How and Why I do It like I do????????

I've decided to show some of my construction methods and tooling fixtures I've built to make things easier and more consistant to achieve the necessary end results-





https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...nt=photo%2cJPG




U can look back to pic #29 for this-the pics prior to that are for direct injection cylinder heads--sorry

If this worked, this is a fixture that I made to help in building 32, 33, 34 fords. It allows me to rest about any engine except GM LS and Ford FE series blocks on the oil pan rails of the block which will locate crankshaft centerline exactly at top level of frame rails. With the normal ride height set up that I use it will have adequate oil pan clearance and scrub line compliance.
This 32 ford is built with a IRS rear with the pumpkin centered so the drive line does have some angle altho it is sideways but same principals apply- equal angles front/rear U joint. I'll have to search for more pics and see if I can continue this.


In these various views you can see the slight sideways off set in the driveline angle because of the centered pumpkin and offset pinion

Jerry, I don't expect it to matter to you one iota but let me explain briefly why I would never use your approach. First, let's establish some numbers as talking points, but agree not to get hung up on exact figures because these are all based on some assumptions that may change build to build.
1. Assume a 1932 Ford, 106" wheelbase.
2) Assume a hot rod, and from Roy Brizio the "ideal" rubber rake is six to eight inches. Let's assume 8" drop back to front, because that's what I like, 32" rear height, 24" front, and I'm doing the math.
3) Block mounted dead parallel with the top of the frame, as you state as your preferred method.

Now running the numbers, that rubber rake gives you a 4.3 degree forward tilt (Tangent = 8/106), and since the engine is level with the frame, the crank is now sitting tail high, nose low and if the OEM manifold had a 3 degree tilt it's now sitting at 7.3 degrees rear high. Now all angles, pinion angle, crank angle, and carb plate angle are relative to the same plane, and that's mother earth's gravity - the force that affects the bubble in the level. By mounting your engine dead even with the top of frame, and then establishing the "attitude" that is desired for the chassis I believe that you've caused yourself a whole new set of problems that can be very easily solved with a bit of basic setup in the motor mount to tranny mount to chassis, with the chassis sitting "at attitude". Why not consider the carb angle as one of the inputs, along with oil pan clearance, header clearance, radiator clearance, ad infinitum, and make life simpler.

Now like I said, I don't expect you to agree, nor do I expect you to change your ways. I'm just pointing out that I don't agree with your approach, and I recommend that anyone contemplating a new build do enough research to understand all of the issues, and make informed decisions. It doesn't have to be difficult.

Roger you are assuming things-first I don't set the motor dead level with the frame. I set the front part where the centerline of the front main of crank is level with the frame tops---the back will point at what ever angle I need to be proper driveline alighnment. In addition to the fabbed channel iron piece in the pics, I have a heavy wall tube that is fitted into a 9 inch ford rear pinion support so that actuall the driveline angle is initially set up dead on center lines-------with this as an initial process to set up my builds, it only takes a slight tweek to do the U joint angles--My process literally makes it a deal to mis alighn instead of alighn??


You view about the block setting square / flat to the top of frame is incorrect-is that where you are having a problem accepting what I'm trying to say?

I seem to have been blocked from continueing so hope this takes-
Some issues that you don't seem to be considering is that the frame is straight and level but curved-also your issue of tire rake doesn't stand because its irrelevant what the tire size is for drive line angle but amont of pinion drop from the axle centerline-the 9 inch is about 2 .5 inches and is more than any of the other rears commonly used unless its a quick change with the lower shaft being really down there.


SO--at this point I want to clear that to set driveline angle, the rear must be at a ride height setting amount on the rear travel--------the front doesn't matter-------and at this point I would have the #1 main at center level with the top of frame, a heavy wall 2.750 tube in the other mains and extended into a 9 inch rear creating an EXACT ZERO misalighnment or in other terms-bore sighted????


Now this is where I do the fabrication and will do it on a fixture, suspended at 3 points so as not to create any twist and with various tools and lazors ( great inventions) insure that the rear is straight/equal to the front end and I willfab trans crossmember and mounts for the rear end bars/arms/etc.


When the car gets assembled it only takes a small shim up at the trans mount and a little lower/upper arm adjust to tilt pinion down to get the angles------even if the car is a centered hump build with the pinion offset to the right, it still takes a degree or so up and stay in the 3 degree target range so the u joints have good life ( I only use the Spicer spl joints-no grease zerks)


This method gives my builds good road clearance for the oil pans, a pretty decent amount of room for exhaust inside the frame, room for brake system under drivers floor, and as can be seen in some of my stuff-a fuel system that is protected totally inside the frame rails.


My procedure puts the drive angles right on and first try-none of that " I've got a vibration somewhere"


I've been around a lot of builders of some very high quality stuff and learned lots from them plus of course all my own experience growing up a farm boy driving mule teams at 6 years old------


My builds have won shows, races, set national records, been in many magazines ( congrats on Cragar calendar) and besides best appearing have also won several best engineered----------

Roger-one other thing-with your 8 inches of rubber rake-------only 4 inches count

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

You view about the block setting square / flat to the top of frame is incorrect-is that where you are having a problem accepting what I'm trying to say?

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Jerry, I can only go by what you say - can't read your mind. From the original post above,

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

It allows me to rest about any engine except GM LS and Ford FE series blocks on the oil pan rails of the block which will locate crankshaft centerline exactly at top level of frame rails. With the normal ride height set up that I use it will have adequate oil pan clearance and scrub line compliance.

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As for the rubber rake, you are 100% right, only 4" count so the angle would be 1/2 what I stated. I was wrong, which I have no problem admitting when it happens.

As for the dig, I'll just consider the source and bid you good day.

Removed by author.

Even with carbs , the engine angle can be whatever is needed---you just might have to level the carb some by an adapter plate or maybe machining the mounting flanges/bases




Roger does the next picture look like 8 inches tire rake?

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/...911024x683.jpg

Jerry, true to form you are ignoring the original point. Whenever we have an engine that is not purpose built for the car/truck that we're building, we have to consider the layout of that engine in the way it's set up in the chassis. It goes without saying that the driveline angles are most critical, and no one has said anything different. The whole point is that in the original design by the OEM engineering team for the vehicle that the engine/tranny came out of, they set it at a driveline attitude that worked, and if carbureted had the carb pad very near dead level at normal driving conditions on level ground. The engineering was done, was done right, and worked for essentially all situations. Also, the driveline angles were set to ensure long, trouble free operation of the entire driveline, and granted, the factory engineers didn't start at the carb and hope for the best on the driveline. Let's not be stupid here. The point is, after getting the driveline right, they then made the carb attitude right, which is level on level ground.

To ignore that basic point is, in my opinion, questionable at best. We know that the carb performs best when level, and we know that for a specific engine it was built to perform best in the chassis it came from. Why does it not make sense to use this piece of information in mocking up the engine & tranny mounts. Assuming the engine came out of a passenger car or 2WD pickup truck, if you set the carb pad level when you then check your driveline angle you will quite likely be DONE fussing with motor & tranny mount locations, other than side to side for clearance, alignment, etc, etc.

I'm not the first person to promote this method. It's stated in virtually every book, magazine article, and how-to instruction that's been written about hot rod engine swaps. Now once again I don't expect you to agree (at least in print), I don't expect you to admit that you've ever considered the carb angle as a starting point, but it's all but second nature, and it makes good sense!

Oh, and BTW, I'm not impressed that you managed to post the picture of the Deuce, especially since it wasn't even in the post with the question you asked (attempt to change the subject, true to form again). :HMMM::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:

I guess you didn't notice who it was???????




For everybody with the exception of Roger---------


Early cars had enclosed drive lines-no rear U joints------and up flow carbs with gravity feed fuel systems---------

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

I guess you didn't notice who it was???????
For everybody with the exception of Roger---------
Early cars had enclosed drive lines-no rear U joints------and up flow carbs with gravity feed fuel systems---------

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....and yet another change of the subject. :LOL::LOL::LOL: You're getting to be to predictable, Jerry.

I'm done here. Nothing's ever going to change. ;):):);)

Your the one who mentioned Roy--------I just took the picture of his car parked as close to mine as he could get----------


Do you want to co operate on a thread that is about how to set up suspensions and drive lines including various other collateral issues? If so , I would consider , with you and a couple of others, to undertake the project. It would follow a very strict format, starting off with selection of wheel and tire types, stance, ground clearance, and working into the primary engineering design qualities that are a must for reaching a end result that is safe and practical without any of those problems that seem to be common to the street rod community-shake, wobble and wander followed by unreliable performance of mechanical issues-cooling, charging, fuel systems, and/or unnecessary uncomfortable travels because of harst rides, heat, exhaust smell/noise/co issues------


And as a follow up a primer on title and license issues of keeping records of parts etc of the build-


And I would welcome the input of others on a constructive basis, but not on the combative type of exchanges that me and Roger seem to have settled into. Its got to change around here for this site to grow or even survive and I'm ready to step forward to either be up front or I'll get out of here before its too late---------

Removed by author.

Dave comes up on photo marked 68 of 90----you should be able to click on arrows under pic to go forward/back------this pic shows piece of channel iron that I have fabbed into a tool to put under block pab rail and over top of frame rails at locatin for front of engine=then locate out put shaft in the line to pinion. Has enough tolerance to slide block around right to left, foreward/rearward for fire wall and or radiator clearance-holds the block EXACTLY where crank front center line is level with top of rails which has proven to create good acceptable amount of ground clearance on oil pan and bell housing area

https://ertlea.bn1301.livefilestore....&wa=wsignin1.0

when this pic was taken I was working on clamping the braking system to the frame rail working for best location so I could lay out the center crossmember tubing. The cross bar in the center of frame at this point has the rear trans mount( 4l80e) and the forward mounts for the lower links which are laying across frame just behind my left elbow.

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Originally Posted by daveS53

When I click on the link in the first post, all I get is one picture. Am I doing something wrong?

The amount of negativity on this site certainly inhibits the amount of posting that I do. There seems to be no room for a hot rod that's not built old school. I try to appreciate them all.

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I get only one picture too?
And, I think we could all use a little less sarcasm and have a little more patience and understanding. Tremendous amount of knowledge here that can benefit a lot of people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Do you want to co operate on a thread that is about how to set up suspensions and drive lines including various other collateral issues? If so , I would consider , with you and a couple of others, to undertake the project.

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I personally would love to see a co-operative thread on building hot rods!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Your the one who mentioned Roy--------I just took the picture of his car parked as close to mine as he could get----------


Do you want to co operate on a thread that is about how to set up suspensions and drive lines including various other collateral issues? If so , I would consider , with you and a couple of others, to undertake the project. It would follow a very strict format, starting off with selection of wheel and tire types, stance, ground clearance, and working into the primary engineering design qualities that are a must for reaching a end result that is safe and practical without any of those problems that seem to be common to the street rod community-shake, wobble and wander followed by unreliable performance of mechanical issues-cooling, charging, fuel systems, and/or unnecessary uncomfortable travels because of harst rides, heat, exhaust smell/noise/co issues------


And as a follow up a primer on title and license issues of keeping records of parts etc of the build-


And I would welcome the input of others on a constructive basis, but not on the combative type of exchanges that me and Roger seem to have settled into. Its got to change around here for this site to grow or even survive and I'm ready to step forward to either be up front or I'll get out of here before its too late---------

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Roy was maybe using the "pretty girl/ugly girl" approach, where the average lookin' girl befriends a less attractive, hefty BFF so that she'll look more stunning. It can work the same way at car shows too, right? Pick your parking spot to your best advantage. Now before you get your panties in a wad, you're the one that made the claim about Brizio wanting to get close to your car as he could get, so I'm only offering my thoughts based on my life experiences. I could well be wrong....

As for "cooperating on a thread....", I will be happy to offer input any place that I believe that I can add value, but I'm in no way an expert on building hot rods. I've read a ton of "how to" technical articles through the years in just about every car magazine published, along with Peterson's "How To Build...." soft covers but "expert"? Not even close. I sincerely appreciate TechInspector1's approach, where he refers people to specific books that he's read himself, advising them to "...read it, then read it again, and then come back with questions." There's a myriad of info out there on the "right" ways to do things, so for me to profess that I know better would be flat out wrong. I've put one car together that turned out OK if you don't look too close, and I'm working on putting a second one together now, but both started life as premium rollers with the chassis setup only needing to be put together and tightened down. That hardly qualifies me as "expert". I'm happy to provide input, but only in places where I think I might be able to add value, or to help understanding.

As for your combative comment, if you expect that I'm going to back down and not comment on things that peg my bullshit meter it's simply not going to happen. I'm always going to comment on something that I believe to be wrong or questionable in approach, no matter the author. If my comment is ignored, if it's waved off as "unworthy", or if there's an attempt to simply change the subject and divert attention to another area then I will dig in and bring it back as necessary until it is addressed. I always look at technical advice with a critical eye, and again if it trips my bullshit meter I'm not going to ignore it. I always try to be respectful in my responses, and if that's a problem then Brent or Bill can deal with me directly and solve the problem. The carb base angle is a key tool to the initial mock-up of a driveline, which is of course driven by the driveline angles. Too many before us have pointed out this as fact.

Roger------I did not say that Brizio wanted to part close to the California Charger, just that where he was parked was as close as anyone in the pits could of gotten a car not associated with an entry-happens a lot at major events--so I apologize for sounding like he was trying to pretty girl/ugly girl??? to you----quite a laughable thought!


Now if we go back to Tech's post in the Angles thread------if he hadn't mentioned to set the engine to the carb base being level as THE initial step of doing the drive line, I'm sure this would not have got this far off base. However, I'll stand with my process of fixing the carb base angle after the drive line is done-----you don't lick the stamp before you write the letter---------


Now if you want to address some of the questionable areas of your driveline alignment process-----Oh, I'm sorry, you have built two cars with a premium roller packages where you assemble and tighten things after you install your crate engine.But since you say you aren't an expert , but do rely on a bullshit meter , I take it that you don't want to participate and I will respect your wish. You can even put me on your ignore list.

Removed by author.

Dave-can you see the pic in post 16?

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Dave-can you see the pic in post 16?

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All I see on your post is a box with an X in it. No link, no picture.

https://bay182.mail.live.com/att/Get...t=160&size=Att


The greenishlooking channel iron piece on top of the frame rails just behind the front tire area is what I use to support the front of a block on which locates bottom block oil pan rails at level point to top of frame rails.The cross tube between me and the rear has the rear trans mount locted to alighn the crank/mainshaft centerline with the rear end pinion c/l-----on this build with IRS the pumpkin is centered and the pinion is offset toward the right rear a couple inches.
This was setup with a heavy wall ( 2.75) tube and a fixture made of a 9 inch ford pinion support and center section but with pumpkin housing for IRS shifted to the center line. I can probably post some pics but need some nice weather to go to storage facility for fixtures (snowed 6 inches today)

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Roger------I did not say that Brizio wanted to part close to the California Charger, just that where he was parked was as close as anyone in the pits could of gotten a car not associated with an entry-happens a lot at major events--so I apologize for sounding like he was trying to pretty girl/ugly girl??? to you----quite a laughable thought!


