Can I run w/o trans oil going into radiator???

Hello Everyone, I hope your all having a great week-end! ;) I was wondering if I can run my transmission w/o the trans oil going into the radiator to help cool it. I have a transmission cooler. And if I can't, is there a radiator that just runs the coolent into say the bottom of the radiator rather than having the extra tubes in front of the regular radiator? Or maybe I can run two trans coolers? Thanks ;) Bill

Oh, '32 Ford, turbo 400 trans, with a blown up small block :( but I want to put a Hemi in it & need more room! :) ;)......

You can just use an external trans cooler. Most radiator trans coolers are located in the bottom of the radiator. You can mount the trans cooler under the car as long as it's in the air flow. I use the double pass heat sink type coolers.

A friend of mine just runs a short loop of tubing right at the tranny in his pro street camaro... doesn't drive it real far on the street often though... I would guess in a lightweight deuce it wouldn't get too hot unless you were on it a lot...

-Chris

I'm just running an external cooler and it works fine. I also had an external cooler on my Jeep truck and pulled many a trailer with it and never had a heat issue.

I just remembered the other day something that happened to me in the '70's. I had a Pontiac station wagon with a 455 in it. One day I took off the radiator cap and it was like a pink milkshake in there. Long story short, the transmission cooler inside the radiator fell off and the transmission fluid was pumping into the radiator and the coolant was in turn getting sucked into the transmission.:eek:

I tried to save the transmission by repeatedly flushing it after I put a separate cooler on it, but a short time later it started slipping really bad. Had to have the transmission replaced. One more reason I don't like to use the radiator as a cooler for the transmission.

Don

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpelli

You can just use an external trans cooler. Most radiator trans coolers are located in the bottom of the radiator. You can mount the trans cooler under the car as long as it's in the air flow. I use the double pass heat sink type coolers.

---

+1, that is what I am using also.

Thank You Jpelli, Skids, Denny, Don & Stu. So I'll just take the large front tubes off of the front of the radiator. Then the radiator will go further into the Grill Shell & give me more room. I'll then get a trans temp gauge to check the temperature..... Thanks again, Bill

I run the stacked plate type, and a fan if I think there may be an air flow problem. Haven't had any problems yet.....

Hi Bill, I also use a double pass heat sink type cooler (no trans cooling in my PRC radiator) plus I also use a Derale remote tranny cooler with a electric fan on a temp sensor switch. This was done for just piece of mind so I would have no worries about heat claiming my turbo 400's demise. Old adage is "better safe than sorry" and trouble free hot rodding is so much better than being stuck along side the road in the middle of now where.

...Thanks Dave & Styling! ;) have a great day! Bill

This is what I will be running, a 24" double pass and is similar, tho 2x longer, to what I've run before plus the 1 quart larger aluminum pan. I've added 2 quarts total oil with the cooler and pan

IC2's post triggered my memory, in addition to the double pass heat sink cooler I am also using one of these: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Together they completely solved any trans cooling issues I was having.

Pat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stu Cool

IC2's post triggered my memory, in addition to the double pass heat sink cooler I am also using one of these: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Together they completely solved any trans cooling issues I was having.

Pat

---

Unfortunately - this was my first choice, but made of "unobtanium" for a Ford C4 or C6. So.....an aluminum 1 qt deeper had to suffice.

Dave,

Do you think that would work with a 700/R4? They seem to generate a lot of heat.

Right now, I have a dropped pan with cooling tubes and a cooling coil in front of the radiator. I have a switch on my temp gauge so I can read either water temp or trans fluid temp in the pan. Right now, my trans temp almost never even moves the temp gauge off the peg.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Dave,

Do you think that would work with a 700/R4? They seem to generate a lot of heat.

Right now, I have a dropped pan with cooling tubes and a cooling coil in front of the radiator. I have a switch on my temp gauge so I can read either water temp or trans fluid temp in the pan. Right now, my trans temp almost never even moves the temp gauge off the peg.

---

Almost sounds like the trans is running too cool - if that's possible. But - have you really run the car in the heat of summer yet and in a line of traffic??

Jack, I have a 4L60E which is the electric (E) version of the 700R4. I was having problems with the tranny getting hot pulling long hills going over the Sierra Nevada. With the dual pass tube cooler and the Derale pan my problems have disappeared. I also have made it a practice to pull it down to 3rd (1-1) when I come to the long steep hills and that may be part of the solution as well. I don't have a gauge on mine, but it was definitly suffering from heat problems before I made the changes. It would shift extra hard and stop shifting into OD altogether. I was afraid I had fried it, but once it cooled off it was OK and has worked well for several thousand miles since.

Pat

Pat,

I run mine mostly in 3rd, because most of my trips are short an local. When it's in 4th, running at speed, it's locked up (either automatically or manually with my switch).

Dave,

I've had a few delays, and some time in traffic, but none of the park n' idle for 10-miles stuff yet. We'll see as this summer progresses. Last summer, I was mostly suffering tune-up woes, and didn't drive a lot.

Related question: I have a tranny cooler built into my radiator and a buddy suggested running an additional cooler on its way back to the tranny. Should I use the radiator connections at all. I am worried about the radiator temp and the tranny temp. What is the right balance? Thanks

Many Schools of Thought on this subject. Some advocate using only the one in the radiator (their logic is that if Detroit does it there must be a reason) some say that the radiator cooler actually does no cooling to speak of but is used to keep the transmission fluid warm enough. Others say "why would you want to run hot fluid into a radiator, further diminishing the radiators ability to cool the engine." And still others say to run BOTH an external cooler and the one in the radiator. Take your pick. :confused: :)

For the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, I do not like to run the tranny fluid into the radiator and only use a double pass external cooler. Am I right or wrong? Who knows. But I have yet to have a heat related transmission failure in any car I have done this to. My Jeep truck has this setup and I have pulled trailers with way over the limits a few times to Daytona and other places, and there were never any problems.

I had a long conversation at Turkey Run with one of the guys from PRC radiators a few years ago, and he said that they do not like putting the transmission coolers in the radiator either, and he also suggested an external one.

Flip a coin. :LOL:

Don

thats why i put mine in the trunk with a fan on top of the cooler and a small hole cut next to and below the cooler to allow for air circulation when it needs to warm up i leave the fan off and when its warm turn it on :D

By putting a transmission cooler in the bottom of the radiator you are potentially introducing even more heat into something that is already hot - the ATF. The water returns to the top of the radiator with a temperature that could be as high as 250*, depending on the pressure cap. It is cooled during its' flow thru the radiator to the bottom tank and that cooled to (whatever temp is, I don't know) water that then surrounds the transmission cooler. Transmissions like ATF at 175* or less. Will that coolant temp in the bottom tank on a 99* day in South Florida do a good job? I like Jack's idea of a switch and monitoring the tranny's temp. I also like the idea on NOT introducing more temp in the ATF by the radiator cooler.

Here are my transmission coolers.
A skin effect radiator in front, 120 sq inches of cooling area . . .
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...oolersmall.jpg

And a DeRale trans pan.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...nsPansmall.jpg

One thing that will impact trans cooling is the stall speed of your converter.
It needs to be low enough to lock up at highway speeds.

Mine is a 2400 rpm stall, but it flashes to 2800 rpm.
Depending on engine size (mine is 462") the converter will stall at different rpms due to available torque.

This setup works pretty good and the only time the trans has gotten warm was on the slow, winding switchbacks going up into Sequoia National Park running in 2nd gear below stall speed.
A 20 minute cool-down did the trick and the rest of the way up the hill, no problems.

I understand the cast aluminum trans pans do as good as the DeRale vis a vis trans cooling.
I may use one of those on my 31 on 32 rails roadster, but am also thinking of using one of Summits small trans coolers with electric fan.
Only trouble I see with aluminum trans pans is they break and steel dents.
Probably a moot point since I've never dragged my trans pan.
The DeRale trans pan hangs down equal to the oil pan fwiw.

You won't know where you're at unless you have a transmission temperature gauge.
I prefer mechanical for their wide needle sweep and accuracy as well as reflecting changes right away.

I see questionable trans cooling setups quite often, no temp gauge and when I ask the owners how the trans does set up like that the answer is always, "no problem, cools great."

It's obvious they don't know and I don't argue with them, but a trans failure is surely in the future of some of the creations I see....

First of all, Denny, what I was referring to, of course, is a non-stock engine, suffering with a radiator that is marginal for the engine, then adding the heat of a transmission. They will both suffer and I will not knowingly allow that to happen to either. I have a big radiator for this engine and really an oversize cooler for my transmission. Since it had completely slipped my mind to add a temp sensor to the transmission and with Jack's saying he uses the same gauge, will install a sensor in-line as soon as I can figure out the plumbing changes. C9 - while I do like mechanical gauges for most reliability will be using strictly electrical units on this car.

I am all to well aware of grounding oil pans - I happened to be rummaging around my 'trophies' a couple of days ago and came across the pan from my last 351W - with an oops that wept oil. I replaced that pan. The C4 pan that was on the trans behind it was worse but it of much heavier steel. Like I said above, I would have liked a DeRale pan but they don't do a C4/C6 though it doesn't appear to difficult to do my own - (and with how many tube welds(??).... The aluminum version is a bit lower then I would like but it isn't lower then the engine pan

okay, I think I made sense of all this. Please check my work. I have a 454 TBI engine out of a 92 Suburban; it is now in a 37 Cadillac Sedan. I live in very hot AZ and therefore don't have any need to warm up my transmission fluid. So I should run a transmission cooler and not use the cooler in the radiator at all. Ideally I should use a tranny cooler with a fan that I can switch on and off and I should get a gauge to monitor the tranny fluid temperature.

In order to keep a tranny cooler away from the exhaust I was thinking of mounting it under the front fender. Good or Bad idea??

Thanks for all the insight.

Denny,

Isn't 180 a pretty high temp for the fan to turn on?

This thread is a few months old but I ran into a new but related problem. My Brookville frame is pretty narrow and now I have the mufflers installed so I am installing the fuel line along the right outside frame rail hidden under the Model running board apron. So far so good EXCEPT I already have a fin type external trans cooler on that outside of the rail. First it is not clear to me that the air flow will be good enough there, although the shape of the '29 front fender may act as a large scoop? I discovered I do have fittings in the radiator but for reasons several of you have discussed above I prefer not to plumb the transmission cooler to the bottom part of the radiator when the small radiator may be marginal for the engine coolent. So what I have now is the fuel line coming up to the front alongside the 24" double pass fin-type external cooler. Another problem is that there is a 60" section of fuel line which is unsupported under the apron which will probably vibrate. So I put a small zig-zag into both ends of the fuel line to offset it to the outside about two inches away from the 24" trans cooler and I covered it with a sleeve of 3/4" heater tube to damp vibration and maybe insulate the fuel line from the trans cooler. I also have another double pass trans cooler like the one IC2 shows above. Does anyone know whether the fin type or the solid aluminum type cools better? I also have a steel DeRalle tube trans pan as shown above but it is clearly the lowest part of the underside of my car with barely 3" of clearance. I like the idea that steel will dent as compared to a cracked aluminum trans pan but I would like to go back to the stock pan to get more ground clearance. Any comments on whether the fuel line will pick up much heat from the trans cooler and whether the rubber hose sleeve gives any insulation effect? I have thought of adding an additional sleeve of aluminum over the hose to reflect heat rather than absorb it by the black rubber hose. Maybe what I should do is wrap wrinkled aluminum foil around the fuel line to reflect heat? I am looking into a gauge for the trans fluid temp.; sounds like a good idea. Comments?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

As I posted some time ago in another thread, here is my 700R4 transmission cooling problem: First, when you are driving down the road, you probably will not have a cooling problem. In overdrive, the converter is locked up so there is not much heat being generated. Where the cooling problem will show is at slow speeds....putt-putting around the fairgrounds, etc.

I did the following steps with my 350 Chevy/700R4 with no radiator trans lines:
1. First used a flat Derale cooler with a fan mounted horizontally over the rear axle. Blew the air downward. Long pulls in lower gears made trans temp go to 260 deg.
2. Added finned aluminum cooler (long skinny tube with fins) outside of frame rail. Zero change.
3. Added high velocity boat bilge fan blowing down tube cooler. Zero change
4. Moved Derale cooler from under car to above rear tire (this is a 4500 lb jeep). Helped some but long pulls still got hot.
5. Removed bilge fan. No change
6. Changed to Torco synthetic fluid...figured if it was going to get hot, then I should use a fluid that would take the heat. This helped probably 30 degrees on the long pulls. I am at 11 quarts in the system right now.

As soon as I quit the slow pulls (unlocked converter), the temperature falls to under 200.

From what I can tell, you cannot predict the performance of a system by asking other people...it is a personal thing that is related to the air flow on your car...it's not like a radiator cooler....the airflow under the car is so different between cars that it is mostly unpredictable. From what I found, you need to experiment with a transmission temperature gauge installed. I highly recommend the synthetic fluid...costly but apparently effective.

By the way, the trans pan with the little tubes works at speed when there is air going thru the tubes but at slow speeds, there is not enough air mass being presented for it to do much.

mike in tucson

the rubber hose will help to keep the fuel from cooking off.

If you are on a budget look at the external cooler from 90s Ford F and E series.

You can also install a switch to lock it up in any gear.

I am kind of discouraged about this since I really do not like the external cooler next to the fuel line even with the rubber hose shield. I am considering using the bottom of the radiator after all with the needed plumbing but down on the floor again gave me the usual sinus infection. I had swept the garage out pretty well when the car was in the muffler shop and thought I had solved the dust problem, but here I go again needing a few days off! Thanks for the suggested Ford external cooler.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Thanks Robot/Mike, Nothing like actual data! Well I pulled the transmission cooler off the side of the frame and am having adventures in plumbing the lines to the radiator. As Henry Rifle mentioned before, I want some sort of flex line between the transmission and the hard lines to the radiator. The tech guy at Walker Radiators says I only need a 5/16" hard line to the radiator and I found some right angle 1/8" pipe thread fittings at NAPA (only two tries!) so I can route the tubing down away from the fan. Even though the fan is higher with the Zip water pump there is still not a lot of clearance down by the crossmember so I have to route the tubing down a way and then across through the tight area by the fuel pump. Then I have found after three tries a combination of fittings to put a short length of rubbercoated braided hose from the transmission to the inside of the frame rail to privide some flexing between the drive line and the frame. The hard line will still have to pass by the down pipe of the headers but using the trans cooler in the Walker Cobra radiator I can now install the fuel line along the outside of the frame rail away from the heat of the cooler and I can use the mounting holes I made for the cooler to hold the fuel line. Everything takes three tries for me but the Walker Tech guy says the water cooler at the bottom of the radiator should be enough cooling if I don't intend to do any towing. Now for the question. I want to install a B&M #80226 transmission temperature gauge as several of you have suggested. It does seem that the only way I can tell if the cooling is OK is with a gauge but the installation requires a non-flare joint on each end of a T-fixture for the thermocouple. Do those bead-type joints really seal OK without a flare? Should I cut the tubing at a slight angle to let fluid reach the thermocouple but push the tubing all the way in to make butt contact? I may be worrying too much but the joints are really in a tight spot between the frame rail and the starter solenoid so I don/t want to be messing with wrenches in that tight space later on if there is a leak!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Hey, any body out there have a picture showing how the lines are set up from the transmission to the cooler in a radiator?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I am going today I am working on hooking up the 700R4. I saw a few heat sink coolers here in Ohio's Brookgate. It seems a group of Model A Rat Rodders were all sold on it. No temp gauges though so how they know its okay is "trans is shifting okay.' Both Gear Star and local trans shop recommend aux cooler in front of radiator. Definitely do NOT connect to the built in radiator cooling system. 700R4 does run hotter I think so a temp gauge will be worked into the line.

Thanks DennyW. Positions 2 and 3 are no good for me since it is really tight in there. After much messing around and wasting several lengths of 5/16" tubing I finally got two lines from the trans though short rubber-coated-braid flex lines to the bottom of the radiator. I have already learned from several other calls to various Tech guys that they do not always know the right answer so I am now worried about overheating. I have both the long finned aluminum cooler and a two-pass cross-finned cooler but no good place to put it. I also have one of those external coolers which can clog up which Henry Rifle gave to me. I did not use it because of a warning that it can clog and then no fluid can go to the trans. There is a problem here because Virginia requires a front license plate which blocks air in the front, although maybe I can put it low on the bumper. Then an idea might be to put it on the transverse plate on the pan at the bottom of the radiator as I originally planned (see picture) but put it in PARALLEL with the radiator cooler. That way if the plate cooler plugs up I will still get some fluid through the bottom of the radiator. That is more work and requires two T-joints with those bead expansion seals which I don't trust, but I had to use one on the fuel line and it got pretty tight when I pulled down on the sealer nut so maybe two more T-joints with four bead seals will be OK if I tighten them really good. The picture is how I originally plaqnned to use the plated cooler before I learned that they can clog up easily. I may have to mount the license plate off-center so air can get to the trans cooler. The Bebops 'glass body has a stiffener below the radiator between the one-piece fenders which is not on the stock Model A body and is probably a good air scoop and maybe a place for mounting an external cooler. At least the cooler is chrome plated and adds flash rather than just being drab black but of course cooling would be better with a dull black surface. The homemade tube between the frame horns that C9X uses on his '32 successfully is also a possibility as an added cooler in parallel to the cooler in the bottom of the radiator. The strong point of the device C9X uses is that the internal volume of the fluid is pretty large, maybe a pint which gives it more time to cool. In my case the massive stock bumpers would give some protection to the tube cooler.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I put a temp sensor in my 700R4 pan and have a SPDT switch in front of my water temp gauge. I use a SPDT switch to choose trans temp or engine coolant temp. I also installed a SPST switch to lock up the converter in any gear.

