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  • 1 Post By rspears
  • 1 Post By techinspector1

Thread: Questions regarding an engine build I'm doing. I am new and learning as I go. 355 SBC
          
   
   

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  1. #1
    Steves1968 is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Questions regarding an engine build I'm doing. I am new and learning as I go. 355 SBC

     



    I would like to know how much horsepower I will expect to have after this engine is complete. 350 sbc .30 over, flat top hypereutectic pistons, HYD Voodoo 504/525 lift cam and lifters, new steel crank, flow tek aluminum heads. If there is more information needed just let me know, just a ball park would be great. Also I had a 700r4 built for a mild performance engine, was wondering the best rear end ratio to have. This is going in a 68 GMC step side for a street rod. Thanks

  2. #2
    rspears's Avatar
    rspears is offline CHR Member/Contributor Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Steve, I'll leave the HP question for others who are more experienced with calculating/estimating that value for you. On the rear gearing, that 700R4 has a 0.70 to one final drive (over drive) ratio, but it also has a first gear ratio of 3.06 to one which makes it a great choice for your truck. The gearing you'll want is going to depend on the rear tires you decide to run, and what you want from the truck. Use the formula Cruise RPM = (mph x Gear Ratio x 336 x OD Ratio)/Tire Diameter to run the numbers, and you can shift the variables around to figure what you want, like Gear Ratio = (Tire Diameter x Cruise RPM)/(mph x 336 x OD Ratio), run your numbers and then pick the closest available ratio that fits and re-run the numbers to get exact. My deuce roadster project has a 700r4, 31.7" tall tires, and with a 3.50 to one gear ratio will be cranking 1818 rpm at 70mph - a great cruise rpm for the 350 ZZ4 engine.

    Hope that helps!
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  3. #3
    techinspector1's Avatar
    techinspector1 is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steves1968 View Post
    I would like to know how much horsepower I will expect to have after this engine is complete. 350 sbc .30 over, flat top hypereutectic pistons, HYD Voodoo 504/525 lift cam and lifters, new steel crank, flow tek aluminum heads. If there is more information needed just let me know, just a ball park would be great. Also I had a 700r4 built for a mild performance engine, was wondering the best rear end ratio to have. This is going in a 68 GMC step side for a street rod. Thanks
    Hello Steve and welcome to the forum. My best advise is to STOP where you are and figure out your combination based on math and science. I'll pitch in to help you with my 60 years of hot rod experience and I'm certain the rest of the fellows on this board will do the same.

    For starters, let's look at flow numbers for the heads....

    Valve Lift .400" .500" .600"
    Intake 206 237 244
    Exhaust 165 177 187

    If these numbers are valid, these look like decent heads for a 355 street driver, although I might expect them to stall at around 5500 rpm's. In other words, the heads will probably lay down before the cam will.


    Let's look at the cam you have chosen....
    10120704 60104 2200 - 6400 .504"/.525" 233/241 276/284 110/106 Hyd/Hyd
    Hot street cam, likes 2800 converter, hirise
    type dual plane intake with 750 CFM
    carb, headers, 10:1 compression and
    3.73 gears. Likes up to 200 HP nitrous
    LSA/ICL: 110/106
    This cam will want more head than you have chosen. You will want to make arrangements for a way to provide more manifold vacuum than this cam will provide, for power brakes, like an electric pump or vacuum reservoir. If you have manual brakes, never mind.

    The 64cc combustion chambers and flat-top pistons will generate an approximate 10:1 static compression ratio, so you'll be OK there as far as matching the cam to the static compression ratio. Choose straight spark plugs in the heads for ease of fitting headers. Angle plug heads will make you tear your hair out trying to make headers fit properly.

