I knew it was coming, just didn't know when. It will be interesting to see how it actually plays out.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/EPA-ap...95536.html?x=0
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I knew it was coming, just didn't know when. It will be interesting to see how it actually plays out.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/EPA-ap...95536.html?x=0
no worries. lots of pumps here in NY have had 15% blended for a while now... but we can get Ethanol free from independent stations if we choose also.. my '74 VW Super Beetle runs just fine on 15%. I can even afford to run it on 93 octane, which being air cooled, it does run better on
saw the article also. what a stupid thing to do. not only will my car fuel system not like it but the price of beef and corn based products are going up to. dumbasses
Even 10% where I'm at causes problems especially in the summer (vapor lock/heat soak) and unfortunatly in the local area there is no non-ethanol gas.
ya aint seen nutin yet. told ya so ted
same here mike. i go through a fuel filter a month.
Other than fuel system impacts, my biggest gripe about ethanol is the lower energy value - mid grade gas is 125,000 BTU/gal while 10% ethanol blend is 76,000 BTU/gal - that's a 40% loss in energy with a cost differential of a a few per cent, if any. Taking a mileage hit for a lower quality product at nearly the same price does not sit well with me....
Geez, the Comet ran 9.90 with a 2 on E-90 Saturday!!! Don't know or care about the economics and politics of ethanol, all I know is on the street and the track I can again run 12.5 CR and higher and not have to pay thru the nose for race gas..... Ethanol isn't all bad, folks. Like most things it's just another political toy to toss around and keep the rest of us from realizing the real political problems are the politicians, not the product they support or badmouth!!!! Make sure your blame is cast in the right direction!!!!
Sure, it's a political issue, Dave, and I'm not bashing the product. What galls me is that we basically are having the choice taken away (politicians), and they (politicians) are not openly communicating that we get less value per penny with the product. If the decision was to add 10% soy milk to every gallon of milk sold, and you had to hunt for a specialty outlet to find 100% cows milk I would have the same concerns. The whole ethanol situation was not evaluated completely, and many, many people have been hurt by the push to "go green" with ethanol - those who invested in the ethanol plants that are not economially viable included. Like Barb said, if you switch all of the agri output to ethanol then prices for food skyrocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
'nuff said, off the soapbox.**)
What a great idea, lets burn our food supply in our cars!
Pat
Absolute truth, Rog.... But the same crap has been going on in politics over many, many "products" for better then 3 decades now.. Those in power have discovered that getting the voters to argue about the "product" and/or blaming the "other party" keeps them in office!!! Instead of just running ALL THE BUMS out of office and letting a new batch of first termers see if they can get it right!!! A couple rounds of those of us who should be controlling what goes on in government VOTING OUT ALL THE INCUMBANTS from dog catcher to President might actually get their attention....Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
Don't worry Pat, excellent year around here for crops, yields are ridiculously high and the price at market keeps dropping every day.... Looks like another surplus and subsidy year--and more government control of the free market!!!! When shortages are claimed, be sure to check the amount of ag products held in surplus storage by the government before you buy into that lame argument!!! Being an ex-farmer and a current land owner, got to admit I enjoyed the subsidy checks for over production and the resultant surplus...but I also consider it to be "hush money" to keep us farmers and land owners happy!!!!!! Your government at work.....:LOL::LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Cool
I agree with you about having a choice. But on the other side of the argument, is it better to get the other 5% from our own country or raw product imported from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc.? Just sayin' . . . .
I just read this past weekend that someone is perfecting the refining of people and dog poo for automobile fuel. I bet the porta john folks will be happy:whacked: Hmmmm. Now, let's see, which car at that light is using McDonald's fryer oil and which is using the.....:eek:
On 100% gas my truck will average ~11.5-12.0 in stop and go driving. On 10%+/- ethanol, lucky to see 10 - 10.4 and driving like I have an egg between my foot and the gas(?) pedal
Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Glad to hear your having a good year in your neighborhood, but this is a global thing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/bu...er=rss&emc=rss
Having a grand daughter with corn allergies, we have discovered that corn seems to be in just about everything. Burning it in our cars will have an impact on availablity(less) and cost(more) of our food, count on it!
Next question is, will mid grade gas disappear as stations are required to have an E15 or E85 pump?
Pat
I used to get pure ethanol.
Thought the floor of the shop looked soft and comfy, figure I'd take a looksee. Wife thought I was dead four hours later.
Might as well put it in the fuel tank seeing how I can't do anything else with it.
Guess we'll just need to redesign our fuel systems.
Drew
As I mentioned I figured this was coming, so on the current project I'm doing a few things to hopefully help;
no sock on the fuel pickup 'cause I don't know how the higher blend will affect that.
constant fuel return to prevent heat build up in the fuel lines,
A brass float in the carb, (hopefully the tip on the carb neddle will live or I'll end up going to a steel neddle and seat).
Here is a Bulletin from SEMA SAN with more details
http://echo.bluehornet.com/hostedema...03221F8B00D693
SEMA SAN is a free action network that all car enthusiasts would benefit from joining. They keep us up to date and help rally support or opposition to the benefit of our hobby.
Pat
aside from the lack of fuel economy we need to:
1. Replace fuel lines to something alcohol resistant like SS
2. same with any fuel tank switching valves
3. Needle and seat in carb
4. Need a real time Pyrometer or Air/Fuel Ratio gauge
5. Fuel cooler (I'm thinking an old external transmission cooler from the junkyard. Could mount it in the incoming flow or in a return line if you have one, we used to do this with Detroit 2strokes anyway).
not an insurmountable problem, but certainly something to keep in mind for any future builds.
Drew
I don't know how many of you belong to the SEMA Action Network (SAN) but I have for quite some time. They have been very effective in defeating stupid and irresponsible new laws introduced in legislatures throughout the fifty states that negatively impact car enthusiasts. I would encourage anyone to join that is not a member.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Cool
Wanna explain what the heck you mean by that?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Louey
So, now we should all blame each other, blame the farmers, Republicans blame the Democrats, Democrats blame the Republicans and ad nauseum....:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Ethanol isn't the problem, global food shortage isn't the problem, the dang idiots that folks keep electing to go to Washington over and over again are the problem!!!! But as long as they can keep us fighting amongst ourselves they'll be able to save their jobs, their health care, their insurance, and their retirement!!!!!!:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Vote out ALL INCUMBENTS, send the buggers a wake up call!!! Take our country back from the damn thievin' politicians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh well, forget it, probably too late anyway, might as well argue.
I hereby blame Bush, father and son, for everything that is wrong in the world.:p:p:p
Well gee, does this mean that I should quit running it in my old shop truck like I have been for the last 5 years too??? All I had to do to it was a bit of carb work and change the plugs..... Lots of us have figured out how to make E-85 work on the street without spending a fortune and saving lots of bucks on the price of fuel to boot, a bit over 50 cents per gallon...Quote:
Originally Posted by Louey
My point is, I can run 12 to 1 CR or better on the street, and buy my fuel at the pump for considerably less then the price of cheap regular....if that makes me an idiot, then so be it!!!!
20+ years ago 10% ethanol started showing up around here... Some whined and complained, the rest of us learned how to make it work.......guess we'll do the same when it goes to 15% ethanol, too.
If you don't believe me and want to see the dyno results of what E-85 can do in a hot rod or race car, there's a shop in Watertown, SD converts cars to E-85 a bunch... Might want to examine what can be done with this fuel before you bad mouth it too much!!!!!!
Here's a link to the shop in Watertown, SD that does some really superb work with ethanol powered cars. Thought some of you might want to get some info on it---if it's here to stay, then might as well make it work!!!!
http://www.dynotuneusa.com/
Whatever you say, Louey.... though I would like to see some real data that sez 8 fillups will kill the engine.... voids the warranty?????? Far as I know, there is no E-15 at the pump yet, except on the select your blend pumps some stations have..... so, as mentioned, sure would like to see some proof on your stats....
I also run it in the Mustang on the street, 12.5CR. Put some in Sunday afternoon. The 104 octane E-85 was 54 cents per gallon less then 88 low octane regular.......
By the way, I spent $200 bucks to change the carb on the drag car to E-85, included 2 pulls on the dyno at Andy's.... I'd say a very worthwhile investment....
Ya know what Loey, I don't really give a rip if you believe me or not. There's Andy's link.....check it out...Call him.... Ask him what he can do with E-85.... Ask him if the Ford boys from Madison put 500 horse to the ground with a 460, .030 bore, and a custom grind cam..... Do some research, check out the octane rating on E-85. Our home blended E-90 for racing is 106 octane and cost us $2.15 a gallon to mix..... E-85 summer blend at the pump has been averaging 103 octane which is more then enough to support 12.5 CR.....on a properly built engine with the correct components.....
After reading a few more articles on this it really seems this is no more than the typical election year crap given that the it’s currently up to the service station whether to carry the product or not. If there is no demand, there will be no product.
It’s what will happen in the future that I wonder about. Now that the door is open how long will it take for the EPA to rule that E15 (or even higher concentrations in the future) will not hurt older cars, or that the number of cars that it is harmful to is too insignificant to worry about.
As far as the effects here is what my personal experience has been. I live about 75 miles south of Tucson and all the gasoline sold at the stations here is trucked in from there. As Tucson is one of the 2 areas in the state that requires emissions testing, several years ago it was mandated that during the winter months only oxygenated could be sold. Rather that carry a blend for Tucson and non-blended for out laying areas, everybody got E10 in the winter time.
That first winter I was keep very busy with things like fuel filters and carburetors (primarily needles and seats). A large number of carburetors I had rebuilt the preceding year had to be redone because of the needles were not compatible with even E 10 (some more than once). I ended up eating those jobs……that was money out of my pocket. Eventually the aftermarket caught up and the needle tips were made compatible for the fuel AT a 10% LEVEL.
Fast forward to last summer. We started getting E10 all year round. All of the sudden cars I never had a problem with suddenly developed vapor lock and heat soak problems…….let me tell you how much fun it is to sit on the side of the road on a 105 degree day while the fuel system cools.
Now as far as the performance gains that could be had with ethanol……. that only seems to apply provided the engine compression is raised to take advantage of a higher octane fuel. The problem lays in the fact that the octane DOES NOT go up with E10 (and I doubt it will with E15) because they just start with a lower grade base stock. You don’t see an octane increase at the local pumps until you hit E85.
Ok I could build a higher compression E85 only engine…..I’d love to except…… the last I looked there were only 17 Stations in AZ that sold E85. Yes there is 1 in the local area, so it would work great as long as I never drive farther than say a couple of hundred miles away from home (and always start out with a full tank). A cross country trip from where I’m at to say Ill (a trip I usually make once a year) would not be possible for an E85 exclusive vehicle.
As far as the cheaper cost……that seems like a rob Peter to pay Paul thing to me. Without the government subsidies and mandates for oxygenated fuel any alcohol blended fuel becomes priced out of the market.
Yes, we adjusted to unleaded gas, and we adjusted to E10 and I have no doubt we will adjust again to whatever the new reality becomes. It doesn’t mean the new reality is a good idea.
What is the octane rating on your E-10??? Sounds like your distributors are horsin' things around significantly!!!! E-10 here is always mid-way between low grade regular and premium, usually 88 octane (checked it with the old hydrometer a number of times).
Good morning Dave, all the fuel sold here is E 10, Grades are labeled 87, 89 and 91. That is EVERY Station.
Wow, almost sounds like the problem would be with the base fuel before the ethanol is added, Mike.... All the weird problems you're encountering with carbs has never been an issue around here with E-10--and as I stated been running it in a very wide variety of cars for better then 20 years!!!! Any of the problems with ethanol came when the stations were dumping ethanol fuel into their old tanks, and the ethanol loosened the crud inside the tanks.......
Shame on no E-85 around there, sure is a blast running a bunch of compression again in a street toy!!!! There's an ethanol plant about 15 miles from here...rumor has it that occasionally a drum or two of 100% disappears.... Our "home brew" E-90 does better then 106 octane!!!!
It’s a whole different set of circumstances out here Dave.
For instance we don’t see a really big difference in E85 vs regular grade gas. In Tucson right now $2.57 for regular and $2.47 for E85 (remember the E85 has to be shipped here from the mid west). Reduction in fuel mileage on a non-high compression engine far outweighs any fuel cost savings.
Then we also have extreme temperatures in the summer with days of over 100 degree temps (low pressure fuel systems and E anything fuel does not really like that too much). On top of that we are also at 4500 feet above sea level which also contributes to the summertime heat issues with ethanol. Then in the winter time it’s nothing for me to go out and start the car in 15 degree temperatures (E10 doesn’t start as well but not enough to really complain about).
Then add to that I try to set the cars up to also be capable of going from here to the mid west (home town is 200 foot above sea level) with carburetor(s) and a distributor and it can be interesting.
That’s pretty much my reality,, I don't like all of it, but it is what it is and we deal with it.
I do understand what you are saying about the ethanol fuels. A few years back I took my 57 Dodge (iron head 10:1 compression 440) back for a visit. Seems like the Ethanol hi grade was 92-93 octane, that combined with the heavier air with a bit of moisturein it and cooler temperatures made the car seem like it had 50 more HP.
Dave, I'm curious what you mean by "home brew". Can you explain? I have a 12.5 to 1 big block chevy I aquired a while ago and would love to run it on the street. Also I have been reading on E15 and the discussions on how corrosive it is and how it eats into the resin in poly tanks. What are your thoughts on this?...Thanks CRQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Dave,Quote:
Originally Posted by CR55
That statement piqued my curiosity, too, and I hope you will explain a bit about what you guys are doing to squeeze more btu's out of the fuel.
For me the key is not what can be done to make things work, it is that the average Joe/Jane out there is buying a pig in a poke. Sure, you can buy E85 for $0.50 less per gallon, but in that average car, even one set up for E85 like the wife's Jeep is, will take a 15-20% mileage hit which equalizes or often more than offsets the "savings" of buying the E85. Costs less, but you buy more of it more often and in the long run the average Joe/Jane is spending more money for every mile but they never check mileage, or don't understand the math:confused:. Now, if a person has compelling reasons for running E85, like they believe it is better for the environment, better for their local economy, or perhaps they have found ways to offset some or all of the mileage hit by boosting compression, etc then that is a personal choice. One question that comes to my mind is what a person does if they have that modified engine and they travel across the country, hitting states/areas where their "home" fuel is not available? I would think that the engine modified to maximize power output on E85 is going to detonate like crazy on 100% pump gas, even 91 octane which slows the burn to inhibit detonation/allow more compression.
So now, about "home brew"????
Quote:
Originally Posted by CR55
Strictly high compression stuff, figured if 85% was 104 octane, 90% would be higher octane, don't give a rip about Joe average travelling state to state, btu's, efficiency or anything else, we do it for just pure old horsepower!!!!
First, you need access to 100% ethanol, then some pump E85 and a fuel check hydrometer to get your percentage correct...We had help with a Professor from SDSU who's big on ethanol research to get the initial mix correct...but with the product we have available here we can "home brew" pump E85 to E90, load in all the compression we want, then either a top end timing retard or some water-alcohol injection and do, as I said 500 horse at the wheels on a 460 with good heads, roller cam, and (on mine) 12.5 CR....and do it for around $2.00 a gallon.
Never have tried a poly tank, we use aluminum fuel cells, though the plastic RCI tank in the Comet has been there since day one, come to think of it! When the car is going to be parked for more then a couple days, I drain the tank and dump in a gallon of premium gas, run it long enough to get it through all the carb passages, then shut it off. When it's time to go drive the car again, by the time the engine is up to temp, the gas is gone and I'm back on E90. Same procedure worked great years ago when I ran stuff on methanol.... All the cars have aluminum lines and braided hose for the fuel system, carbs are done by Andy (see the link for the shop in Watertown). No idea about fuel mileage or anything like that, no reason to check it for my purposes!!!!
Don't know what's available in other parts of the country, we just took what we could get hold of locally and modified it to work for us.... I'm just out to go fast, not resolve political issues, world hunger, or reinvent some formula for BTU's that has little, if any, significance on how fast I can get to the end of the quarter, or whoop up on the boys Saturday night on the street... I'm just a dumb old Hot Rodder, guess I'll leave the rest of it to the scientist's and politicians!!!!
Nothing personal Rog, but I just don't give a rip about Joe average travelling across the states and getting whatever he gets for fuel... Just what works right here in beautiful downtown Madison, SD. As mentioned in the previous post, had a Professor from SDSU dial us in on getting the fuel to 90% ethanol, pump 85 blened with 100% direct from an ethanol plant....Quote:
Originally Posted by rspears
When I travel across country, the car is in the trailer and the toter is a diesel, no problems. We take our fuel with us for racing. I'm not suggesting that what we do will work in every locale or every situation, just that if it's high octane, costs considerably less then race gas, a good Hot Rodder or racer will, perhaps with some help, figure out how to make it work for him!!!
For those who want to travel cross country and brag about their fuel mileage or cost per gallon, I don't have a clue what would work, and to be quite honest don't even care!!! My diesel does just fine and I have a 2 year old Featherlight trailer for travelling.
My personal experience with 10% ethanol fuels on the street for daily drivers is great, been running it for 20 years in a whole host of different cars with nothing more then normal maintenance... Suppose I'm just lucky....
Nothing personal taken, Dave. My response is directed at the original post that started this thread, which related that our politicians are looking at approving even more of an ethanol dose in our day to day fuel. You are looking at a pure racing application, which is apples and oranges to me. In my mind this ethanol blend fuel is not a good thing, but truth is not being communicated. I do not like to look through wool - it clouds my outlook. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
As I've previously mentioned when this subject came up on earlier threads, I am NOT a fan of ethanol in gas..................I saw too many fuel related problems in the boating industry I came out of as ethanol became introduced into customers fuel systems. Problems like eating up fuel tanks (both aluminum and poly), and components in the rest of the system deteriorating prematurely or clogging up.
Just the other night I bought a car from a guy who sells motorcycles for a living, high end pocket rocket type bikes. He was telling me they are having fits with ethanol warping the tanks on their bikes, and some of the tanks cost $ 2500.00 to replace. :eek: These bikes are made in other countries where ethanol is not used, and as a concession the manufacturers are offering a $1200.00 rebate on new tanks to help out........but that still leaves $ 1300.00 the bike owner must absorb. He said he knows of one gas station in the area that sells straight gas and he drives 30 miles each way to fill up for that reason.
Just found that interesting and thought I'd pass this along.
Don
I went to this website and was able to leave my 2 cents, this stuff is destroying everything I own with an engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike P
The EPA monster must be stopped.
--and in 2011 all 3 NASCAR Divisions will be running 15% ethanol.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
...and they'll be making more pit stops...