I think I have a BIG problem

Chevy Gen 1 with Fast Burn heads, hydraulic roller cam, roller rockers. With #1 at top dead center and the rockers adjusted to zero lash, I can compress the exhaust lifter internal plunger spring by pushing down on the rocker. I cannot do that on the intake lifter. It's solid as a rock. I checked every other lifter in the motor, and all have some free play. To confirm, I took the rocker arms completely off, and pushed down on the exhaust pushrod and get the play I expect, but not on the intake side.

I think the internals of the lifter are toast. Opinions?

https://youtu.be/1ZT29cSy8xw

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Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

I think the internals of the lifter are toast. Opinions?

https://youtu.be/1ZT29cSy8xw

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I'd agree with you Jack, and assume that you're chasing a lifter "tick" or rough running condition?

Roger, I suddenly got a lot of clatter and a miss, so I pulled both valve covers and ran the lifters again. That's when I ran into this on #1 cylinder. I did note that at TDC with no rockers installed, both pushrods were at the same lift.

Denny, I did put significant pressure on it, but got no movement at all. I guess I'll have to pull it to check, but on this car, it's a boatload of work. No choice at this point, though.

Attachment 68542

Attachment 68543

Jack,
I'd be tempted to put 1/2 can of SeaFoam in the crankcase and take it out for a drive, keeping the rpm's up to see if maybe that one lifter will flush out. I would not be looking forward to pulling that intake, either....

Both pushrods will be at the same lift even when the cylinder is not on the compression stroke

You may have lost galley plug at end of that lifter galley and hence lost oil presure to to lifters resulting in that condition

can you see if the dogbone is holding the lifters in alignment??????

And what did that spark plug look like?

Jerry,

Both pushrods will be at the same lift even when the cylinder is not on the compression stroke

Nope. When the piston is on the intake, the exhaust pushrod will be higher, since that valve is closed.

You may have lost galley plug at end of that lifter galley and hence lost oil pressure to lifters resulting in that condition.

Good thought, but I didn’t mention that I had 50 psi of oil pressure. However, I did mention that all the other lifters had some travel when at TDC.

Can you see if the dogbone is holding the lifters in alignment?

Nope. No way with these heads without pulling the intake.

And what did that spark plug look like?

Normal. I didn’t drive it very far after I had the problem.

Jack-you got it wrong---------when a valve is closed, the pushrod will be lower

And if you are at top dead center on the compression stroke, both valves closed and push rods down low(no cam lift) and if on top dead center on the overlap (exhaust stroke changing to intake) both valves will be open and the pushrods raised-------they should be equal(or very close) as this is the OVERLAP and how many cams are timed by using two equal length flat tappets and a straight edge across them------

Also, your problem may be associated with roller failure loosing bearing pins which will give you some play----------

Please elaborate on the straight edge cam timing technique

Allright---------when doing lots of engine stuff at races, etc and you want to change cams, or just the timing of them----in the cylinder that is 180 opsitite of #1---( in chev/mopar firing order it will be #6)you put two pieces of round stock that is lifter diameter and exactly same length into the 2 tappet bosses--with a straight edge across the tops you can determine when the cam lobes are exactly same rise and that will equal exact split valve timing centerline------at that point set the crank back from tdc to advance cam timing and forward from tdc to retard cam timing----it is helpful to have a cam drive like a Jessel belt or Donovan etc gear drive to make easy the adjustments


over the years of racing--I've had several cams ground that had the exact same base circle so I could quickly change cams without having to adjust the valve gap clearance

Jerry, you're right on the push rod position. I was very, very tired and frustrated.

Denny, the engine had been sitting for several weeks, since right after I noticed the problem. I was just 100 yards up the street, and turned right around. Right away, I put it up on jack stands and took care of other problems, such as a bad trans output seal and a leaky transmission oil pan. I'm going to take a more detailed look at it tomorrow.

I'm still dog tired, BTW. Thanks, guys.

Denny, it's tomorrow. I did what you suggested about leaving the valve open. No luck. Still frozen. I've got it about 3/4 torn down already. Film at eleven . . . or whenever I get the urge.

I removed the top half of the motor in a couple of hours this morning and pulled #1 I & E roller lifters. The exhaust lifter would compress with finger pressure. The intake was dead stuck. I couldn't move it at all. Totally different 'feel' than the exhaust.