    Now, here's the problem....
    Aluminum heads will not tolerate a steel shim head gasket, you must use a composition gasket such as a Fel-Pro 1003.
    When the block was produced at the Chevrolet plant, the block deck height was set at 9.025". That's the measurement from the centerline of the main bearing bore to the flat part of the deck where the heads bolt on. The block may be a little shorter or a little taller due to factory tolerances. Your job is to fit a stack of parts into the block that will result in the proper piston to deck height so that you can use a composition gasket and still maintain a tight squish/quench of 0.035" to 0.045".
    If the block is 9.025", you must choose a stack of parts (piston compression height, rod length and crank radius added together) that will fit into the block with the piston deck height (distance from the piston crown to the block deck with the piston at top dead center) equal to zero in order to use the composition gasket and create a tight squish/quench.
    Here's an illustration that shows piston deck height as "deck clearance".....
    http://www.matrixgarage.com/sites/de...s_image002.gif

    If the block is 9.025" and you choose a stack of parts that equals, for instance, 9.000", then the piston will be 0.025" down in the bore with the piston at top dead center. Then, when you use your 0.041" composition gasket, the squish/quench will be 0.066", too wide to be effective in preventing detonation. We need a squish/quench of 0.035" to 0.045" in order to prevent detonation on pump gas.

    Your crank radius is 1.740", your rod length is 5.700", so you will want to choose a piston with at least a 1.560" compression height to make your stack measure at least 9.000". A taller piston is even better and will allow you to cut the block less to get to zero piston deck height. Bottom line, you will have to have a machine shop cut the block decks to zero-deck whatever stack you end up with.

    I'm not being as fluent this morning as I usually am and hope that I have done more than just confuse you. This is where you make or break a motor build, so please ask questions until you fully understand what I'm saying here.

    You'll make more power with a high-rise, dual-plane intake manifold than any other type of manifold, although there are other members of this board who have found that they like a different type of manifold. It's just that I have seen too many dyno tests that show the high-rise, dual-plane type to make the most power. The manifold of choice is the Edelbrock Performer RPM. Not the Air Gap, which may present driveability problems in cooler weather, just the plain old RPM. This is a take-off from the design that Chevrolet used on the '67 to '69 Z-28 motor. Aftermarket companies such as Edelbrock, Holley and Weiand have copied that design and you may be able to find one of them used on craigslist, ebay or racing junk. Look for Edelbrock 7101, Holley 300-36 or Weiand 8016. If you want to buy new for a little less money than the 7101, Weiand has a current production model intake under part number 8150 that will do a good job.

    If I can find the time, I will run the combination on my Dyno-Sim and determine the power the motor will make, but in the meantime, you need to be addressing the zero-deck aspect of your build.

    Now, as far as rear gearing, you want to pay attention to the cruise rpm's of the cam. The cam you have chosen will want to cruise at over 3000 rpm's, so you will not be able to use an overdrive transmission with it for gas mileage. Install a set of 3.73 gears with 27"/28" tires, no overdrive and you're good to go. The idea of an overdrive transmission works great with the weenie factory cams, but when you install a hot cam like you're going to do, you have to make concessions on the gears or the truck will disappoint you. Not only will you not get any mileage with an overdrive trans, you will not make any power either because the cam is not ground to make power down low in the rpm range. Again, if you are looking for fuel mileage, drop the static compression ratio down to 8.5:1 to 9.0:1 and use a cam that has closer to 200 degrees intake duration, rather than the 233 degrees of intake duration with the cam you're planning on using.
    Here, for instance, are some different cruise rpm's for different intake duration cams, according to Crane Cams engineers....
    192 1600-2200
    204 2200-2600
    210 2400-2800
    216 2600-3000
    222 2700-3200
    226 3000-3400
    230 3400-3800
    234 3800-4200
    238 4200-4600

    If you're looking for power plus fuel mileage, then you need to be putting together a turbocharged or supercharged engine package using a mild cam. You cannot have both power and mileage in a naturally-aspirated package. Everything is a trade-off.

    And finally, flat tappet cams are ancient technology from the previous century. Metallurgy has changed as well as lubricating oil formulas, none of which is geared to allowing a flat tappet cam to work in today's environment. Please bring yourself up to speed with this tutorial....
    http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks

    .
    Last edited by techinspector1; 12-20-2015 at 01:04 PM.
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  4. #4
    Steves1968 is offline CHR Member Visit my Photo Gallery
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    Thanks rspears and Techinspector1, I've read the information you have provided and I appreciate your time toward this. As for the information on the decking that was a grey area initially for me since how I'm new to the knowledge of engine building. I bought this engine as a short block and purchased the heads from a local performance shop. The guy I bought the short block from told me it was "true deck", I do believe. With that being said, I assume that's anther term for zero deck?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steves1968 View Post
    Thanks rspears and Techinspector1, I've read the information you have provided and I appreciate your time toward this. As for the information on the decking that was a grey area initially for me since how I'm new to the knowledge of engine building. I bought this engine as a short block and purchased the heads from a local performance shop. The guy I bought the short block from told me it was "true deck", I do believe. With that being said, I assume that's anther term for zero deck?
    I have no idea what "true deck" means to the guy you purchased the short block from. It means nothing to me, except that maybe the block has been decked a little to make both decks flat from end to end. I'm urging you to cut the block decks to "zero deck", with the crown of the piston being even with the block deck with the piston at top dead center. You can check for zero deck at home with a steel rule and a set of feeler gauges. Stand the rule on edge across the bore about 1/4" from the cylinder wall, at the 9:00 O'Clock or 3:00 O'Clock position as you're standing at the side of the block. Checking at the Noon or 6:00 O'Clock position will allow the piston to rock back and forth on the wrist pin and give you a false reading. With the rule on edge, insert feeler gauges of different thicknesses until you get one that just barely slides between the underside of the rule and the piston crown. That will be the piston deck height. Make sure you have the piston at top dead center by rocking the crank back and forth a little and checking the piston deck height several times. If the block is indeed zero-decked, you will not be able to slide any feeler gauge blade between the underside of the rule and the piston crown. Please do this as soon as you can and report back the results.

    I ran a Dyno-Sim on this motor using 1 5/8" long-tube headers (not the shorty type headers, which I consider worthless) and was surprised at the results. With the motor in perfect tune (it will take a little work and a little time on your part, together with experimenting, to get it there), here are the results....

    RPM...HP....TQ
    2000..137...360
    2500..174...365
    3000..224...392
    3500..287...431
    4000..350...459
    4500..402...468
    5000..449...470
    5500..470...449
    6000..475...416
    6500..467...378

    Volumetric efficiency 101.2% @5000
    BMEP 200.0 psi @5000

    With 200 psi brake mean effective cylinder pressure, you will definitely need a very tight squish/quench to prevent detonation on pump gas.
    Again, I'm very surprised. This is one helluva combination of parts and perhaps the strongest 355 Chevy pump gas street motor I've seen in a while. I'll have to do some more digging into the history of those heads.

    You'll want to use a static ignition timing figure at the crank of 14 degrees before top dead center and tailor the centrifugal advance curve to add 20 degrees to that for a total timing figure of 34 degrees BTDC, with all of the advance in by 2800 rpm's.

    Sell the 700R4 and buy or build a TH350 or TH400 and use a 10", 2800-3000 stall torque converter. Use a double pumper 750 if you use a 3000 or higher stall. Use a vacuum secondaries if you use a converter that stalls at less than 3000. Construct an "H" or "X" pipe immediately after the collectors, then run pipes and mufflers of your choice to the rear of the truck. Nothing sounds quite as "Mickey Mouse" as pipes that terminate under the truck and reverberate against the sheet metal. Use a 14" x 4" air filter assembly so the motor can breathe.

    Just an afterthought: This build might be real interesting with 27" tires, 3.73 rear gear, 3500 stall converter and a Powerglide transmission.

    .
    Last edited by techinspector1; 12-20-2015 at 03:15 PM.
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