427 Build what do I need

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Originally Posted by calxen61

I really thank you guys for your help, and yes I did search the site as well as other sites and this has been the best, by the way where is Bay City. I have collected several cars over the years and now retired I want to work on them and build my first BB motor. I got the 427TD for dirt cheap, with overhauled 73 454 heads, but as I am finding out it was not the best thing to get for a chevelle. So I am trying to see what I can salvage from it and move on.

Info you guys take for granted is an education for me.

So Pat said earlier " there two ways to go with this build up take all parts less pistons use a 454 block and build a 427 out of it . or start build with a 9.800 deck block with Gm 454 block you can get to 512 cid with out much work built many of the 489 to510 . i have done many of the 10.200 tall decks but we start at 572to 632 cid then it,s worth the work for things to fit . "

Do both these builds use any of the parts I have, and if I did the first option is there and HP there?

thanks

cal

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bay city is past flint north by about 40 miles my shop is in kawkawlin mi that 20 miles north of bay city . the deal is the deck is really not to tall aPontiac is 10.250 .olds is 10.625 all at one time GM did stuff them in a A body car But the 427 tall bbc was never in a car so work needs to be done and you need to run a bbc A body oil pan on any bbc has the cross over is close and the drag link inner tie rods will hit at full lock if not the right oil pan . things you can use out of the 427 tall deck .is the heads . the crank. the rods. timing cover . oil pump drive . head bolts ... but i buy new.. if you used all this and if you had a 396/402 block with 396/402 pistons would end up with a 9.800 deck engine all parts would bolt up to block and fit in the car with not much work if you had a 454 block and used all your parts with 427 .9.800 piston CH of 1.765 for the 3.760 crank you have you would have a 427 car engine..... the bore on a 454 block is 4.250 same as 454 .thats how you get a 427 from a454 . the 396/402 bore was smaller but cranks is still a 3.760 .. not many blocks could be bore to 4.250 bore so just better not think about it very few would take the over bore. you will see i never said a 427 9.800 car block and just told you to look for a 454 block the 427 car blocks are $$$$ less you in the right place at the right time realy do not need the427 9.800 block to build one better save it for the number restoration guys with deep pockets but even the older 454 blocks are of value to. bbc are not as cheap as SBC round here they always costed more for good cores

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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

SORRY I DID NOT KNOW HOW BAD IT SUCKS :( if he wants to call me to talk thats fine shop numbers all over the net and face book . i am not a bad guy as some think on here .i have some short blocks done or be happy to build him a lower buck 454 030 over as i have some stock crank s and some with more arm if he wants more CID :)

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Yeah, I didn't know about the Search feature either until I tried to find the old post about finding TDC and gave up after banging my head into the wall multiple times, and I even knew who posted what I wanted!! Maybe I just don't understand how the engine works!!

OK.. with all due respect.. i have to disagree with only a single point.. that a tall deck will not fit, that it is not a drop in engine..
I run a tall deck in a 68 Camaro, and in my dually.. both are stroked engines.. the 489 in the dually just set up for GOBS of low end torque.. the only concession I had to make on the Camaro was the small diameter booster, the headers actually cleared a little easier. On the Dually I had to get the spacers for the intake and machined the dist lock ring off and added a collar to correct the height. Both engines "dropped right in" using the stock motor mounts etc.. your talking about a 9.8 to 10.2 difference. Less than a half inch.. If an aftermarket intake is used for the tall deck the difference remains at half inch on the breather as well, if the spacers are used it can go beyond an inch taller depending on the intake.
I have installed Tall deck engines in a 56 Chevy truck, a 66 GTO, A 70 Camaro, Multiple 80's / 90's trucks and many other vehicles, including a Vega. They do fit... some with NO modifications, some require slight alterations like a smaller vac booster, and once in a while headers designed for the application. Some... like the Vega require a bit more alteration.
What you have to consider is your application.. depending on what your going to put it into.. is the smaller diameter booster worth using the tall deck?
I know they will fit in 60s and 70's camaro's using that smaller booster, I have yet to install a tall deck into a chevelle, but considering they came with 9.8 deck height big blocks I doubt there would be much fuss getting the tall deck into it.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...DragTruck4.jpg

60's trucks arent an issue either... I suppose it all comes down to what you consider DROP IN... :HMMM:

Pat is the "go-to" BBC guy and I wouldn't do anything he says not to, but just for grins, I assembled this BBC just to have some fun on the DynoSim software........
Cheapo BBC 505 tall deck grunt motor - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board

