is just an air pump. The more air/fuel that goes into the cylinders, the more power that is produced. An a 400 cu in motor is a bigger air pump than a 327 cu in motor. A LOT bigger motor. Thats why they seperate some drag race classes by the motor size. ALL being equal, that is weight, traction, etc, etc, etc... He's is going to eat your lunch because of the 'fixed budget'. Now, on the other hand, if you put $20 g's into your engine & he puts $3 g's into his, it could be a different outcome. Plus 3 g's isn't much money to work with for either of you. And seeing as how your building a high RPM motor your going to have to use TOP quality parts if you want your motor to last. Example; he can get away with a cast crank, your's is going to need to be forged..... Either make him another bet where you KNOW that your right & then you'll be one for one on your 2 bets or cheat on this one...... zzz

....yeah, your going to need some sort of trick/tricks to win. An engine is just an air pump. The more air/fuel that goes into the cylinders, the more power that is produced. An a 400 cu in motor is a bigger air pump than a 327 cu in motor. A LOT bigger motor. Thats why they seperate some drag race classes by the motor size. ALL being equal, that is weight, traction, etc, etc, etc... He's is going to eat your lunch because of the 'fixed budget'. Now, on the other hand, if you put $20 g's into your engine & he puts $3 g's into his, it could be a different outcome. Plus 3 g's isn't much money to work with for either of you. And seeing as how your building a high RPM motor your going to have to use TOP quality parts if you want your motor to last. Example; he can get away with a cast crank, your's is going to need to be forged..... Either make him another bet where you KNOW that your right & then you'll be one for one on your 2 bets or cheat on this one...... zzz

fill the block 1/2 way what block rock find some good e -bay parts how many runs do you need? stud the bottom end make thick steel blocks that go over the top of all the main caps or girdle but the back cap .some work need to be done to the caps but not much. a very good oil pan used a set of light I beam rods . try to find some good heads coat the tops of the pistons buy some mls head gaskets like cometic the stud the heads try to buy all stuff used small soild roller cam and run some nitro in it:whacked: the engine will not win the race if your car will not hook so work on that . sounds like fun

Eric- I put it on top of the reliefs- set the head & bolt down with gasket- then turn it over by hand a few times, remove the head and check it.
Don't you, or do you use clay?
"ell- we have used peanut butter.:D
The RC nitro will work fine. He's wanting a one time shot down the strip for 10k.

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Originally posted by hambiskit
Eric- I put it on top of the reliefs- set the head & bolt down with gasket- then turn it over by hand a few times, remove the head and check it.
Don't you, or do you use clay?
"ell- we have used peanut butter.:D
The RC nitro will work fine. He's wanting a one time shot down the strip for 10k.

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Neither,I use valve checking springs on a couple holes. and bring the engine to T.D.C. and turn the rocker adjusting nut down at the same time I have a dial indicator on the rocker to check travel.Lobe lift times rocker arm ratio determines the lift.I max out the lift and then run it down another .060 on the intake and .080 on the exhaust if they don't make contact I am good to go.If I do make contact then it is fly -cutting time.I like to run .080 on the exahust and .060 on the intake for the clearance. Where do you find plasti-gauge that is thick enough?? P.S. I use peanut buttter on my sandwich.

i do not care for clay to much but have used it . i use step up springs and you can use a feeler gage set and add what you can set between the rocker and valve stem on the over lap hand crank it thru with you feeler set up in place betweeen stem and valve push down on the rocker to find the close spot this will tell how much you have

The most powerful internal combustion engines in the world do so at about 84 rpm so horsepower can be made at slow speeds with sufficient torque. Since a 400 weighs the same as a 327 and can rev almost as high, it will hands down stomp on the 327. The rev limitations on most small blocks are in the valves, not the rotating assembly. Since both the 327 and 400 share the same valve system, they will both rev to about the same rpms.

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Originally posted by hambiskit
Eric- I put it on top of the reliefs- set the head & bolt down with gasket- then turn it over by hand a few times, remove the head and check it.
Don't you, or do you use clay?
"ell- we have used peanut butter.:D
The RC nitro will work fine. He's wanting a one time shot down the strip for 10k.

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I can see where the peanut butter will work hambiskit, but you are right about the plastigauge and the plastigauge might be cheaper.
Plastigauge Retail Pack- the world standard in bearing clearance measurement. The original and still the best. British made. You (or your mechanic) will need this during the rebuilding process. Accept no substitute, genuine Plastigauge is recommended by Lotus, Jensen Motors and most all manufacturers for checking clearances. Perfect for bearing clearance measurement, works great for checking "cylinder head to valve clearance" when clearance is in question after a head resurfacing and for checking any hidden surface.
Whenever your crankshaft and connecting rods are removed , it's essential that you check clearances with new or old bearings when reinstalling. Don't assume it will fit! Lotus runs a very tight static clearance of .00125 - 0.0025 for the main bearings and any deviation from this can result in low oil pressure and a ruined motor (I've heard that sorry story many times in the past).

Plastigauge PL-A measures 0.001 - 0.007 and comes with 10 rods, gauge chart and instructions. Enough for one engine.

Need bulk quantities of Plastigauge or a different product for another application? See our site at "PlastigaugeUSA.com" for the full range of products

I like peanut butter....

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Originally posted by hambiskit
I like peanut butter....

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me to, peanut butter and mayonaise sandwich, peanut butter and banana sandwich, mice like it also. works good in a mouse trap. :HMMM: :LOL:

i got an idea for the peanut butter.... put it in your cousins gas tank.... and then you'll hopefully win..... if not he'll have some tasty exhaust smell :D

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Originally posted by lt1s10
me to, peanut butter and mayonaise sandwich, peanut butter and banana sandwich, mice like it also. works good in a mouse trap. :HMMM: :LOL:

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peanut butter and mayonaise sandwich?:eek: :confused: do you deep fry them?

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Originally posted by Stu Cool
I agree with Tech, You'll need to build a 7500+ motor and go with a lower gear. Also take every bit of weight out of your car that you can. You did not mention whether either of you are automatic or stick. You will need a good converter as well. Good luck, 70 cubic inches is a lot to overcome when both of your are the same weight. Not saying it can't be done, good luck.

Pat

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I'm 4 spd and he's 3 spd

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Originally posted by pat mccarthy
peanut butter and mayonaise sandwich?:eek: :confused: do you deep fry them?

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no! I eat them. :HMMM: :LOL:

yeah Mike- me too, peanut butter & banana & mayo's good too.
But I guess the plastigauge would be cheaper....PB will tell you if they are hitting though.

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Originally posted by hambiskit
yeah Mike- me too, peanut butter & banana & mayo's good too.
But I guess the plastigauge would be cheaper....PB will tell you if they are hitting though.

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I've never used it for that , but they say its works. if the valves get close enough to the piston and you have plastigauge between the valve and piston it has to work. you can eat the peanut butter and check the clearances at the same time. **) :LOL:

I tried beer- but it kept going flat....

I tried beer and it ran off the top of the piston. :confused:

would that be ex crunchy? yes mike i know you eat them but :confused: thought it may be a deep fry thing

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Originally posted by pat mccarthy
would that be ex crunchy? yes mike i know you eat them but :confused: thought it may be a deep fry thing

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doc. told me not to eat nothing deep fried. :rolleyes: so i don't while he is looking. :LOL:

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Originally posted by lt1s10
me to, peanut butter and mayonaise sandwich, peanut butter and banana sandwich, mice like it also. works good in a mouse trap. :HMMM: :LOL:

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Peanut butter and mayo on a saltine cracker is right tasty. :3dSMILE:

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Originally posted by NTFDAY
Peanut butter and mayo on a saltine cracker is right tasty. :3dSMILE:

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i guess i have been missing out :confused: never thought they went to gether :HMMM:

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Originally posted by NTFDAY
Peanut butter and mayo on a saltine cracker is right tasty. :3dSMILE:

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can't see the mayo on the saltine. :(

saltines crackers with sardines on them with red hot tabasco on them now that fine eating:3dSMILE:

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Originally posted by lt1s10
can't see the mayo on the saltine. :(

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You guys just don't know what you're missing. :3dSMILE:

Don't mean to rain on your parade of peanut butter and things.I would like to know how one can use plasti-gauge to check piston to valve clearance??

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Originally posted by erik erikson
Don't mean to rain on your parade of peanut butter and things.I would like to know how one can use plasti-gauge to check piston to valve clearance??

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how about a sardines it may work:whacked: hey is this the food channel:LOL:

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Originally posted by pat mccarthy
how about a sardines it may work:whacked: hey is this the food channel:LOL:

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Would that be in oil or tomato paste?:LOL:

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Originally posted by NTFDAY
You guys just don't know what you're missing. :3dSMILE:

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if you talking porking beans and crackers, vienna, or potted meat you talking good eating. no sardines :(

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Originally posted by erik erikson
Would that be in oil or tomato paste?:LOL:

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oh hell that would be tomato paste slap a bit of peanut butter on that puppy for good luck:LOL: :whacked:

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Originally posted by lt1s10
if you talking porking beans and crackers, vienna, or potted meat you talking good eating. no sardines :(

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I'll tell you right now.I am not porking anyones beans.:3dSMILE:

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Originally posted by erik erikson
I'll tell you right now.I am not porking anyones beans.:3dSMILE:

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:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: