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If you need stainless plates or tube---down the street from us is a company that uses a lot of stainless to roll into and weld to make big tubes---they have a lot of left over quality pieces that I'm always gettig into for projects---if you have a certain size tube or plates you need PM me and I'll see what he has and if he would supply you if you needed larger quantity
mooneye777 the reason it works with the plates in the middle not connected is because you are passing a current through the water. if you stack plates inbetween the current will energize them and again you will have seperated charges across the surface, i cant remember the physics of it off the top of my head. But it has something to do with the flux of the metal and the current passing through it. If you all give me a couple of days, I can talk to one of my professors and find out the correct terminology.
There are high voltage stacks and low voltage stacks. It only takes 1.29 Vdc betwen plates stacked at 3-5 mm separation, so any more votage is just wasting currrent by heating the electrolyte. What you want to do is use all your source votage making gas, and not heat.
Kitz
In addition to the web link that Don posted here is another one on the same subject.
http://www.water4gas.com/2books.htm
I've always like my flames to be on the paint and not under the hood or out of the exhaust pipes :eek: , so I'll have to let someones else take the lead on this project.:LOL: :LOL:
I reluctantly agree with Stovens in that I am interested in seeing plans and learning of results from those who actually build one of these devices but maybe I don't want to try it on one of my vehicles until I have really thought it out. However I have thought of a few additional things I would include.
1. I would add an electromagnetic shutoff valve in the fuel line between the galvanic cell and the carb inlet so as to be off when the ignition is off. I think I would use a cutoff valve currently marketed for propane-powered fork lift trucks; I can get one at the nearby Hanover Air Park for about $95.
2. I would rig the wiring so the cell is disconnected from the battery when the ignition switch is off. In addition I would add a dashboard switch to override that switch so I could turn the cell off and just run on gas both for safety and for easy comparison of with/without the electrolysis in use.
3. I would probably use the idea of about 1 Molar KOH in the cell for conductivity. 1M is about 56 grams of KOH in 1 liter (about 1 quart) of water initially and then just add water thereafter. This may be too concentrated so maybe only 10 grams/quart of KOH would be safer and sufficient for good conductance. For this sort of rough estimate of concentration you could use a 1 liter plastic soda bottle and dissolve 10 grams of KOH in water filled to the top.
4. I might experiment using Eu(+3) salts instead of KOH but I would not use the chloride since as my previous example showed, the evolution of Cl2 (corrosive poison gas, google WWI gas attacks) can occur at only slightly higher voltage than O2 so overvoltage might lead to evolution of Cl2 which would corrode engine parts. So I probably would take a look at using Eu2(SO4)3 instead of the chloride. As I said before Eu2O3 will not work since it is very insoluble in water.
Just for interest here are a few "transference numbers" for positive ions. The values for the negative counter ions are the values given subtracted from 1.000. The transference number is the fractional part of the current carried by a given ion in solution and they are not exactly 0.5 as one might expect! Note that other than H(+), K(+) is very good. H(+) would come from a strong acid like HCl or H2SO4 but that would be corrosive in the same way that battery acid is. The vaues are from a very old text book: "Principles of Physical Chemistry" by Maron and Prutton, Macmillan Co. 1958 (one of my favorites!)
Salt t+(1 M conc.) t- (=1.000-t+)
HCl 0.844 (18 deg. C) 0.156 (18 deg. C)
KCl 0.488 (25 deg. C) 0.512 (25 deg. C)
NaCl 0.39 (25 deg. C) 0.61 (25 deg. C)
NaOH 0.163 (25 deg. C) 0.837 (25 deg. C)
From this brief table you can see that even though each example is a (+1)(-1) ion pair, the ions do not carry the charge equally even though for the current to flow (t+) + (t-) =1. When you get to +2 or +3 positive ions even stranger things happen because of the way the water molecules pack around the ions and in effect a +3 ion like Eu(+3) might drag along as many as six water molecules and thus behave as a much "fatter" ion so I would expect Eu(+3) to have a low t+ value but be available for Eu(+2) catalysis. Until then we see tha KOH has close to a 50% of the conductance and of course the OH- ion will become part of the O2 evolution eventually.
As my understanding goes, the +-+-+-.... series coupled multiple cells up to say 9 in a row would have to be connected in series so they would need to be connected with + of one cell connected to a - of the neighboring cell, ie in series. As I say I may eventually be satisfied with the safety of such a device but I welcome information and results from work by other braver souls in the meantime.
For legal purposes I note that these are only suggestions and you proceed at your OWN RISK although I have tried to think of safety first. There is still a risk of a small explosion from gas still in the cell after the ignition is off and KOH can slowly dissolve human skin!
Don Shillady
Retired SCientist/teen rodder
Then Don, like I've said for the third time now, just google Bob Boyce and read your heart out ............. :LOL:
Seriously, I ain't kidding! **)
Kitz
Kitz, I did read it once through and it sounds a lot like the stuff I have heard from other inventors who invent their own names. Of course using square wave pulses invokes all frequencies under Fourier analysis just as used in pulsed NMR spectroscopy so whatever "frequency" is the key frequency is in there somewhere. I prefer to look at it as simple electrolysis. Maybe there is some sort of a "scouring effect" just as there is in ultrasonic cleaning but when he got to the magnetic field effects I noticed the equations dropped off and imagination kicked in. I will reread it more and study it but I have already spent several years in this sort of quasi-scientific explanation and the challenge is to find the truth in there somewhere. Still I have enough experience in science to respect experiments and to puzzle over what is really happening there. I have said all along that maybe there is something good happening there but I have already been sensitized to a number of quasi-inventors who offer unusual explanations for what mught really be something else. My mention of the E(+3)/Eu(+2) rediction of water may seem far out, but it is a fact that it is a sort of Holy Grail in solar energy research so I thought it might be useful in this regard but probably Boyce is not aware of that and prefers to use EMF frequencies with KOH but Eu salts might be worth looking into in the future.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Kitz, I read more and the only thing new I got from it was Boyce's claim of generating monoatomic H atoms, presumeably by first producing H2 and O2 and then dissociating the H2 into 2 H atoms. Yes, H "free radicals" are very reactive but the energy required to dissociate H2 into 2 H atoms is about 0.1744 hartrees which converts to about 2.373 volts! I have not read enough to understand how Boyce came up with the frequencies shown in his oscilloscope display but it is clear that his use of 555 timers to create the frequencies requires some small power requirement in addition to complexity of the device. Using a square-wave pulse does solve the problem of finding the best frequency since a square-wave includes ALL frequencies according to Fourier component analysis. Of course it would be great to create a more reactive form of H and the additional energy required to dissociate any diatomic H2 into atoms would seem to be only about twice the voltage for slow electrolysis, but one wonders how the H atoms would remain monoatomic in the presence of other H atoms and O2 molecules. I would think the H atoms are so reactive (in sophomore Organic Chemistry it is a mantra that free radicals are extremely reactive) that it would be a good idea to keep the path to the engine as short as possible. I could look up the reaction cross section for 2H-> H2, but while I suppose some H atoms could survive a path of several feet into an engine, I would guess most reconvert back to H2. From what I can read so far Boyce admits his "discovery" of a resonance effect is still a mystery. For me I can only conculde so far that IF (?) there is a some component of monoatomic H, it would be best to keep the path to the engine short. The writings by Boyce seem to be more oriented toward all of the fuel being from the (H2 + O2) fuel gas as compared to the interest here in extending the mpg of existing gasoline powered vehicles. Frankly, I hope the the Aptera succeeds and maybe the price will come down?
http://www.aptera.com/
A further thought in edit mode is that it would seem to me that if the path from the generator to the engine is long, a meter or more, it would actually be better if the H travels as the less reactive H2 diatomic molecule until it gets into the engine.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
here is another idea from the hho experiments, a couple torches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbCWE6ycF_0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJblbj9bnYs
here is all that happened to 5 hho containers from a short. Just blew the caps off, not the entire shop or car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJFq_...eature=related
Lindsey Publications Inc. has two or three books on the subject, one is a very basic set of plans for a hydrogen generator, but the info is there. You can add bells and whistles and make it as idiot proof as you like. Nothing fancy about this one. Sniper
Stan Meyer took this whole hydrogen-from-water process to the next level and actually discovered a way to "fracture" the water into its component elements very quickly. He built a VW dune buggy and then a Ford Escort that both ran completely on water. You can see the videos about him on Youtube; just do a search for Stan Meyer. Unfortunately, after refusing a one billion dollar offer from middle-eastern oil for his patents and later signing a contract with the U.S. military to do more research, he was murdered...:(
:rolleyes: