coolent temp fe

ok guys i need help i have posted this concern here before i have a 61 galaxie 352fe rebuilt 200 miles ago :3dSMILE: i run 210-225:HMMM: no matter what i do its a mec guage in the intake stock location so i no that is the tru temp. 180 thermosdat (have tried 160 and no stat) i have a big oversized aluminum rad electric 16" procomp fan the engine has and over sized proformer cam intake and carb msd 6a box wires and a petronix ignitor 2 with no vacume advance. i have asked this question before on here everbody said timeing issue the timming seems way advanced to me but i backed it down a bit and it made it run terable when warmed up and it ran hotter temp (i think me timeing pointer may be bent) im going to run it to tdc and check and corect that if needed but my question is do you think that a timeing issue will cause these temps and are FE blocks known for this thanks and dont be to hard on me lol:eek:

and yes the head gaskets are not backwards lol thank God

Why no vacuum advance?

Are you sure you don't have air trapped in the system? I ended up drilling a 1/8" hole in the thermostat plate and positioned that straight up when I installed it in the gooseneck to be sure the air had way out. Did you use a new stock water pump in your rebuild?

its a reman pump thats all that i can find for a 61 and i dont think there is air in the system because i have had it apart so many times and has sat enough that i would have got it out by now

Do i need a vacume advance will that help keep it kooler

does anyone make a 19'' electric fan or are you saying put a mecanical on it

when does it overheat ? as you are driving it or as it sits and idles .. it should`nt over heat going down the road even without a fan ..and hotter weather plays a big role

You need to undertsnad the "true temps" you are seeing. The sending unit is right up or near the top hose outlet, so as the coolant circulates it picks up all the heat from the internal metal and takes it up to the radiator for cooling.
But as it passes the sending unit , you have to realize the coolant will be at its hottest point. So yea, the gauge will read those hotter temps and send them to the gauge. But inside the block the internal metals should be cooler and also the fact that the coolant temps you are getting ,are temps of coolant that's leaving the motor, not whats in it.
If the radiator, fan and pump are doing there job, the coolant temps coming back into the motor in the bottom hose should be 15-20 deg cooler. The gauge is a good thing to have but you must understand what it reads and how it gets those readings.

One thing I've not seen mentioned is a radiator fan shroud - do you have a shroud to force the air pulled by the fan through the radiator vs around the sides of the fan? And like Hoss says, does it still overheat driving down the open highway?

I get fans from GT_RECYCLER, a seller on Ebay---he has a 19 incher on auction right now plus dozens of others--prompt shipment, custom packaging---I boight several and deal direct now but he has a lot of info on his auctions---check him out

Check Ebay item 220796149863

You will want the size fan that will best fit the size of the fin area on your radiator...but in addition to looking at the fan diameter, it's equally important to make sure it has a high CFM rating. I've seen some of these large fans that don't flow much more then about 1500 CFM--IMO for proper cooling with an electric fan you should have at least 2000 CFM. The core and fin size of the radiator is important to cooling also, as well as if it's a single, double, or triple pass radiator. With all the different companies selling aluminum radiators and electric cooling fans, there should be a lot of specs that go into selecting the proper components other then just the price......Also, as Roger mentioned, shrouding the radiator is important---if all the air coming in the front of the car passes over, under, or around the radiator it's not going to be doing much cooling of the radiator!!! A final thought, there also needs to be enough open area to allow the hot air surrounding the engine to exit the engine compartment.....

ok well im going to build a shroud for it and see what happens and then i will let you no thanks and also at those temps when would you shut it down how hot

a good indication of how much air flow from a electric fan is the amps it draws

the fan says its a 2650cfm! so i guess will see how it acts with a shroud

its going to overheat

why do you say that will a shroud make it worse and what do you sugjest i do im up fod advice

from your first post .. 200 miles is not a lot of breakin time .. does it boil over when you cut it off ..

no it has never boiled over and yep i think your hinting around it needing to break in and you are prob rite but i just dont no how hot i can operate it at dont want to cook it lol

It would be very helpful if you would go back through this thread and answer each of the questions asked, or address the things that have been done vs just answering the last question in the list. For example, Hoss asked

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Originally Posted by HOSS429

when does it overheat ? as you are driving it or as it sits and idles .. it should`nt over heat going down the road even without a fan ..and hotter weather plays a big role

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This is a very important point - you should not be overheating going down the open road if you have sufficient cooling area, radiator capacity and coolant flow in your system, along with a good thermostat. Dave pointed out that the diameter of the fan needs to be matched to your radiator fin area - if your radiator is only 16" wide then putting a 19" fan on it is going to require some fancy footwork on the shroud at best, and a better answer might be a higher flow, more efficient 16" fan that fits the application. Jerry has pointed out that cfm ratings can be challenging on electric fans, and that the amp draw is the best indication of what work it is doing - you'll see a cfm vs amps chart with SPAL fans for this reason. You've said that you are going to try a shroud, which I guess means that up to now your fan is mounted behind the radiator but can pull air from the path of least resistance. No offense, but you've got several people trying to help you figure out your problem, but it seems to me that the feedback loop is not working very well. If it's just me I'm sorry, but I feel like we're sort of shooting in the dark here.

In my first post i said it runs 210-225 NO MATTER WHAT thats why i am set back it does not matter if i set, drive in town or go, 100mph on the hiway it may go down to 200 or 205 at really high speeds but im not sure have not drove it enough because i dont want to kill it lol. The 16 inch fan is mounted to the radiator and it takes up almost all the finn section except for a few inches in the corner and top (thats why i am building a shroud) and i no you guys are all tryn to help out but in all respect my one question was about engine timing and if it effects cooling temps and what temps the FE runs at so im sorry if you feal like i have waisted your time but thanks for all the input

you`re not waisting our time .. we just want to help in the correct way .. all is well ..

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Originally Posted by HOSS429

you`re not waisting our time .. we just want to help in the correct way .. all is well ..

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I agree, man, we're just trying to help you figure this beast out. While I don't believe you will hurt anything running 210-225F (my Jeep is redlined at 260F!!!) if you're running a 180F stat something's wrong. Are you dead sure that your water pump is good, and that the impeller is not loose or damaged? It really sounds like a low coolant flow problem to me if you are indeed running that hot at speed on the open road. The fan shroud & fan help you when you're stopped or moving too slow to force air through the radiator, not on the open road. I'm leaning to a water pump problem, or air trapped in the system - just having it apart does not ensure the system is filled. If it's got a point to trap air the air bubble can impede your coolant flow. Hard to tell without laying eyes on your system layout, or pictures.

Ok cool im gonna try your thermostat trick and also do you think i should buy a high flow water pump or what are your suggestions for the water pump.. And thank you very much

Water pump pulley size can be an issue, too.... possibly the wrong size pulley on either the water pump or the crank and slowing the water pump down too much????

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Originally Posted by 61galaxiefe

Ok cool im gonna try your thermostat trick and also do you think i should buy a high flow water pump or what are your suggestions for the water pump.. And thank you very much

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I've heard bad things about high flow water pumps, actually moving the water too fast for good heat transfer, both picking up heat from the engine, and getting rid of it in the radiator. I'm suggesting that you might be able to actually see the flow via the cap direct into the tank (mine is off of a remote neck:(), or pull the pump and inspect the impeller, and the attachment of the impeller to the shaft.

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Water pump pulley size can be an issue, too.... possibly the wrong size pulley on either the water pump or the crank and slowing the water pump down too much????

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Dave, that's a very good point, too, and one I had not thought of. A set of under drive pulleys could also be the source of reduced coolant flow.

'61galaxie,
Have you shot the system with an infra-red heat gun? It would be interesting to see what an accurate direct readout says for temps on your block, top tank, bottom tank, heads, etc., just for grins. Your local auto parts store might have a loaner?

Does the 61 have a cross flow radiator??? and I want to know what the diminsions of the core are, how many rows of fins per inch, how many rows of tubes and the width of the tubes ( one inch, 1 1/4 in, 1 1/2 in), how high pressure cap , is it a closed system with a recirculate cap, and if you have put a thermometer in the water-----

Probably not in the 60s, but in the 70s Ford had some valves that when warm would change the vacume to the dist to manifold vac to increase timing which raised idle speed which increased water flow AND fan speed----

Your vehicle was designed with properly shrouded engine driven fan and without it your engine is going to overheat with an accessory add on fan---you need to use a complete package of an oem type fan package and it will probably draw more amps than your 60s electric system puts out---

THATS SOME GREAT INPUT GUYS THIS IS THE RAD I GOT FROM SPEED WAY.
All-aluminum, furnace-brazed construction
No epoxy glue or crimped in gaskets
Maximum amount of fins per inch allows greater heat transfer
Two rows of 1" aluminum tubes (out cools five rows of copper)
Billet filler neck, neck not stamped Available in 31" width (measurements include tanks)
19" tall
1-1/2" (upper) inlet
1-3/4" (lower) outlet
AND I HAVE GOT RID OFF THE SURGE TANK ADDED A WATER NECK AND AND OVER FLOW TANK I WILL TRY AND GET SOME PICS THIS WEAKEND

Oh and i still have the stock 19'' 7blade fan i can put back on if so will i need to use a clutch (it may not fit)lol

So---you have a cross flow radiator with 2 rows of one inch tubes----what about the other questions? You aren't using the stock fan and you did away with the surge tank!!!!!
And can you put a number per inch on the maximun amount of fins per inch??

Put the surge tank and fan back on the car and your issues will probably go away!!!!!!

Ok i will see if i can make the stock fan fit also how does the surge tank help what does it do different. Im not sure about a number on the fins i will need to look. The pullys are stock so i dont no if that would be and issue.i have not tried a guage to see the coolent temp threw out the system i will try that this weekend

the surge tank was used to get the air out of the flow thru the radiator on cross flow rads---high point on the system--

your rad will probably have 12 or 15 fins per inch--just take a ruler and count the number for an inch----if a fin lines up on almost every 1/16 mark you will probably have 15/inch

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

So---you have a cross flow radiator with 2 rows of one inch tubes----what about the other questions? You aren't using the stock fan and you did away with the surge tank!!!!!
And can you put a number per inch on the maximun amount of fins per inch??

Put the surge tank and fan back on the car and your issues will probably go away!!!!!!

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Jerry,
With all due respect there are a ton of cars out there that have replaced the clunky OEM mechanical fan with a properly sized electric model and they do just fine, and often better than with the OEM fan. I believe this is especially true of the older iron, like the '61 model being discussed here - things have come a long way since the '60's. As for the surge tank, that's just an overflow tank with the inlet at the bottom, to ensure that the system is 100% liquid, unless I don't understand something about the old Ford surge systems. The main feature was a safe way to add fluid to a hot system, and there are lots of nice looking radiator overflow tanks out there that do the job just fine without the ugly features of the stock surge tank. If I had invested good money in modifying the cooling system to be more attractive without compromising the cooling I would not be in any hurry to throw the ugly OEM parts back on, but that's just me. I would be looking for the problem, and then trying to figure out how to make what I had work by making minimal changes. Again, no disrespect, just a difference in opinion here.

Well Roger--

A good saying that I quote occasionally is "If the facts don't support your theory, get a new theory!"

ANd I agree that many late model vehicles have electric fans, closed,recovery type systems that do a much better job than the old engine driven fan systems---however---this is not the case when some one puts a electric supposedly 2600cfm fan, no shroud, on a cross flow radiator when all the modern day cars will use a fan system that takes most of the utput of that 100+amp alternator to such upwards of 5000 cfm thru a very effient tightly shrouded radiator of triple 1 1/4 inch tubes and 15 fins per inch.

The FE is a heat producing mother and Ford put those tanks on them to complete a workable cooling system---the closed recovery systems came along years later in other applications--those tanks give a place for the air to rise to while a solid flow of liquid flows thru the radiator to be cooled by a airflow differential that is ducted thru the front of the vehicle where it has to go thru the rad core before passing around the engine,fuel pump/lines, carb, exhaust,etc and exit under the car for more cooling of the exhaust to keep the cabin cool.

The size of the pullies used by the factories are sized to give a ratio of the water pump/fan and electrical system needs in the application of the vehicle--ie, a pass car might have different pullies than say a dump truck or concrete mixer.

A advertized 2600cfm fan won't cut it, and a crossflow radiator with the cylinder heads higher than the core won't work without a total fluid only passage thru( no air/foam/bubbles)

If I misspelled any words I'll be happy to correct them

Jerry

OK THAT ALL SOUNDS GOO.I SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THIS B4 BUT THE CAR RAN HOT B4 THE RADIATOR AND FAN. i HAD THE STOCK FAN THE STOCK SURGE TANK AND A REBUILT FACTORY RADIATOR AND IT RAN EVEN HOTTER THATS WHY I DID ALL THIS STUFF ITS BETTER NOW BUT LIKE ROGER SAID I HAVE A 180 THERMO SO IT SHOULD BE CLOSE TO THAT. I FEAL LIKE IM CAUSEING FIGHTS AND I DONT LIKE THAT SO GUYS PLEASE DONT GET UPSET I THINK I WILL BUILD A SHROUD FOR WHAT I HAVE AND PLAY WITH THE TIMING AND GET IT GOOD AND BROKE IN THEN I WILL LET YALL NO HOW ITS GOING DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD PLAN

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Originally Posted by jerry clayton

Well Roger--

A good saying that I quote occasionally is "If the facts don't support your theory, get a new theory!"

ANd I agree that many late model vehicles have electric fans, closed,recovery type systems that do a much better job than the old engine driven fan systems---however---this is not the case when some one puts a electric supposedly 2600cfm fan, no shroud, on a cross flow radiator when all the modern day cars will use a fan system that takes most of the utput of that 100+amp alternator to such upwards of 5000 cfm thru a very effient tightly shrouded radiator of triple 1 1/4 inch tubes and 15 fins per inch.

The FE is a heat producing mother and Ford put those tanks on them to complete a workable cooling system---the closed recovery systems came along years later in other applications--those tanks give a place for the air to rise to while a solid flow of liquid flows thru the radiator to be cooled by a airflow differential that is ducted thru the front of the vehicle where it has to go thru the rad core before passing around the engine,fuel pump/lines, carb, exhaust,etc and exit under the car for more cooling of the exhaust to keep the cabin cool.

The size of the pullies used by the factories are sized to give a ratio of the water pump/fan and electrical system needs in the application of the vehicle--ie, a pass car might have different pullies than say a dump truck or concrete mixer.

A advertized 2600cfm fan won't cut it, and a crossflow radiator with the cylinder heads higher than the core won't work without a total fluid only passage thru( no air/foam/bubbles)

If I misspelled any words I'll be happy to correct them

Jerry

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Well Jerry, I believe my theory is fine, and I'd also say that it pretty well dovetails with yours :) You put more explanation into it, but we both agree that the surge tank that Ford added was put there to purge all of the air from their radiator, increasing heat transfer and improving cooling, so we agree :eek:
I can't comment on the FE being a "...heat producing mother...", any more than other engines of the period or since, but there are plenty running cool, so controlling heat is possible. Having a properly installed coolant recovery tank to keep the system 100% liquid is a basic tenet, and I guess we agree again :eek:
61galaxiefe told us that his pulleys were all stock, but the primer on different pulley sizes for different applications is good information to know, and your explanation makes perfect sense. The 2600cfm fan may not be enough, but it does not stand a chance without a good shroud, another point of agreement. :cool:

I think your spell checker worked great ;)

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Originally Posted by 61galaxiefe

OK THAT ALL SOUNDS GOO.I SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THIS B4 BUT THE CAR RAN HOT B4 THE RADIATOR AND FAN. i HAD THE STOCK FAN THE STOCK SURGE TANK AND A REBUILT FACTORY RADIATOR AND IT RAN EVEN HOTTER THATS WHY I DID ALL THIS STUFF ITS BETTER NOW BUT LIKE ROGER SAID I HAVE A 180 THERMO SO IT SHOULD BE CLOSE TO THAT. I FEAL LIKE IM CAUSEING FIGHTS AND I DONT LIKE THAT SO GUYS PLEASE DONT GET UPSET I THINK I WILL BUILD A SHROUD FOR WHAT I HAVE AND PLAY WITH THE TIMING AND GET IT GOOD AND BROKE IN THEN I WILL LET YALL NO HOW ITS GOING DOES THAT SOUND LIKE A GOOD PLAN

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61galaxiefe, I believe your plan is right. It's interesting that you're telling us that the car ran hot before, with all of the stock hardware and a rebuilt OEM radiator. Was your "rebuild" a total teardown with the block cleaned out and machined to spec or was it a bearing & ring job? Question is, did you do anything to chase the overheating issue during your rebuild? No need to reply now - following your plan and letting us know how things progress works for me.

Are you sure you don't have an air bubble trapped in the system? Sometimes when you get a project done and you fill the system up, you normally fill the radiator and then as it drains into the block, you keep filling to get it full. But the coolant is pushing an air bubble into the system and can stay there until it breaks. So the motor gets real hot real fast. The way you solve that is to just cycle the motor, let it get hot, then let it cool down. eventually the bubble wil get pushed out and the coolant can then circulet much better.

try some of this ... what are you cooling with .. pure water or a coolant mix ?

Ok big thanks too all who helped me out. Sunday thought i would figure this thang out one step at a time I have a huge box fan in my garage so i drug it out riged it up in front of the car turned it on high let it run after about 15min guess what 210 (BOO) so i have had the idea in the back off my head that it timing so i shut it down let it cool and started it back up and advanced the timing more let it set at idle with the box fan cooled at 195 so i advanced the timing more got down to 180 :>) so i adjusted the carb and took it out for a test drive around town its 185-190 and hiway 180 and a bit below i can tell the thermosdat is working lol. so im syill going to build a fan shroud but seems i got a handle on it. thanks again looks like timing showed me this time lol