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Thread: Coil over musings------
          
   
   

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  1. #1
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Coil over musings------

     



    Thinking about going back to my circle burner roots and running a set of 5" stroke coilovers on the rear end with them inverted to lower the unsprung weight.......?????

    And the strange question of the day; With a triangulated 4 bar, vertical mounted coilovers, and Watts linkage to keep everybody centered ,do the coilovers know or care if they are installed on the front or rear of the housing?????????
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    jerry clayton's Avatar
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    the coilovers don't know, thats why YOU must compisate for the spring / shock rates---behind the axle needs less spring rate because the arm is longer--shock valving similar deal

    also leaning them effects same thing

    I try to build my stuff where the spring/shocks are directly over axle so only varient is the lean angle---

  3. #3
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerry clayton View Post
    the coilovers don't know, thats why YOU must compisate for the spring / shock rates---behind the axle needs less spring rate because the arm is longer--shock valving similar deal

    also leaning them effects same thing

    I try to build my stuff where the spring/shocks are directly over axle so only varient is the lean angle---
    On the old late model, we ran the left side shock on top of the axle and the right side shock on the control arm ahead of the rear end housing....too bad the street isn't all left turn, that works great!!!!!

    This is for the 'maro...thinking about running the Pro large threaded body shocks, 5" travel, inverted with 3-5 valving.... Working on that leverage deal, Jerry, with the coilovers on the front and the lighter valving on the rebound side my reasoning is to hook up the rear good on acceleration and still maintian good control in turns with a 5 valve on the jounce side.....am I thinking right, or just confused again???????

    This is the shock I plan on using, plus the matching coilover kit.
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    Last edited by Dave Severson; 09-10-2009 at 07:52 PM. Reason: added pic
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  4. #4
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evolvo View Post
    Okay, now I'm confused. I thought a triangulated 4 bar meant you didn't need the watts link. That the triangles formed by the left and right upper bars kept everything centered. What am I missing.
    You're not missing anything....A triangulated 4 bar doesn't really need a lateral stabilizer....but, when you really start pounding on a chassis, as I'm inclined to do, a Watt's linkage will prevent any lateral movement. Whether using heim ends or urethene bushings, there is still a bit of lateral movement when cornering...though minimal...a Watt's linkage will stop it... In very hard cornering, just the give in the bushings can be enough to upset the "load" on the chassis... Normal driving, not required! I just tend to get a bit carried away sometimes...
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  5. #5
    34_40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Severson View Post
    You're not missing anything....A triangulated 4 bar doesn't really need a lateral stabilizer....but, when you really start pounding on a chassis, as I'm inclined to do, a Watt's linkage will prevent any lateral movement. Whether using heim ends or urethene bushings, there is still a bit of lateral movement when cornering...though minimal...a Watt's linkage will stop it... In very hard cornering, just the give in the bushings can be enough to upset the "load" on the chassis... Normal driving, not required! I just tend to get a bit carried away sometimes...
    And won't the Watts Link cause a bind in it's travel? Won't there be a conflict in the arcs of travel with the top links?

  6. #6
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Nope, the arcs of travel are on different plains...though the Watts linkage has to have heim ends to allow for the minor (1 or 2 degrees) of pinion angle change....With the adjustable front mount points on the upper and lower bars, I should (on paper I can) move the pinion angle to whatever I want...

    My main "concern", and the point of the post is moving the coilovers from behind the rear end to in front of the housing.... Trying to make the shock assist in both the hook of the tires, with valving changes on the shock, and the anti-squat on the rear end with the bar angles and spring rates.... It all looks good on paper when I plot it out, should be interesting, at the least, in a real world application..... Mostly I think I'm just tired of the same old conventional rear bar set-up and trying to make it do some other things I might want it to do.... Guess I've just been watching too many of the late model circle burners with their unique coilover and bar placenment and trying to tame some of that down for a street application.... But then my version of "street" is probably a bit different from most!!!!!!!!
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  7. #7
    34_40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Severson View Post
    Nope, the arcs of travel are on different plains...though the Watts linkage has to have heim ends to allow for the minor (1 or 2 degrees) of pinion angle change....With the adjustable front mount points on the upper and lower bars, I should (on paper I can) move the pinion angle to whatever I want...

    My main "concern", and the point of the post is moving the coilovers from behind the rear end to in front of the housing.... Mostly I think I'm just tired of the same old conventional rear bar set-up and trying to make it do some other things I might want it to do.... But then my version of "street" is probably a bit different from most!!!!!!!!
    I'll mull over the arc of travel for now. I guess with 5 inch travel you may get away with it! How about a staggered shock arrangement? 1 in front and 1 to the rear of the axle. If I remember right, back in the early 70's the big 3 (Don't remember who did it first) figured out that staggering the shocks was a great (CHEAP) way to control wrap-up and axle torque. Even if it didn't work that great in the maro - it would be different!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 34_40 View Post
    I'll mull over the arc of travel for now. I guess with 5 inch travel you may get away with it! How about a staggered shock arrangement? 1 in front and 1 to the rear of the axle. If I remember right, back in the early 70's the big 3 (Don't remember who did it first) figured out that staggering the shocks was a great (CHEAP) way to control wrap-up and axle torque. Even if it didn't work that great in the maro - it would be different!
    They did that on leaf spring cars to help control spring wrap up.
    Before the advent of UMP modifieds running birdcage setups on their rear axles as they do now,we use to see a lot of staggerd shock setups with the left side spring and slider on the front side and the shock on the back side and vise versa on the right side. Don't know for sure what their doing nowdays other than looking like their gonna turn over,just like the Latemodels.

  9. #9
    34_40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HWORRELL View Post
    They did that on leaf spring cars to help control spring wrap up.
    Before the advent of UMP modifieds running birdcage setups on their rear axles as they do now,we use to see a lot of staggerd shock setups with the left side spring and slider on the front side and the shock on the back side and vise versa on the right side. Don't know for sure what their doing nowdays other than looking like their gonna turn over,just like the Latemodels.
    Yep, that's what I said! Must be an echo !! It would be different to see a coil over setup arranged like this. Not sure how useful tho??

  10. #10
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Staggered shocks on the leaf spring 70's cars were a patch job for the antique leaf spring arrangement....Even then, they only worked about half ways decent... I've always been able to adjust the coilovers' valving enough to preclude the staggered shock patch... The one thing I really like about the forward mount coilover idea is (hopefully) being able to play with the rear end body lift or squat and using the bar angles and their instant center to control the hook.... My hope is to separate the two actions, and not have to comprimise either shock valving or bar angles to try to compensate for both hook and squat.... Probably none of this makes sense in writing, but I can "see" what I want the car to do!!!!!!
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  11. #11
    Dave Severson is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Just an update... Talked to the guys at Pro Shocks today... They make a coilover specifically for drag racing, 5" or 7" travel with many options on how you want it set up..... According to them, I should be running a 5" travel shock mounted at 20 degress with a 110 pound spring and 4-6 valving.... They custom build and dyno the shocks for a specific application, so I'll need to get the rest of the suspension put together and come up with the weights on the car.... Tech people were very helpful and seemed to be very knowledgeable on their products.... Also found out they build a Hot Rod and Street Rod coilover using the same methods!!!! Good to hear we're not stuck with the same out of the box, might work or not coilovers!!!!! A bit more spendy, but quality usually is......
    Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, Live for Today!
    Carroll Shelby

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