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Originally Posted by OldMech

OK.. with all due respect.. i have to disagree with only a single point.. that a tall deck will not fit, that it is not a drop in engine..
I run a tall deck in a 68 Camaro, and in my dually.. both are stroked engines.. the 489 in the dually just set up for GOBS of low end torque.. the only concession I had to make on the Camaro was the small diameter booster, the headers actually cleared a little easier. On the Dually I had to get the spacers for the intake and machined the dist lock ring off and added a collar to correct the height. Both engines "dropped right in" using the stock motor mounts etc.. your talking about a 9.8 to 10.2 difference. Less than a half inch.. If an aftermarket intake is used for the tall deck the difference remains at half inch on the breather as well, if the spacers are used it can go beyond an inch taller depending on the intake.
I have installed Tall deck engines in a 56 Chevy truck, a 66 GTO, A 70 Camaro, Multiple 80's / 90's trucks and many other vehicles, including a Vega. They do fit... some with NO modifications, some require slight alterations like a smaller vac booster, and once in a while headers designed for the application. Some... like the Vega require a bit more alteration.
What you have to consider is your application.. depending on what your going to put it into.. is the smaller diameter booster worth using the tall deck?
I know they will fit in 60s and 70's camaro's using that smaller booster, I have yet to install a tall deck into a chevelle, but considering they came with 9.8 deck height big blocks I doubt there would be much fuss getting the tall deck into it.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...DragTruck4.jpg

60's trucks arent an issue either... I suppose it all comes down to what you consider DROP IN... :HMMM:

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yep well i done many tall decks 572 to 638 .and gm 427 blocks 525to540 as well put a few in but built and machined way more one just went out the door. going in a 70 chevelle is a GM A body like a gto done the GTOs more then one time :). but the headers i allways made the tall deck is not a big deal if you building headers were the rub comes in is that most race heads have a raised ex port of .300then you add your 400 to it = .700 lets just say 3/4 not many headers are going to work .power boosters never a big deal very few have much vacuum at idle anyways. far as the dist cutting them down and the intake plates that s just part of my job building engines no big deal just time. long has the customer knows this .now slip collars dist and intakes that are made for the tall deck are not hard to get not like it was 20 years ago

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Originally Posted by rspears

Yeah, I didn't know about the Search feature either until I tried to find the old post about finding TDC and gave up after banging my head into the wall multiple times, and I even knew who posted what I wanted!! Maybe I just don't understand how the engine works!!

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I certainly don't know anything about running a forum, but I see this one headed downhill in a handbasket. Some days I come on here and find only a half dozen new posts since the day before. I can find that many new posts on the Hamb in a couple of minutes or less.

Well----I don't want to hi jack this thread but---------I agree that its going down hill at an alarming rate altho it has reached nearly a vertical slope and is near terminal velocity----I have reached a point where I don't want to try to post any pics from any shows or races I go to and I won't start or add any posts of depth with detailed pics of any machining or engine assembly work----of the 5 or 6 posters still on here regularly, even Roger is complaining about the lack of a decent search ability--------

Oh Well---at least Tech's three word thread is leading----------

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Oh Well---at least Tech's three word thread is leading----------

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Yep, and it was hijacked from hotrodders.com........
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Originally Posted by pat mccarthy

yep well i done many tall decks 572 to 638 .and gm 427 blocks 525to540 as well put a few in but built and machined way more one just went out the door. going in a 70 chevelle is a GM A body like a gto done the GTOs more then one time :). but the headers i allways made the tall deck is not a big deal if you building headers were the rub comes in is that most race heads have a raised ex port of .300then you add your 400 to it = .700 lets just say 3/4 not many headers are going to work .power boosters never a big deal very few have much vacuum at idle anyways. far as the dist cutting them down and the intake plates that s just part of my job building engines no big deal just time. long has the customer knows this .now slip collars dist and intakes that are made for the tall deck are not hard to get not like it was 20 years ago

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I agree completely. I have not built many with raised exhaust ports, and back when I did, they didnt go into anything that was going to be streeted regularly, so I will certainly have to leave that knowledge to you :)
I really cant say I dislike the way things have gone with the aftermarket.. I can remember going through cars at the salvage yards as well as their engine piles looking for certain parts and pieces.. in the early 80's when we started building 383's spending days calling places to find a 400 rotating assembly, and paying nearly as much for that worn out stuff as were paying for New now. I can remember when I was offered 2000 each for my Tall decks... you can nearly buy a merlin for that price now.


Pat is the "go-to" BBC guy and I wouldn't do anything he says not to, but just for grins, I assembled this BBC just to have some fun on the DynoSim software........

I'm old and stubbern, disagreeing with someone and THEN learning I am WRONG is the best way to get something through my thick skull.. but in this case were talking about apples and oranges.. I build a lot of engines but Most of the parts are not top end stuff like he is talking about. Most of the folks around here cant afford it. The 800 Dollar Aluminum heads from KMJ Performance are the norm rather than the cheap exception.

Tech1 I like that build.. might be worth looking at having the core shift checked on my last remaining tall deck just to do it! Thx!

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Originally Posted by OldMech

I'm old and stubbern, disagreeing with someone and THEN learning I am WRONG is the best way to get something through my thick skull.. but in this case were talking about apples and oranges.. I build a lot of engines but Most of the parts are not top end stuff like he is talking about. Most of the folks around here cant afford it. The 800 Dollar Aluminum heads from KMJ Performance are the norm rather than the cheap exception.

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I'm kind of the same way, in many instances Hot Rodding has become a game of who has the biggest checkbook and/or wants to be the guy who can brag about all the trick pieces in his engine and entire car for that matter! It's always easier to insist on the best of the best when you're spending someone else's money and not your own! I like the good pieces too but IMO some of them just aren't worth the expense for a street or street/competition engine but reality steps in and many of us have learned to make do with less.

We bracket raced for 5 seasons with the same cast crank, good rods and pistons, and "out of date" CJ heads on a 501" Ford then the guy who bought the car ran it a couple more seasons!!!! In the fall it got a leak down check, then taken apart and checked internally then put back together. The car only ran 10.50's but it would do it consistently and throughout it's lifetime put a lot of very high dollar cars back in the trailer! Could have bought a bunch of trick pieces for it, but for what we were doing with the car there was no reason to do it, a faster car with tons of $$$$$ in the engine doesn't make a whole lot of sense in dial-in, handicap start racing! Same goes for a street toy, street tires and a place to run it being the limiting factors.....If you can't hook it up why poor a ton of money into the engine? Heck, locally a lot of people say I put too much money in my stuff but my "budget" is a drop in the bucket as compared to what some THINK I should spend. I couldn't afford heads-up pro car racing anyway, so for me it always works best to let common sense and practicality determine the budget for the build.

BTW, many years back had a tall deck 427 in a '68 Nova...... A bit of rearranging on the floor board/firewall area was all it took to make out-of-the-box Hooker's work just fine on it!

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Originally Posted by OldMech

I agree completely. I have not built many with raised exhaust ports, and back when I did, they didnt go into anything that was going to be streeted regularly, so I will certainly have to leave that knowledge to you :)
I really cant say I dislike the way things have gone with the aftermarket.. I can remember going through cars at the salvage yards as well as their engine piles looking for certain parts and pieces.. in the early 80's when we started building 383's spending days calling places to find a 400 rotating assembly, and paying nearly as much for that worn out stuff as were paying for New now. I can remember when I was offered 2000 each for my Tall decks... you can nearly buy a merlin for that price now.


Pat is the "go-to" BBC guy and I wouldn't do anything he says not to, but just for grins, I assembled this BBC just to have some fun on the DynoSim software........

I'm old and stubbern, disagreeing with someone and THEN learning I am WRONG is the best way to get something through my thick skull.. but in this case were talking about apples and oranges.. I build a lot of engines but Most of the parts are not top end stuff like he is talking about. Most of the folks around here cant afford it. The 800 Dollar Aluminum heads from KMJ Performance are the norm rather than the cheap exception.

Tech1 I like that build.. might be worth looking at having the core shift checked on my last remaining tall deck just to do it! Thx!

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well if you think my customer have deep pocket s you and others on here are very wrong.... i used second hand bowties . pro blocks . others. many get welded and sleeved fixed by me . some things get reused . some heads are fixed or are blems cams cores get reground .titanium valves are used and cut down. hell when i started i never wasted my time at the junk yard for blocks and cranks i used the scrap yards in town to buy my parts by the pound . some of my best engines came off the scrap pile shopping deals and buying parts second hand was how i did it that 80s/90s .there is more to core shift on the 427 tall deck to look for. if you going past 100 over any thing up to a 4.250 crank in a drop in. 4.1/2 crank needs some work. not all blocks will take a 4.250 them are the ones to keep way from if your building a tall deck stroker less you want to open up the jackets