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I'm a long time hot rodder of muscle cars. 30's rods are completely different but I want to get into a build.
Given that; I'm a mechanical engineer, father, husband - like most if you, and require planning budget, etc...you get the picture. What would you suggest as my first "custom" rod?
It is always cheaper to buy a finished car, or even better, an unfinished project, and then "make it your own". Beyond that, the choices are unlimited, so you might ask yourself what you especially like, and what you will be using the car for. That may help to narrow down the possibilities.
You might also take inventory of your skills, as hiring out the work could get real pricey if the project required a lot of things that you can't do yourself.
Jay has said pretty much exactly what I would have suggested. You CAN'T BUILD A CAR AS CHEAPLY AS YOU CAN BUY ONE THAT IS ALREADY DONE, OR ALMOST DONE.:) I know it seems strange, but it is true 99.9% of the time. I think most of us on here would agree that if we sold our cars today we would get a fraction of what we have in them, and that doesn't include our time (labor), intangibles like electricity to heat and light our shop while we are building it, and other incidentals like sandpaper, bolts, drill bits, etc that we consume.
I honestly think everyone's first hot rod or custom car should be one that they can simply make changes to improve it and make it their own. Building one from the ground up isn't as easy as it appears, and more cars are sold 1/2 way through the build because the owner is in over his head or discouraged.
Don
Concur with the above - an additional consideration is what I call the "espousal factor". It needs to be "carefully pondered" in as this can be an "expensive" hobby in terms of cash and time. I've got a little bistro table in the garage that works fine for having Joanie sit and read while drinking a cup or so of coffee. Works wonders as I take breaks and we visit.
Just sayin..
Regards and Welcome!
Glenn
Now THERE is a man who will stay married for a long time........he has it all figured out. :):):)
Don
37 years workin' toward forever!
There are two rules in building a Hot Rod that are especially true when building your first Hot Rod;
1. It's going to take a lot longer then you thought.
2. It's going to cost a lot more then you thought.
I've been building them for myself and for customers for 40+ years, and it still holds true today!!!! Not meaning to discourage you, just a couple things to keep in mind when you start your planning phase.......
Everything everyone above said, and you have to really love what ever it is you want to work on. It will take four times as long as you thought, 6x's the cash you thought, lot's of help, and patience. My truck is by far harder than the two cars I stocked out in my youth. Cost a bundle for stuff no-one will see or recognize value in, and make you take break from when your thoroughly frustrated or stymied! That being said, even a partial project can be huge. I'd ask when would you like to enjoy driving it? How much do you want to spend? What level of finish quality/show quality are you looking for? And then I think the other stuff will fall in place.
Runway1, reading your post is me a year ago! Mech engineer, family, etc (last kid out of the house & established on their own ;)) but everything that has been posted is right on. I am four months into my first build, having grown up working on cars, bikes, Uncle Sam's airplanes, for a looong time. As I looked at cars for sale I kept saying I could build it cheaper than I could buy, the only reason the price is so high is they paid someone else to do all the work and are trying to recoup their investment, it's not the way I would have done it, etc, etc, and my wife supported my decision to launch into a build after listening to my reasons not to buy a couple of cars. I followed the Street Rod Builder "Low Buckaroo" '33 build, and convinced myself that I could do that car for $30k or less, running gel-coat for a while, spartan (no) interior, old mustang engine, tranny & gears, etc. Then you start looking at options, chasing reliability, and a hundred other excuses to change direction and before you know it you've bought a new TREMEC (stronger, more reliable, no unknown history.....), a fresh engine built specific for your car (more reliable....), new differential gears vs junk yard (is it really good???), and that sexy new EFI as opposed to old school carb and you have $13k or more just in the power train as opposed to the $1500 donor package that was put into the decision pot to rationalize the build vs buy decision.
Yes, I'm going to be able to point at things and say "I built that part from scratch", but I would have saved a lot of money buying a car instead of launching a build, especially in this economy. You can find a lot of really nice cars out there for much less than they cost to build if you shop around and narrow your search to a specific type & size. One of the hardest parts is making a detailed plan of a build and having the discipline to stick to that no matter what, other than things that don't work.:o
I agree with all this excellent feedback and very much appreciate the inputs. I'm completely aware of the creep building projects take on. I've built several muscle cars and know very well that a complete/near complete car would be far cheaper and much less risky in terms of $$, time and my LEC (Life Events Coordiantor ;>)).
I think with all these good points pulled to the front of my considerations, I'll back off the "frame up" approach for now and maybe look for 80% done car. Thanks all!
Cheaper to find a project already started, but pay attention to crappy work, cost more to fix someone elses screw up. I have bought only one done Hot Rod, Liked it at first, later I couldnt stand it, 75 pro street chevy truck. One problem I have always had with buying a done project, I always want to change it :LOL: If you have all your mech. and Fab., skills, and tools go for it. Then you can build it like you want it, not like somebody else did. Half dozen of one or the other. Either way old cars are cool :D
Runaway1
Now that your looking for almost done projects, pay close attention to things like is this a one owner previous project or multi-owner project. One of my lessons was the truck I bought had one guy who installed the engine and tranny and roughed the floor pans and tunnel, then dumped the project after completely messing things up(i.e engine installed at a 13 degree angle) floor chowdered, etc. Then the guy who bought it was a planner who started stockpiling parts for doing the job the right way, but never actually got to it, so it sat for 7 years!
I had no idea about engine angles, etc. when I bought it. And since it wasn't running I was unable to give it a test drive, check the brakes etc...
So like stated before I figured get the old engine running, and use it as is. Only the old engine was shot, the tranny not working, and the brakes rusted completely through. Then came the slippery slope of if I'm doing all this work to get it operable, better use new stuff and make it worth all the labor and time, well I'm sure you get the gist of it.
If you find someone who has kept a build log, especially with any aftermarket stuff like brakes and suspension,donor engine and transmission years, vehicle, ect.. that info will become invaluable!
I hope this is helpful and not saying what you may already know. It's just exciting to start a new project, and in my case the excitement interfered with making a informed decision! :)
Still love m:Dy truck though!
That is a very good point, that you really need to look at the quality of the engineering and workmanship the PO put into the car. The sad fact is, most of the cars for sale, either done or as almost finished projects, have things done to them that are horribly done. Even some so called hot rod shops turn out some real crap.
But being that you are a car guy already you will know what to look for. Things like goofy suspension setups, boogered welds, BONDO (some bondo is normal, but I'm talking about THICK bondo) and stuff like that. The secret seems to be to have cash in hand so you can pounce when the right one comes up, and also to not be afraid to walk away from a bunch of them until that special one does come available. The old saying is you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet a Prince(ss).:D:D and nowhere is that more true than in the car world.
Keep us posted on what you end up doing, we love to ride along on these adventures.........and we really LOVE pictures. :)
Don
Well, I just have to throw in my two-cents worth. Although I agree with MOST of what has been said above, after reading it all, it sounds very discouraging. If it was so much cheaper to always buy finished cars, none of us would ever build anything and the same cars would just keep changing owners over and over. Therefore, I will disagree with SOME of it. First, you CAN build a car relatively cheaply IF you do everything (or almost everything) yourself and if you don't get in too much of a hurry. You also have to keep your wits about you and avoid buying things you really don't need just because it's the latest fad or high-zoot gadget. Don't pay high prices for things you can make yourself.
I built my coupe. I did absolutely everything myself from fabricating the frame to installing the upholstery. There is no chrome on the suspension; the engine (assembled by me) is very mild mannered. There are parts from 32 different cars (mostly from the local salvage yard) put together here. This car is very reliable, I drive it a lot, my wife and I even took it on a trip through the midwest a few years ago (2400 miles round trip). If I were to try to buy one like it I would expect to pay somewhere in the mid to upper 20's; I built this one for just under $7800. I took my time (3 years), shopped for deals and haggled prices on things I needed, and put it together the way I want it.
The advice above is not necessarily wrong, but both sides have to be taken with a "grain of salt". You CAN build a car reasonably IF...
Here is a pic of my latest project. I have stalled on it recently because I have been doing some home renovation and preparing to build a garage, but when it hits the road I estimate that I will have a bout $4,000 in it...
I agree mostly with everything said. I think the first question you have to ask yourself is what do you really want. And I don't necessarly mean car or truck wise. Is it the pot of gold you seek, or is it the journey? Let me explain, most of us like working on car's (duh). But some love the planning, the design, hunting parts, the actual fabrication. Some do some or all of this because we think it might be cheaper, or you spent it over a period of time as apposed to shelling it out in one lump sum for the finished product. I just finished one, not a high buck deal at all, and now I am kinda lost. I love driving it around, but no big plans. No major fabrication. No parts to hunt. And I kinda miss looking forward to seeing my UPS guy, who I have gotten to know fairly well over the last couple of years, stoping in front of the house and bringing me all those goodies. But then thats why some guys have more projects than they will ever be able to finish. It ain't the car, it's the project. With that said, if its the project figure out how much project you want, a little or a lot? Then apply all the previous suggestions into the mix. They were all very right on. And Good Luck, and of course keep us posted.
I think I'll go cut somthing up.............:D
No question that Jim Robinson is correct that sometimes the advice we give seems to direct someone away from building a car, when we should be encouraging them to do it instead. I often feel like a wet blanket when I tell someone something like "buy one that is already done or almost done." And, I do feel bad about that sometimes too, because I know how it feels to want to build something and the advice being offered is contrary to that.
But the truth is, not all hot rodders are builders. Jim certainly has the unique skills to take one from start to finish, and he accomplishes it at a very reasonable amount of outlay. I've seen Jim's coupe and it is an amazing creation, not just because of the low outlay, but just the way it is engineered. Lots of guys on here share that talent and dedication. However, for every 15 cars that are started, I bet 10 never see the road under the first builder. So many guys start out with this wide eyed enthusiasm and after a lot of time, work, and money is spent they find rod building looks good on paper but is a LOT more demanding than they ever thought. So they bail out and sell it at a loss.
H***, there are times I walk away from a car for months at a time because it gets to me. When I was building my 27 I would get almost physically ill when I would write another check. I'm even tired of dumping money and time into my current projects, at some point you see all the Summit, Speedway, etc invoices piling up and you wonder if it will ever end.
So, my advice is really meant to let the guy look in the mirror and accurately assess his ability to complete a ground up project. It takes a dedicated space to do it, time you can spend (years probably), a good assortment of tools and equipment (and not just hand tools, but welders, grinders, saws, etc.), a fair amount of engineering skill (not just book engineering, but a good basic understanding of what works with what on these cars), and finally, a good amount of disposable funds.
But since some of us enjoy the build as much as the finished product, if you are in that group, go for it. :):)
Don
I feel kind of bad posting my earlier message. I guess what I should have focused on is the importance of deciding in advance what you want, making a detailed plan of attack including what parts are going to be new and what you are going to get from a donor, and then sticking to the plan. My problem was that as I looked at completed cars I always found things that I did not like, and too often they were basic things that would be costly to rework. More and more I got to the point that I decided the only way to get what I wanted was to build, but I elected to start with at roller package. That decision alone costs a bunch, and if you have the tools and knowledge to start with bare frame rails you can save some bucks. The thing that has me over my budget is not sticking to a plan, and in fact not having a detailed plan and detailed budget. It is so easy to go from donor driveline to considering crate engines, and then if you're going to go new, why not custom?? Bottom line, I am having a ball working on my build, and once it is done I'm going to have a bigger ball playing with it and going to cruises, etc. I'm just feeling a bit silly for all of the times I looked at nice cars with asking prices of $35k, $45k, $XXk and saying I could build it for much, much less. Maybe, but I'm in too much of a hurry, and I buy too much stuff from Summit, Speedway, Jegs, etc and yes, I'm on a first name basis with the UPS guy!!
I see all the different perspectives you guys are throwing out and undersand them very well. I've spent 30 years with musclecars and 24 years as a mechanical engineer in so-cal aerospace. That said, I understand very well the importance of planning and scoping the project in detail before jumping in.
The benefit (HUGE) I'm getting from reading you folks is that you're all reminding me of the options and considerations I need to step through carefully - keeping them in my frontal lobe, ya know?. Reminding me to use my skills and experience before my rosey glasses!
What I'm looking for, since his is a first "rod" project, is a weekend driver - not a big dollar show car. Maybe after I retire, I'll do one of those but for now, I want to get my feet wet in the $10k/$15k category with something I can drive almost daily. Primer or hot rod black is fine with me!
You gotta figure out what you are willing to spend, what you can do yourself, tools you'll need to buy (welder, plasma cutter, body tools, etc) all that kind of stuff, and a timeframe that you would like to have it completed in. high quality and fast = expensive, cheap and fast = low quality, high quality and cheap = not fast. Everyone else has given some good input as well, once you decide on a direction, i am sure everyone can help you figure out the best and most economical way to attain that desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by runway1
Personally i would suggest a Rat Rod to test your skills, and you can do those pretty low budget if you want. After that you can decide how much you like the work and move onto something bigger and better! If you want a fast, show quality, daily driver... Prepare to take out another mortgage... haha.
Now that you've had enough advice and opinions to confuse all five senses, you have to decide whether to proceed and, if so, with what kind of car. There are "rollers" available (commercially made frame/ body combinations) that have some of the difficult fabrication already done, but they can be pricey. There are also some very nice reproduction bodies available - they, too, can be pricey. Anything for 1932, '33, or '34 Fords will be about 2 to 10 times the price of anything else, depending on whether it's repro or original (the principal of supply & demand).
When I start a project, I usually find a body first and then proceed from there. I am a school teacher and have never had big chunks of money to spend at one time. Bodies that cost 5 to 12 thousand dollars are out of my reach; $500 to $1,000 is difficult enough for me to come up with in one lump, so that limits what I can build. No matter, lack of expendable funds has forced me to become a multi-faceted builder and I have occasionally bartered chassis fabrication or bodywork for needed materials/ parts. For my coupe I stumbled across a body for $500! It was a "rag", but had a decent pair of doors and included a couple of necessary patch panels. For my roadster, I bought a brand new fiberglass T-bucket body for $640. In both cases, I fabricated the frame, radius rods, and all brackets myself. The pic below is my first hotrod; I was so broke back then (1970's) that I built the chassis AND the body!:eek:
If you want to take a look at what's involved in a build, take a look at my roadster thread: http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30400 Another good one is Don's (Itoldyouso) roadster build: "Project 3K is underway".
Now the decision is up to you...:3dSMILE:
I always have an opinion although sometimes not a popular one. I say because you are an experienced muscle car builder and you are a mechanical engineer, build the car you have always wanted. Most want a 32-34 Ford. But regardless, I think you would really enjoy building it ground up. Heck, these days, most all of the engineering is done for you. Little or no welding needed. It's going to cost more, but you will not have to put up with someone elses crappy workmanship. Plus you can build it your way and have that satisfaction as well. I dont count dollars on my cars. I enjoy the build process. So counting what life deals me, if it takes 6months or 6 years, i am enjoying my car built by me for me. Go for it, you'll enjoy it.