I removed the retaining clip, disassembled the lifter and couldn't see any dirt or anything else wrong. Then, I completely cleaned it with solvent. When I reassembled it, it seemed to work OK. I'll probably replace it anyhow.

BTW, as soon as I took this photo, I plugged the I & E exhaust ports and covered the galley completely to keep the junk out.

Cleanup and reassembly will take a bit longer.

Attachment 68552

So no pushrod guide plates----are the rockers those that straddle the valve tip?????
Didn't those fastburn heads have bigger valves and some offset location??? If so you may have a serious geometry problem----

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

So no pushrod guide plates----are the rockers those that straddle the valve tip?????
Didn't those fastburn heads have bigger valves and some offset location??? If so you may have a serious geometry problem----

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Jerry, The rockers do straddle the valve tip, and there is NO geometry problem. I didn't build or modify this. I bought it as a Fastburn crate motor.

Denny, they are absolutely dead center left to right. Of course, as the valves lift and fall, the roller does sweep across the top of the valve. However, I have checked them through several full cycles, and sweep about the same amount from center each way.

Jack do you know if the valve locations are offset??? It is common in sbc performance heads to put larger valves in they move the exhaust valve over so that they can also move intake valve away from edge of chamber---------Glad your sure that you don't have a geometry problem----

Whose/what company rockers are on engine and what ratio????
I've seen a few cases of the fast burn heads having valve seat ring get loose because of temp differance in aluminum head and as it moved down it holds valve open some creating an odd clattering noise before it eventauly creating a mess in the cylinder with a dropped valve, pieces then getting into intake and over to other cylinders-------

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Jack do you know if the valve locations are offset??? It is common in sbc performance heads to put larger valves in they move the exhaust valve over so that they can also move intake valve away from edge of chamber---------Glad your sure that you don't have a geometry problem----

Whose/what company rockers are on engine and what ratio????
I've seen a few cases of the fast burn heads having valve seat ring get loose because of temp differance in aluminum head and as it moved down it holds valve open some creating an odd clattering noise before it eventauly creating a mess in the cylinder with a dropped valve, pieces then getting into intake and over to other cylinders-------

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Jerry, It's ALL Chevy parts. The heads are standard Fastburn. The cam is an upgrade cam/kit made by General Motors Performance Products (GMPP) specifically for this engine, as well as the ZZ4. As you probably know, the Fastburn 385 is simply a ZZ4 short block with Fastburn heads. Here's some info from the specs.

THE FAST BURN 385 USES THE ZZ4 SHORT BLOCK AND ADS THE FAST BURN ALUMINUM CYLINDER HEADS FOR 385 HP. IT USES STAMPED STEEL ROCKER ARMS AND THE ZZ4 CAMSHAFT.

430 HORSEPOWER AT 6000 RPM IS ACHIEVABLE BY ADDING THE HOT CAM AND 1.6 RATIO SELF ALIGNING ROCKER ARMS.

The engine and the camshaft upgrade came straight from the GMPP catalog. These are the rockers: Rocker Arms, Stud Mount, Full Roller, Aluminum, 1.6 Ratio, Fits 3/8 in. Stud, Chevy 1987-99, 5.0, 5.7L.

The camshaft specs are: Duration at lash point in degrees (intake/exhaust) is 279/287; duration at .050" tappet lift (intake/exhaust) is 218/228; maximum lift with 1.6 rocker ratio (intake/exhaust) is 525/525. Valve lash is zero/zero and lobe centerline is 112 degrees.

As I have said several times, this was a crate engine that I picked up in Kansas City, and the camshaft/lifters were recommended by many builders at the time as a solid upgrade. Standard stuff for the day .

Jack do you want a little precaution about putting it back together or do you want to repeat your problem again----

I have used the fast burn heads and theres a few problems-------if you want me to offer some guidance about the problems I'm willing to help----otherwise, I hope your CRATE engine had free shipping

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Jack do you want a little precaution about putting it back together or do you want to repeat your problem again----

I have used the fast burn heads and theres a few problems-------if you want me to offer some guidance about the problems I'm willing to help----otherwise, I hope your CRATE engine had free shipping

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Sure, I'm open to anything. BTW, I picked up the motor myself. No shipping charges.

http://www.grumpysperformance.com/sbcoilh5a.jpg

in case this works-just to show how complicated the simple oil flow passages are in the back of a sbc

and guess where the oil pressure guage goes and how complicated it is to get oil to front of lifter gallies

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

http://www.grumpysperformance.com/sbcoilh5a.jpg
in case this works-just to show how complicated the simple oil flow passages are in the back of a sbc and guess where the oil pressure guage goes and how complicated it is to get oil to front of lifter gallies

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I don't have to guess. I know that these are the two places on my block to pick up oil pressure, and I know that they are likely to show the highest pressure. If you're going to mention another tap above the timing cover just to the left side, my block doesn't have one.

