Thread: Things are not what they appear when you buy parts even from GM

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Originally Posted by CR55

Too many americans with a sense of entitlement! Everyone feels as though they are owed a good living and do nothing to produce!!!

Boy is that ever true, having owned my own bussiness for many years you find this so true and it is a shame

Originally Posted by CR55

China will apparently become the next super power

Well, look at the bright side. As a second rate nation, we'll no longer be obligated to provide bribes (foreign aid) to foreign countries in order to be their "friends". That will become the responsibility of China.

Bob

I would like to know if the executives for big companies in China are paid millions of dollars in bonuses wether they make a profit or not! Today China builds substandard products and in some cases products with contaminates and poisons in them. Us companies have to abide by rules. China only does when they get caught. I have been in the electronics manufacturing industry since 1972 and that industry has been destroyed in the US by the need for cheaper labor. Who benefits from cheap labor? The consumer? No I have not seen purchase cost for anything going down. Stock holders? I don't think so. How about the 10's and in some cases 100's of millions of dollars paid to the CEO's of these large companies. In some cases not having made a profit for his company. These guy's are dancing all the way to the bank!
The next decision to be made is how are we going to support the kids graduating form college with student loans and there are no jobs. We have baby boomers today that can't retire because of the economics times and they are filling the jobs these kids need to be filling. Sorry guys and gals I got POed. We have dingbats running this country.

When I was a kid we knew that anything marked "MADE IN JAPAN" was junk. Not so much anymore. I think that the Chinese quality will come up eventually, but for now it's buyer beware!

Originally Posted by fitzwilly

I think that the Chinese quality will come up eventually, but for now it's buyer beware!

China is capable of quality that's comparable to any other industrial country --- if the buyer wants to pay for it. However, American companies went there looking for cheap, and you can't have quality and cheap. When we're willing to pay more for quality, they'll provide it. In the meantime, we get what we pay for.

Bob

Originally Posted by bobscogin

China is capable of quality that's comparable to any other industrial country --- if the buyer wants to pay for it. However, American companies went there looking for cheap, and you can't have quality and cheap. When we're willing to pay more for quality, they'll provide it. In the meantime, we get what we pay for.

Bob

Exactly, Lets hold other countries to the same standards US companies have to follow and that would help level the playing field. I don't think we sent manufacturing to China and said they could use sub std. materials and identified dangerous chemicals in the products they supply. The controls were in place here to make sure safe products were manufactured. Why are these same controls not in place over there? I think Bob hit the nail on the head. "American companies went there looking for cheap." At our expense!

Originally Posted by sfort

Why are these same controls not in place over there? I think Bob hit the nail on the head. "American companies went there looking for cheap." At our expense!

Everything said by anyone is open to interpretation, especially when stated briefly.

Just so there's no confusion of intent, if you are to more accurately distill my long post to a single sentence in the context you're stating it would be more accurate to say; "American companies went there looking for competitive." The marketplace dictates what's "cheap". As for the cost of controls, your statement would only be accurate if what we do here is the ideal, not the perceived ideal. Just as one very small example of, in my opinion, what we do wrong, we as consumers pay an enormous hidden cost for frivolous litigation. The trial lawyers get paid very well for services that do little of benefit to society in far too many instances. Maybe that would be the way for our country to regain a competitive advantage, send all our trial lawyers to China.

Edit: I like Jerry's idea too.

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

benefit to society in far too many instances. Maybe that would be the way for our country to regain a competitive advantage, send all our trial lawyers to China.

Edit: I like Jerry's idea too.

Nope - I like Shakespere's solution with lawyers better:

Cade:
I thank you, good people—there shall be no money; all shall eat
and drink on my score, and I will apparel them all in one livery,
that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.

Dick:
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

... and bombs made by those over paid union workers so we can all be free to do what we please as our hobbies. Shame on those workers!

REGS (Retired GE PROUD Union Worker)

yep make sure to thank FORD i have no problem with over pay union workers just the one s that will not work and hind behind the union .as china rolls right over the dead bodys

China will eventually become a victim of it's own success, much as America and Japan did. Workers will demand more, and as their standard of living improves, they'll become complacent about their position in the world's manufacturing community. Buyers will find cheaper products made in less affluent countries and you'll see labels that say Made in -------- (insert name of your favorite third world emerging nation). And the Chinese will get to complain about the quality and whine that they don't make anything anymore.

Bob

It would take hundreds of pages in a well written book to map out all the intertwined reasons why all of the complaints we hear here and in day to day conversation are happening. So, I'll join Charlie on the side that often gets villified because of lack of understanding. Most people could figure a lot of this out IF they spent enough time to think about each event and it's probable outcome, and IF there were some understanding of basic economics and typical human behavior (which are almost the same thing). But it's easier to listen to "the voices" (usually a stenographic media), and their political chums, than it is to think.

Money has no value. All commercial activity within a society is based on trade. You trade whatever you have of value (physical labor, creative thinking, pigs and chickens, whatever) with a fellow citizen who has something of value to you. Once you've acquired that item you have to find the next person that has something of value to you to trade with. Eventually you come upon something you need (say a food item) that the person who has it doesn't need what you have to trade. Likewise, someone else wants what you can provide, but they don't have anything of interest to you. That's where money comes in. As a society we negotiate (or arbitrate) a value for each of those items and assign a measurement system.........tada.....money. It makes the value of something you can provide for the good of your fellow man portable. Money has no value, it's a score keeping device. If you can't accept that concept then stop reading here because the rest will either confuse or aggravate you.

The rest of what I'll say will be more like bullet points than whole thoughts/justifications because..............well, I'm not writing that book

There is no such thing as greed if a free choice transaction occurs. If the CEO of Ultra Big Stuff makes a bazillion dollars a year because a bazillion people willingly buy the stuff his company makes then he's earned it. If you don't think he deserves it, you choose not to buy his stuff. Now, if that CEO buys a politician that you've freely elected and that politician uses the force of law (backed up by some form of enforcement usually of coersion) to force you to buy something, then it's a different matter. CFL light bulbs and wind turbines (just a small example) marketed by GE ring a bell?

Forty to fifty years ago when labor unions stopped negotiating worker safety issues and emphasised feather bedding of jobs and benefits they became a burden on the economy and caused labor costs to exceed their value. Make no mistake, management shares the blame as they made short term business decisions for immediate benefit while selling their long term viability down the river (GM ring a bell?). Once the union bosses, who, ironically, continue to get paid while they "make" the workers they represent go out on unpaid strike, over priced their laborers, prudent business people tried to pass along the increased prices necessary until the marketplace responded by either not buying the product or service, or finding a lower cost provider. Once the business operators figured out that labor costs were "out of line", they found more economical alternatives (robots ring a bell?). Meanwhile the Union boss lives large, pals around with the politicians that make laws that enforce lower productivity, and eventually destroy jobs.

Any politician that claims he "creates" a job is lying. They may be able to influence whether a job is created or destroyed, but they NEVER created a usefull job (excluding their mini-empire of staff here).

Why do so many "illegal aliens" come here and find jobs? The distraction answer is "they do the jobs Americans don't want to do", or "the greedy businesses hire them for "slave" wages so they can fill their pockets". One at a time. The three basics of survival are food, clothing, and shelter. Before we organized into structured society we had to forage (resembles work, no?) day to day for those things. We still do, it's just that we've progressed to where we can provide value to one another that frees us to pay (exchange) others to supply those while we do something else. Well, some of us. So on the illegal alien laborer thing, you need to ask the question, "how can they get a job when a citizen of this country is "unemployed"?" The bullet point answer is, those Americans (could be anywhere though) don't have to work in order to survive. They choose not to work because they've found a way to eat, sleep, and dress that doesn't require exchanging something of value with their fellow man. This is where the "compassionate" get their undies in a bundle. They don't like the use of the word choose. Sorry, not contributing something of value to your fellow man, no matter how many excuses you can dream up, is a choice..................with the comparatively rare example of a seriously (genuinely) disabled (mostly mentally) person excluded. As a society we've given a dispensation to far too many citizens from their obligation to contribute to their fellow man in whatever capacity they have because of our affluence (it makes you feel good to be "generous" doesn[t it?) If people REALLY faced starvation they'd do those jobs that "...Americans don't want to do..." because they'd HAVE to.

As for the "greedy" employer hiring for lower wages, see the part above about negotiating for monetary value. If the job can be done by a foreigner who never got more than a third grade education, doesn't speak the language, and doesn't share the cultural trappings of this country, then it's valuse is commensurately low. They negotiate that lower trade value. The first business guy to discover that might make "excess" profit for a short time while he leverages that advantage, but soon his competitors discover his "secret" and then do the same thing. Competition kicks in (as it so often does), and prices go down, either in hard numbes or comparative value. That is unless the business owner buys a politician who rigs the market for him.

My fingers are tired. As consumers we get what we negotiate for. It's somewhat complicated by democratic process because when we choose to live in society and agree to such things as elections, laws, negotiation by group, and so on, we don't always get exactly what we want, be have to accept what we believe is "the best for society". Unfortunately we seem to lock ourselves into bad deals for the group that we don't normally accept on an individual basis.

What sense does it make to send (using small numbers for the sake of clarity) $1000 of our earnings to a Federal Education Department, who then skims off $600 for fancy office buildings in D.C. and perks up the butt, then "generously" sends back $400, with strings attached, and tells our local schools to do stuff that, over the past 3 decades, has resulted in more costly education PROCESS, but lower performance outcomes? And that's just one example of doing what sounds good, but doesn't really work. That's what our government process has evolved to.

One last thought provoker. We often hear about our manufacturing prowess not being what it used to be. That's both correct and incorrect. First, think about the time frame references. Prior to WWII the manufacturing hubs of the world were the US, Germany, Japan, and to a somewhat lesser degree, parts of Western Europe. As a result of WWII 3 of those 4 were virtually destroyed. We here in the US had somewhat of a monopoly, and we leveraged it well. I would add that most of that benefit was NOT directed by government, but rather free enterprise. Government did do a few things right to enable private enterprise, things like developing the Interstate highway system, and ports for export. To compare that period to today, when we face competition from other countries without regard to our near monopoly is to ignore reality. We didn't have to compete then as we do now. And, sadly in my opinion, we've allowed our affluence to make us fat and lazy. And we too often choose politician who capitalize on that for their own empowerment. If we, as a society, can figure out how to become competitive again, we'll do well. We already still enjoy more than most of the world...................but do we have the wit and the will to continue to earn it?

Uncle Bob,
Very nicely said, as usual, very nicely said indeed! Thank you for taking time to cover the points, and without bashing any group (except for the politicians, and they deserve to be bashed).

I started to write a response and only got aggrievated. The blame for all this is with the consumers. As consumers, if we would reject poor quality those companies would either have to change or go belly up. Maybe there is a new market segment opening up to produce quality replacement parts. Anyone think this new business would survive? I have a hard time believing it would. Supply and demand - the part pricing should not exceed what the consumer would be willing to pay for it.
My 2cents,
Andy

We need Al Gore to be secretary of commerce and straighten up those factories polluting the worlds air over there.