Now if we go back to Tech's post in the Angles thread------if he hadn't mentioned to set the engine to the carb base being level as THE initial step of doing the drive line, I'm sure this would not have got this far off base. However, I'll stand with my process of fixing the carb base angle after the drive line is done-----you don't lick the stamp before you write the letter---------


Now if you want to address some of the questionable areas of your driveline alignment process-----Oh, I'm sorry, you have built two cars with a premium roller packages where you assemble and tighten things after you install your crate engine.But since you say you aren't an expert , but do rely on a bullshit meter , I take it that you don't want to participate and I will respect your wish. You can even put me on your ignore list.

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Gee Whiz Jerry, you make the fact that a guy starts with a roller package sound like it's almost sinful! :LOL::LOL::LOL: I guess I'm supposed to be ashamed of that, but I'm not.

I had a long, wordy response typed, but deleted it. What's the point? A friend years ago shared an old adage, "Arguing with some people is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After awhile you come to realize that the pig simply likes being in the mud!":LOL::LOL::LOL:

Enjoy the mud, and have a blessed day!

I only see 2 pictures that Jerry posted!! One of the frame(Jerry kneeling?) and one finished Roadster ! And Brent!! Jerry and Roger are fighting again!!! Pete

This place is getting more lively---352 views in less than 48 hours-------did anyone learn anything so far?????besides that Roger is using a bullshit meter in a mud fight?????couldn't resist!


I'm going to round up for photos some of my jigs/fixtures/devices--------and try to explain why I use them and how they work----there will be a limited ( I hope) discussion of what the basic physical issues are, and the importance of adhering to them---there can not be any areas where someone assumes something as it seems that is where my postings come up short, so be prepared for lengthy discussions explaining why its much more complicated than the popular present day "Lefty loosey, righty tighty" that some evidently hang there total project on---

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Originally Posted by 36 sedan

I personally would love to see a co-operative thread on building hot rods!

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I withdraw my comment. No co-operative effort can exist in the mitts of rhetorical rederick.

I only saw one pic in this thread the rest were red x's. Just my .02............

Pinion HYPOID offset-------(distance offset from center)


The 9 inch Ford is the most offset pinion at 2.25 inches and therefore the most inefficient by a few percent(varies further on tooth count and shape) with this much hypoid offset it more or less screws the ring gear for rotation instead of strictly turning it thru the gear angle-----
The Ford 8 inch is the same offset, but the Ford 8.8 is 1.5 as are most other common automotive differentials used in cars and light trucks/vans. the Chev 12
bolt, Dana 44/50 are also 1.5 and the Dana 60, 70, 80 are 1.125.


This number can be used to figure the layout of your build for drive line angles if you know the height of the rear tire/wheel package by subtracting the pinion offset from your rear tire loaded radius, and then putting in numbers for the ground clearance you want for oil pan/bell housing (generally lowest area of drive train), transmission length, motor set back (from front wheel centerline ) Wheel base , and height of front dampner/pulley centerline ---------with these numbers you can calculate approximate drive shaft length and work out the angles to ground. It can done in a very visual means by drawing it out on garage floor groove/seam with a piece of chalk. use the seam as ground reference, draw a circle around one of your rear tires, mark the center and the pinion offset distance, wheel base distance to the front point, reference points for front pulley, flywheel area, trans length, area that would represent trans mount(for reference at this point).
Now ( I would suggest 2 or 3 colors of chalk) Snap a line from front pulley to pinion, and another from theflywheel area of that line downward 2 to 3 degrees below the line to the pinion but also continue it on forward to the front pulley area. This will have given you the measurements for the mounting of engine and trans to achieve a workable drive line IF it is high enough above ground-------


Altho this sorta explains laying out in a visual mental picture-------most likely, in todays big/little tire /wheel combo scene------you may find that you have to raise the back of the trans to achieve the results needed--------


And there goes the carb base angle!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.wescottsauto.com/WebCatal...iagram1932.pdf


If you can open this its a frame diagram and you can draw lines on it to represent the drive line angles