This motor has very, very few miles on it, and it appears pretty obvious to me that one lifter just caught a bit of gunk.

Attachment 68564

OK ------hope you have solved the problem, and it all goes back together well===

I do wish to know whose rocker arms you have as GM didn't make them and I'd like to see the bottom side where they straggle the valve tips and the underneath radius that is closest to the spring.

Drove threw the Girard, Virden,Auburn area the other day on the way back north from the St Louis NHRA drag race---------now getting ready for possible trip to Bakersfield for the Calif Hot Rod Reunion

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

OK ------hope you have solved the problem, and it all goes back together well===
I do wish to know whose rocker arms you have as GM didn't make them and I'd like to see the bottom side where they straggle the valve tips and the underneath radius that is closest to the spring.

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Photos as requested. Who knows who makes them? Chevy contracts all kinds of components. The mfg. code on the part number says 'Chevrolet Performance,' and they have a Bowtie stamp on the tip above the roller. I think you can see that they would provide better alignment than the stamped rockers with the "bumps" on them.

Attachment 68566

The radius clears the valve spring retainer at full lift. Not even close.

Attachment 68567

Thanks for the photos Jack-We see so many issues with the various combos out there---------
Are you planning on just replacing the one lifter or the whole set of 16?

Lots of bean dust from all the combines down home

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Thanks for the photos Jack-We see so many issues with the various combos out there---------
Are you planning on just replacing the one lifter or the whole set of 16?
Lots of bean dust from all the combines down home

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I'm replacing only the one on the #1 cylinder. When I disassembled the 'problem' lifter, I found a tiny bit of gunk that jammed it. After I cleaned it, it seemed to work fine, but I'm replacing it anyhow. Replacing them all doesn't make sense.

And-when was last time you were in central Illinois at harvest time???

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

And-when was last time you were in central Illinois at harvest time???

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Years ago, and I'm not there any more. The car has never been there.

Sorry Jack-I thought you might have smiled at comment about it???????

Did you get the lifter changed and back together ???

Good thread just reading now and want to know if the problem is fixed!

Plans have changed -was going through the Dallas area (NHRA) this weekend on way to Bakersfield and was going to try to hook up with you and help you solve your problem but plans have changed------Bakersfield is off until March Meet so if you still have a problem maybe I can stop by---------

I'm getting it put back together, but being very careful and double/triple checking everything. I haven't fired it yet, but will do so in a week or two. I'm not in a rush.

Attachment 68616

Man, look at all that room in there! It gets old working on stuff that is half under firewalls and crammed from fender well to fender well. It looks like you're really close on it though.

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

Man, look at all that room in there! It gets old working on stuff that is half under firewalls and crammed from fender well to fender well. It looks like you're really close on it though.

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Ryan, I THOUGHT there was a lot of room in there until I had to mount the master cylinder on the firewall due to ground clearance, then add air conditioning and a trans cooler in a tight radiator shell where there was (almost) no room for either.

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Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Ryan, I THOUGHT there was a lot of room in there until I had to mount the master cylinder on the firewall due to ground clearance, then add air conditioning and a trans cooler in a tight radiator shell where there was (almost) no room for either.

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There seems to be tons of room and great, clear access on a hot rod, but for me it's never in the spot that I need it to be for whatever I'm trying to do at any given time.

I get it Jack. I know your pain. Try putting 1250lb inline 6 engines where small block chevies went. Ground clearance? How about any clearance? :LOL: Have a great weekend and hopefully you can get some good hot rod time in.

".......Man, look at all that room in there! ......"


Ryan you and I (and a lot of others) suffer from the same problem. A fear of open spaces :LOL:

I think the last couple of cars I had room in the engine compartment were the 58 Chevy Biscayne and the 65 Biscayne I had years ago. I stuffed small blocks in both of them and afterwards always thought they should have Big Blocks. :D



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