A 700R4 runs hottest in overdrive, and you can burn one up in minutes. I put a large cooler in front of my radiator, and I never have a temp problem.

Henry Rifle/Jack, Thanks for the idea. I bought a B&W temp sensor and gauge but the gauge is a very poor match for the other gauges in my dash. A SPDT switch is a way I can use my in-dash temp gauge to monitor the trans temp and anyway I am just about out of space in the dash for another gauge in the '32 replica. I am not happy about inserting a T-joint in the trans fluid line with those copper bead seals. Do people generally find them to seal well? Can you say more about how you put the sensor in the trans pan? Just drill a hole and use appropriate washer seal? That way I would not need to mess with the 5/16" lines.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Henry Rifle/Jack, Thanks for the idea. I bought a B&W temp sensor and gauge but the gauge is a very poor match for the other gauges in my dash. A SPDT switch is a way I can use my in-dash temp gauge to monitor the trans temp and anyway I am just about out of space in the dash for another gauge in the '32 replica. I am not happy about inserting a T-joint in the trans fluid line with those copper bead seals. Do people generally find them to seal well?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

---

Don,
Consider putting the temp sender directly into the pan - especially if you have an aluminum trans pan. Unfortunately you do have to drop the ATF out of the transmission, drop the pan, then drill and tap it for the sender. Mine is an aluminum 1 extra quart piece that I may be exchanging for a stamped steel version simply because it hangs too low so will need to weld in a bung. The fluid temp may not be as accurate as a sender in a cooler line but it will at least give me a close enough reading.

This was done when Jack noted about a year ago what he had done

Don,

If you have a trans pan with a drain plug, you can use a bushing and mount the temp sensor in the drain plug hole. If there's no drain hole, you can buy a threaded bulkhead fitting at Pep Boys with a nut and a couple of sealing washers. Of course, you'd have to remove the pan to install it.

Putting a tee in the outlet line of the trans is a decent idea if you have room. I tried that, and it was a mess - no room, plus Gibbon's idea of a trans tunnel. However, trans pressures are low enough (around 160 PSI, if I remember correctly) that even a brass fitting will work OK. If you do want to install a sensor in the outlet line and are uncomfortable with brass, a Swagelok fitting would work.

Also, I did not mount my front license plate. It's in a pocket in the back of the seat. I've been through two safety inspections, and driven all around VA Beach with no problem.

If I get stopped, my first ploy is "They didn't have front plates in '34, so neither do I." If that doesn't work, I'll wing it from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

I am not happy about inserting a T-joint in the trans fluid line with those copper bead seals. Do people generally find them to seal well? That way I would not need to mess with the 5/16" lines.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

---

Don. Are you referring to a compression fitting when you say a "Bead Seal" ???

34_40, I guess that is what you call it. It is a cap-nut over a threaded sleeve with a copper bead on the tubing. I have one on my fuel line where it goes into the pump on the low pressure inlet side and I put the fitting into my vise and got a good tight wrench fit on it. I suppose I could take the trans fluid line out of the car and get it into the vise for a nice tight fit but I would not trust the seal on a situation with two wrenches turning in opposite directions while in the confined space of the engine bay. Tapping the trans pan for the temp sensor seems like a good idea at the moment. I called the "Eat My Shift" guy from whom I bought the 700R4 and he recommended Dextron-3 Mercon or better Royal Purple and he thought the situation would be OK for weekend travels with just the radiator cooler, the Derale pan and a high end fluid but he did highly recommend a temp gauge. The Derale pan is indeed the lowest point under my car and speed bumps may be a problem but it is steel and tough enough to dent rather than crack so I think the extra volume of the fluid and some help from the air tubes will hopefully be adequate for "touring". Henry Rifle's SPDT switch is a good idea and solves the problem of my already crowded array of dash gauges and switches. One question that might occur is whether the 12V analog signal from the water temp sensor is in the same range as a 12V trans fluid sensor using the same gauge?

IC2, thanks for the confirmation on the trans pan mount. I would think that location would actually be more accurate for the temp of the fluid.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder