Rearend links- 4 link, 3 link, parellel, angled???

I am building the frame for my 38 Fiat Topolino.
I have looked at pictures, read tech stuff, looked for pictures I saw once but cant find now etc, etc.

I am frustrated and at the point of hanging the rear end and I havnt made up my mind as to which way to go. So before I make that final decision as to what I am going to do, I though I would give you guys a shot at blowing the cob webs out of my head and giving me a direction that makes sense to me.

Here are the issues-
The car is short and the drive shaft will only be about 14" long from center of u-joint to u-joint.
The seats are shoved back quite a ways and legnth of links (or should I say shortness of legnths) is critical just to fit in the car.
Long angled ladder bars is out of the question, no room.
Long parellel ladder bars is not my first choice so I have eliminated that for the moment.
Given the room I have to work with a 4 link would be the best.
I have seen some 3 link setups, if thats what you call them, and that is interesting to me, here is why.
The upper links (in a 4 link) to be 15-16" long ends up into the back of the seats. (no problem with bottom links, enough room down there) and angled is out of the question (yes I can use a panhard bar)
The 3 link systems I have seen puts the upper link slightly into the seats but its in between the seats and that would work.

How important is the legnth of the upper links or link?
Can I make it work with something like 13-14"?

I guess the discussion can start here. I know its a dynamic and complex question but I just had to ask to see what you guys have to say.

Any pictures would be helpfull.
Thanks:confused:

I was going to say mine are 13''-14'' long but after measuring them that's the tube length. the complete bars with rod ends are more like 20''

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...bly3-21-06.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...lerRearEnd.jpg

When we were building the rear suspension for my Dodge truck, we needed a very short locating system, and came up with a custom made set from Suicide Doors. It is a triangulated 3 bar setup, and uses a wishbone shaped upper bar to locate it fore and aft and sideways too. Mine is set up with an S10 rear, and uses their adapter plate to mount the rear of the upper bar, but if you use another rear, like a 9 inch Ford, you can weld mounts right to the housing.

Here are a few shots of mine.

Don

I was hoping you would see this Don, thats the setup I wanted to take another look at.
Does that 3 link work well?

Oh yeah, when I push the truck around the shop it goes nice and straight. :rolleyes: :LOL: I haven't had it on the road yet, but Dan is familiar with this setup from the bagged S10 world, and says it works great. I can't see any reason it wouldn't work ok, and it takes up very little length. Suicide Doors makes some very nice stuff, and they will custom make them to your dimensions.

Don

Oh Yeah, I forgot its not on the road yet. I dont know why, you seem to pop them out like they're easy.:rolleyes:

Please tell me this, when one rear wheel comes up (twisting the rear relative to the frame) is it the bushings that squish to allow it to do that?

Thanks
Jim

Yep, it has more travel than one would think. I have jacked up one side of the axle when working on it, and it goes up quite a bit with no binding. They use these on lowriders and those guys put them through some crazy angles, leaning to one side, etc. On the typical hot rod, the wheels really don't move up and down all that far anyways. Maybe a couple inches at the most.

It really is a pretty simple solution to the length problem.

Don

i use a joint from the jeep world called johnny joints and they work very well.
http://www.redrock4x4.com/shop/categ...1_426_427.html

Here is another one in the Fordor Dan was building originally.

Don

Well you are correct on the sd link setup. And yes we do put these things through some crazy angles. But I have to say that your upper bar total length is in relation to the bottom bar length plus the total of suspension travel. Plus your mouting points are a direct relation to your instant center and bar lengths. Now to get a good handleing car (truck) You need to keep in mind the wheel base length. Because too short will result in great turning capabilities but less straight line stability. And vise versa. One rule of thumb when figuring out what kind of length you will need for your project would be almost 1/3 the length of the wheelbase should be your bar length.

I have one question for you. Do you have the option of running your suspension on the outside of the frame? I design alot of suspension for our industry I can help you out with what we do. I would be more than happy to do that. You can see what we do if you look at some of the pictures on the site under misc pics.
http://www.seriouslyinsaneautoconcep...sc%20pages.htm

Did you say crazy angles?:3dSMILE:
http://www.clubhotrod.com/photopost/...hine_029-1.jpg

Air Shocks and Johnny joints.

Yes crazy angles
so call me CRAZY but what are johnny joints? I have never heard of anything like that.

Here are Johnny Joints

[QUOTE=maddddog]I am building the frame for my 38 Fiat Topolino.
I have looked at pictures, read tech stuff, looked for pictures I saw once but cant find now etc, etc.

What kind of power are you going to be throwing at this Topolino? And what is the endgoal as to where you want it to work best, like street, strip, or both?

we call those super pivots.

[QUOTE=mooneye777]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maddddog

I am building the frame for my 38 Fiat Topolino.
I have looked at pictures, read tech stuff, looked for pictures I saw once but cant find now etc, etc.

What kind of power are you going to be throwing at this Topolino? And what is the endgoal as to where you want it to work best, like street, strip, or both?

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Slightly built 454. Maybe it will make a pass down a drag strip but I doubt it. Its for friday nights and full moons only.:eek:

It will be just a cruiser with a ridiculous engine and looks. Just for fun.

As I slowly move forward I am getting pretty comfortable with a triangulated 4 bar. I have been messing around with the mock-up and I think I can make that work the best. Not exactly sure how to establish the 8 points of contact on the 4 bars, but I am getting closer with my understanding of what does what. At this point the lower bars are 18" center of pivot to center of pivot. The upper triangulated bars will be maybe a little shorter 16 or 17". That seems to fit in the room I have but final attachment points have not been established in my mind. So, in the absense of knowing exactly what to do, I am just making all the bar components with the bars a little long, hoping I close in on the answer by the time they are ready to finish. That should be sometime tomorrow.:D :D
Do you have some suggestions? Love to hear anything you have to say.

Johny joints are cool. Thanks for that 383.:D

Billy Shope was one of the original Ramchargers, a group of engineers at Chrysler Corporation. I have learned much from reading his writings. Here is some of it.....

"I would also add that, when it comes to the angles (as viewed from the side), pay attention to the OEM setups and NOT to the aftermarket pieces. I saw pictures of one aftermarket arrangement which appeared to have the IC behind the axle, which would mean SEVERE squat on launch. You don't want that. If you want to eliminate squat or rise entirely, arrange the links so that lines through them, as viewed from the side, intersect on a line which passes through the rear tire patch and has a slope equal to the CG height divided by the wheelbase. If the intersection is above this line, the car will rise on launch; if below, squat. It's not necessary for either pair (top or bottom) to be level."

he explains further......

"In the side view, visualize a horizontal line through the center of gravity and a vertical line through the front tire patch. Then, a line...called the "no squat/no rise line"...passing through the intersection of these two lines and the rear tire patch.

Finally, visualize lines passing through the centerlines of your links. There will be an upper line (through the upper two links) and a lower line (through the lower two links). If you don't want the car to squat or rise, arrange the links so that the intersection of the upper line and the lower line falls on the no squat/no rise line. If you want it to rise, put the intersection above the line; squat, below the line."

Editors note: Without knowing exactly where the center of gravity is, a fairly close approximation can be made by using the camshaft height as viewed from the side of the car. Sitting down with pencil and paper and drawing the arrangement out to scale will get you in the ballpark.

Thanks Techinspector.:3dSMILE:

I wish I knew how to find some of those lines he talks about. I read that exact piece yesterday.

A picture is worth 10,000 words. Any idea where to find that kind of stuff sketched up?

What techinspecter has said is very very true, But on an equal note you are looking for a cruiser. Even though what he has said is crucial you are not starting with a race car or even a daily driver car in the end. I know you will have to work with what room has been given to you. What he said would be great to start with if you didnt have anything started and wanted to design a great handeling car from the start. Take your bar lengths you have start with some mounting (where you think they can go) and move the rearend assy to see what happens, with your pinion angle, and shock movments. After all said and you think is done. I dont know what fabrication or design skills you might have but I think you might have a rough time with what He has given you to do. Now I hope you best of luck. There is alot of great information here. You will be the guy that will have to decifer all the info. Oh and a triangulated 4 link isnt a bad setup. Just watch your upper bar angles not enough and there rear will move side to side.

best of luck.

Thanks Stormstyle.
I have good fabrication skills and equip. The angles on the upper bars will be substantial otherwise the forward mounting bracket will be into the back of the seat.

Well you will just have to remember that you upper bar angles and lower bar angles are all in relation to each other. or your pinion will rise/ dive quickly. That will be a situation to pay alot of attention too. Will this car have air ride or adjustable suspension? Whats the total wheelbase on this project too?

Wheel base is short, something like 93".
No air ride. Coilovers and I dont expect to have much travel. I am leaving 4 inches of travel from ride height before the bump stop.

Too much? Not enough? Please feel free to offer any and all opinions.

Yesterday I made these parts while I try to figure out exactly what to do.

OK, let's say that the wheelbase is 110" and the cam is at 20" above the ground. Let's also say that the center of gravity is halfway back on the car at 55". To nail this down, you'd have to weigh the car and figure front weight compared to rear weight, but we'll use 50%.

Starting with a piece of paper that is 14" long will get this done. We'll use 1/8 scale. Dividing 110 by 8 will give you a wheelbase on the paper of 13 3/4".

Draw a horizontal line on the paper about an inch from the bottom of the paper. This will represent ground.

Line A will be the cam height and will be represented by a horizontal line drawn on the paper 2 1/2" above the ground line. (20 divided by 8).

Line B will be a vertical line to represent the centerline of the front wheel. Draw this line 1/8" from the left side of the paper.

Line C will be a vertical line drawn at the other end of the paper, 1/8" from the right end of the paper. This will represent the centerline of the rear wheel. Now, your two vertical lines should be 13 3/4" apart to represent the wheelbase.

Place a dot on the cam line halfway in the middle of the paper (6 7/8" from Line B and 6 7/8" from Line C). This will represent the center of gravity.

Place a dot at the intersection of Lines A and B. Place a dot at the intersection of the ground line and Line C. Ground/C dot will represent the contact patch at the rear tire on the ground.

Draw a line from the dot at the intersection of lines A-B to the dot at intersection of Ground/C. This will be the squat/no-squat line.

Measure the rear connection points of the top and bottom connections of the links and make dots representing these points on line C (or just forward of line C or just behind Line C, depending on exactly where they are in relation to the rear axle).

Draw a line from the dot representing the top link rear attachment point to the squat line directly below the CG. This will represent the angle of the top link.

Draw a line from the dot representing the bottom link rear attachment point to the squat line at the intersection where the top link line was drawn and intersected the squat line. This will represent the angle of the bottom link.

Measure the length of the actual top link and transfer the measurement to the drawing (link actual measurement divided by 8). Make a dot at that point on the top link line.

Measure the length of the actual bottom link and transfer the measurement to the drawing (link actual measurement divided by 8). Make a dot at that point on the bottom link line.

There, done. Measure the distance from the ground line to the bottom link front attachment point on the paper. Multiply by 8. Now you have the actual measurement from the ground for the front attachment point of the bottom link.

Repeat for the top link.

Thanks Techinspector!!:D
I think I actually understood that.:eek:
I am headed out the door for an all day road trip to pick up my bucket seats otherwise I would draw this out and ask more questions right now.

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I knew there was a science to it but with all my searching on the web, I didnt find it.
I did find a spread sheet that you could enter your numbers in and it had a diagram, but I cant find that now either. Sometimes too much information is not a help.

I will surely have more question when I get back and get into it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DennyW

Here's Billy Shope's web page. Lots of info, and calculators.

http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope/

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DennyW, thats what I'm talking about:D :D :D . Ready made pictures and lots of words in big type. I just took a quick look and was very impressed. I got some reading to do.

I spent a couple hours reading on Billy Shop's page last night.

It almost makes sense too.
Whats your vector, Victor?
It is mostly about racing.
I keep reading that for street use, the setups are slightly different.
I guess I will just have to keep on reading.

See this is why I like this site. I can even learn quit a bit more. This is a great site. Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Yep, it has more travel than one would think. I have jacked up one side of the axle when working on it, and it goes up quite a bit with no binding. They use these on lowriders and those guys put them through some crazy angles, leaning to one side, etc. On the typical hot rod, the wheels really don't move up and down all that far anyways. Maybe a couple inches at the most.

It really is a pretty simple solution to the length problem.

Don

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I got the bushings for the 4 link today from speedway.
They are very hard, like delrin or something.
How are hey suppose to squish when rhe rearend twists?

Ummmm, I don't think they will dog. Maybe a little better than steel-to-steel, but not compliant enough for me on the street. Gimme rubber.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

Ummmm, I don't think they will dog. Maybe a little better than steel-to-steel, but not compliant enough for me on the street. Gimme rubber.

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Where would I get rubber?
I havnt seen it.

Last project, I made my own. Scroll down here to see the Moog #MOK6137 bushing for the lower front control arm on a Chevy pickup. That's what I used. Made my own arms and pressed 'em in.

Don't want any of that poly-shmoly crap.

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/se...76%20Chevrolet

MD, just to throw one more setup into the mix, have you considered quarter eliptic rear springs and a four bar setup? Posies says you can use the spring as the bottom bar if you want, but we elected to use two bars per side. It is a pretty short, simple setup.

Don

We use the delron bushings all the time. They deflect enough for a decent ride.But rubber is the best riding material, But they dont last for a long time. I like the delron myself, Good ride quality.

Techinspector. I know what those are.:rolleyes: I went to that auto parts site and looked at those bushings. How would I find the dimensions on those? I do have an auto store that lets me go through the boxes:D Should I do that? It takes a little time, but I usually find something that will work.

Don, I have the quarter eliptical springs and was going to do that but I came up with a nice pair of QA1 adjustable coilovers. Being the cheapskate I am with time and money (mostly time in this case) I have chosen the coilovers.
Are your bushings Poly or rubber?

Thanks guys

It's all a matter of personal choice and the intended use of the vehicle. If I'm going to build a car that has to perform well at the drag strip or on a road course and hold the supension geometry close to the design figures, then I might use harder material to facilitate that.

But on the street, I will not tolerate the harshness of materials other than rubber. The same way I will not tolerate a shift kit in an automatic transmission on the street. Having my head jerked back on every shift is not my idea of driving pleasure. I'll tolerate it at the drags because that, in my opinion, is what a shift kit was designed for in the first place and I only have to tolerate it for 2 shifts on a 3-speed box.

Here's another for instance on the OEM bushings, these are for a Chevelle upper link at the rear. Go to the boneyard and buy an upper link. Beat the bushing out of it and closely measure the i.d. at both diameters (there's a step in there). Machine a bushing tube to replicate the measurements of the OEM piece. Weld the bushing to your link rod. Buy these Moog bushings at your parts house. Press in new Moog bushings. Fabricate mounts to accept Moog bushing bolt. Enjoy.
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/de...QQMOK5161.html

Bottom line: If you are able to tolerate some harshness in the ride quality and it is important to you to hold the design dimensions close, then use the Delrin bushings you have. If you're inclined toward a smoother, quieter, more compliant ride quality and holding the design dimensions close is not that important to you, then fabricate some bushing tubes and use the Moog rubber units.

Don, I
Are your bushings Poly or rubber?

Thanks guys[/QUOTE]


Rubber. BTW, those arms you built really look professional.:)

Don

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

Don, I
Are your bushings Poly or rubber?

Thanks guys

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Rubber. BTW, those arms you built really look professional.:)

Don[/QUOTE]

There are Poly, why? What do you think?

You can see the bars in these shots.
Can I have the upper bar a little inboard from the lower bar?

You can also see the transmission tail shaft, and the yoke on the rearind pinion shaft. Both are mocked up at ride height, but pinion angle is not yet determaned. You can imagine the driveshaft connececting the two.

What do you think about this?
Does this look too extreme?

Its interesting having large rear wheels and a low motor with a short driveshaft.

Yes I did ask this question on another forum, but I have to ask all my friends. Thats just the way I am.:D

Thanks

In the first picture, are these the angles you intend to use on the upper and lower links? If so, the instant center will be below ground. Did you not understand anything I explained from Billy Shopes writings?

If this is ride height, I would be concerned with u-joint angles through suspension travel. Especially in compression. I would think the triangulated 4-link would fit your application better than the parallel setup.