test results back from hydrogen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Tech1, Good to chat with you. For some reason my popup blocker will not allow me to read your other message but here is a GUESS at what the catalyst may be. In the later years of my research career I worked on lanthanide compounds which have a number of unusual magnetic and electric properties. Elements 57 to 71 increase in the number of electrons in a "4f" shell which can hold up to 14 electrons based on the parent of the row in the periodic table beginning with Lanthanum, No. 57, hence the name "Lanthanides". The 4f electron shell is not tightly bound so the electrons are in a "soft" electronic environment and they are close to being "free electrons". The compounds containing these metal ions have pale colors and tend to be strongly magnetic, often more magnetic than iron. In addition the whole row of these 14 atoms tend to be +3 ions and studying the chemistry of them shows them to all have very similar chemical properties with +3 ions. In fact when these elements are found in nature they are all together since they have similar chemistries. The U.S. has limited amounts of these elements found along the Ariz.-Calif. border at Mountain Pass, but China and India have vast deposits. HOWEVER, a principle in atomic Physics shows that half filled shells are particularly stable and the middle of the row is Gadolinium which has 7 (unpaired) electrons in a half filled shell and it is particularly stable and is essentially colorless in the human eye range. NOW, consider Europium which is just one electron less than Gadolinium but is still a +3 ion which means it has 6 of the 4f electrons while Gadolinium has 7 (half of 14). You have to remember that electrons are -1 charge so adding an electron (from current) to Eu(+3) makes it into Eu(+2) by neutralizing one of the + charges. Soooooo, after this long lesson, it is well established that Eu(+2) can exist where one electron fills in the 4f shell and it becomes like the very stable Gd(+3). It has been demonstrated many times that when Eu(+2) comes into contact with H2O it will react with the water to directly split it into O2 and H2! There has been a lot of research in Israel, where there is abundant sunlight, to use the Eu(+3)->Eu(+2) reaction due to some reaction with sunlight and then to make O2 and H2 when the Eu(+2) contacts water. This is one avenue of research to improve solar energy efficiency and I am sure there are quite a few papers on this peculiar property of Eu(+2) compounds. Note if there is a + ion in solution there has to be a - ion somewhere in there too or you would have "lightening in a bottle" so there is some sort of chemistry which has - ions along with the Eu(+2) but the real business part of the compound is the Eu(+3)/Eu(+2) part. Sooooooooo, I AM GUESSING that the powder is probably EuCl3 and is probably pale purple or mostly white with a slight pink/blue tinge and during the electrolysis some Eu(+2) is generated in the solution of water and as soon as the Eu(+2) is formed it cleaves H2O into H2 and O2 and is itself oxidized to Eu(+3) but then another electron comes along due to the current flowing in the cell and it becomes Eu(+2) again ready to cleave some more water while the amount of Eu(+3/+2) remains constant and stays in the cell and is not consumed. That is the definition of a CATALYST, a material that enhances a reaction of other things but is not consumed itself. Soooooooooo, I am guessing the catalyst is EuCl3 or some other Europium compound. If I am guessing correctly and this type of "Hydrogen on demand fuel" device gets the safety problem solved there may be a demand for Eu greater than the U.S. Mountain Pass site can provide and Eu may become a strategic material and trade of lanthanides from China may be big business. Interestingly there are a lot more research papers about lanthanide chemistry in China than other places because in China they have so much of this stuff that they have folks researching how to use it, but if Eu(+3/+2) takes off you ought to have stock in Moly-Corp which owns the Mountain Pass U.S. site. Unfortunately I have little funding to invest and am on a fixed income. Well you asked and you pressed my button on ten years of research so I am giving you my best guess. I am guessing the compound is the trichloride of Eu, EuCl3 as Eu(+3)Cl(-1)3, which is water soluble while another common form of Eu is the oxide as Eu2O3 which is about as soluble in water as brick dust! You can buy EuCl3 from chemical supply houses and it is not particularly expensive (yet) or particularly poisonous, but don't eat it or drink the solution (Hah!)

In return for this potentially useful information can anyone tell me where to drill the holes in a '29 Ford firewall for the rods that hold the radiator?


Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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:eek: :eek: :eek: :whacked: :whacked: My head hurts now....joe

Tech1, thanks for the suggestions on mounting the radiator rods. As Wemdog said, at 12 volts water should electrolyze easily but usually in the lab demo one would add a little H2SO4 to increase conductivity. Thanks for the mental exercise, I was just thinking of adding a little table salt to increase conductivity but then you and Matt mentioned kits with a "catalyst powder" so it reminded me of work on Eu(+3/+2) which will add conductivity as well as some catalytic action. This afternoon I decided to walk the 100 yards down the street to see my neighbor Dick Ivey because I had not seen him all winter. It turns out he has just finished a complete restoration of a 1930 Model A Fordor that looks like new! He said he has been working inside all winter 8-10 hour days to finish the car and that is why I had not seen him till now when the weather is nice and his garage door is open, who knew? Anyway we measured the spacing on his 1930 cowl and found the rods were up about as high as the rounded part of the cowl allows and the centers seem to be 11 3/4" apart but the 1929 cowl may be narrower. He came up the street to see my progress and he seemed mildly amused by the SBC350. He also helped me figure out the set screw on the "Quail" I just got from Speedway for my Walker radiator. Of course he also has a "Quail" on his Fordor! The Speedway Quail fits nicely on the fake spout of the Walker radiator once you loosen the set screw intended to help align the bird to face into the wind! With his advice and your method I will just space the rods 12" apart in the last flat space of the Bebops 'glass cowl just under the hood lip. Fortunately I just put on one of those "everybody-has-one" Edelbrock 14"x3" air filters on my 600 CFM Edelbrock carb and it looks like the rods will clear the big chrome filter by at least two inches. I mention this because the Edelbrock air filter Part No. 1221 has indented places to punch out and attach a hose inlet about 1/2" ID. It is intended to attach a crankcase breather hose BUT for the present thread it could be the inlet for the HHO mixture of H2 and O2. For me that would be the natural thing to do with a carburated engine, BUT (!!!) do I really want to have H2 and O2 flowing into my air filter for a short time after I turn off the engine with hot manifolds? You could put a switch link into the electrolysis circuit that turns off with the ignition, but HHO gas will still be flowing. Then you could also add a switch we discussed with Brian's siphoned gas into his crankcase in the flow line so that it would also close when the ignition is turned off but there would still be some H2+O2 in the air filter. Hey, I want to use one of these HHO devices but I want to do it in such a way that I don't burn up my 'glass car so I want to figure out some added safety procedures. Mooneye777 points out the small volume of gas in the line but the interior of an air box on an FI system or a large air filter is considerably larger. So let's keep on working on this idea but worry over the safety features more.

I guess Kitz got his post in while I was typing. That was my original thought also to use a salt of a Group I metal like Na or K since it is almost impossible to electroplate out those metals from water so it won't be consumed. NaCl might be bad because it might evolve Cl2 which is poisonous and corrosive. KOH is of course caustic but the K(+) would not plate out and the OH(-) will be lost in the water and become part of it. It is a fact that Eu(+2) will indeed convert water to H2 and O2 but I do not actually know if that is in the "catalyst". KOH should work also. I may have been misled by the comment of someone that the "powder" cost $30 and of course KOH is very cheap but that may be just profiteering. Be aware that KOH can cause serious eye injury so wear eye protection if you use that. If your fingers feel "slippery" when using KOH be aware that it means the KOH is dissolving your skin. I did have one thought as to whether Eu(+3) would plate out on the electrodes as free Eu metal. Trying to "guess" the content of a "white powder" can be tricky! I will look up some Boyce references.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitz

Tech, google Bob Boyce and see what you get. Bob made all this stuff public a while back. The catalysts are Sodium Hydroxide (lye) or Boyce says the best one is Potassium Hydroxide because it does not get used up in the process.

Kitz

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Thanks Jon, there's a ton of good reading there. :)

My head is beginning to ache also, I thought I was out of this game five years ago. I see where Kitz got the idea of harmonics from the Boyce material. There is even a review of the supposed "Top-3" technologies at

http://runyourcarwithhho.info/?id=A115034

I find the idea of monoatomic hydrogen resulting from magnetic fields in water a tough sell but using KOH in electrolysis to produce a mixture of O2 and H2 could work. As with any technology the sensible approach is to take something that works, try to understand it and improve it by extension. If the device mooneye777 has works, my approach would be to improve it and especially to make it safer. I note his plastic device is probably safer than a glass jar. I do know that some of the "Brown's Gas" devices use alternating current, plasma arcs and electrodes which will withstand the higher temperatures of plasma but here we have low temperature DC electrolysis so I think what mooneye777 has is an explosive mixture of both H2 and O2 and with some safety improvements can be a useful device. I stand by the fact that Eu(+2) will reduce water to O2 and H2 but that does not necessarily mean that is the catalyst and in fact I wondered as to whether Eu would plate out as a metal. I will read more of the Boyce stuff but I am skeptical about producing monoatomic hydrogen without O2 and that is still an explosive mixture.
Let's get back to the safety aspect of piping some sort of explosive gas into an air filter on a carburated engine. Maybe all we need is some safety features a plastic electrolysis cell and an Edelbrock 1221 air cleaner with some suitable safety accessories?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

The setups I've seen use a vacuum port in the manifold to feed the HHO. I've had some time on my hands and did a little thinking about this whole idea. If the device uses, say, ten amps, that's 10X12=120 watts. 846 watts is 1 HP, so that's about 1/7 HP. Even without the law of diminishing returns, you aren't going to get any more than that back when you burn it in the engine. If your car takes, say, 20 HP to hold 60 mph, that 1/7 HP is a small fraction of what's required. Even allowing for some catalytic action improving the way the gasoline burns, the numbers just aren't there for me.
It was stated that 12 hours driving used only 4 oz. of water. At 30 mph, that's 360 miles, saving somewhere around 5 gallons of gas. That's asking a lot from a small drink of water!

Here is some electrochemistry data:

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/tuckerman..._26/node5.html

This shows that it only takes about 1.229 volts to electrolyze water to H2 and O2 at 1 atm.

Other data from various sources:

K(+) + e- -> K, E = -2.93 volts
Na(+) + e- -> Na, E=-2.71 volts

Eu(+3) + 3e- -> Eu, E= -2.41 volts
Eu(+3) + e- -> Eu(+2), E= -0.37 volts

This other data shows that at 12 volts water will electrolyze easily but as long as there is water there to electrolyze the other things like K(+), Na(+) and Eu(+3) will not plate out of solution so either of them could be used but what is KOH going to do other than enhance conductance of current through the cell (I note K(+) is actually one of the best conducting positive ions). Note that it only takes 0.37 volts to reduce Eu(+3) to Eu(+2) and that is within the voltage of the 1.229 volts that is electrolyzing the water so that can be going on during the water dissociation. Therefore, while I do not really know what "Catalyst" is in the powder given with some kits, the idea of EuCl3 should be a possible catalyst. Maybe just KOH is worth the added conductivity but I see no other catalytic function of the KOH. As to R. Pope's analysis it means that mooneye777 needs to keep a better log of the amount of water used for how many miles traveled. I have no doubt that SOME (H2 + O2) is formed, but as R. Pope says it seems like a small amount. Since O2 is formed we should also consider the effect of the O2 sensor in the Saturn. This stuff is exciting and interesting but may turn out to be just a pointless roller coaster of hope and disappointment. Still I am willing to keep considering it and I hope Mooneye777 will provide more data.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I have to agree with Don. With a catalyst in the water yes it would make the electrolysis easier, but as he showed it really doesn't need it. The only the catalyst would really do is speed up the electrolysis, and that is what we are going for, more hydrogen in the air fuel mixture, and better mpg. I also agree that Mooneyes data is promising, but needs to be more detailed, and someone posted earlier the only true way to see would be on a dyno, at such and such a speed for a set period of time. I would be willing to try and set this up on my truck if I had a diagram or schematic.

I am also concerned with what Don said in an earlier post, and that this could be very explosive if say you ran out of water in the Galvanic cell ( container with anode and cathode) and a spark happened to occur. Then BOOM!!!! Not Good!!!

A friend of my brother's just built a similar unit for the water/hydrogen attachment. Pretty sure he used baking soda.

Forget the hydrogen...just use saltwater............

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

OK, another factoid. Ultra-Pure water double-distilled from a glass still or run through an ion-exchange column actually has a VERY high resistance in the Meg-ohm range so maybe all we are talking about is enhancing the conductivity of the water to lower the electrical resistance. Baking soda is mostly NaH(CO3) which provides Na(+) for conductance as well as some H(+) but the carbonate will not last long and will bubble out as CO2 and actually contaminate the H2 + O2 to some extent. NaCl and KCl are in table salt and will also increase conductance. K(+) is actually one of the best positive ions for conductance so KOH will work to increase conductance at the risk of skin burns to the folks handling it. Yes seawater would also have good conductance or even tap water from a source near the ocean such as the nearby Suffolk water supply which is potable for drinking but does have higher conductivity than inland spring water. Sooooo, why do some of the kits charge up to $30 for a "catalyst"? Maybe to make a buck by overcharging for cheap chemicals or maybe some attempt to have true catalysis and maybe someone has tried EuCl3 and found it helps a bit? Lowering the resistance of the cell reduces (I^2 R) heating and (IR) drop through the cell so enhancing the conductance is desireable. Sorry to give us all a headache recalling lanthanide chemistry, but what got me on that track was the mention of a $30 charge for the "Catalyst", that is about what a few grams of EuCl3 would cost, but way overpriced for a simple sample of KOH (potash), table salt or baking soda. One last gasp of reasoning is related to the fact that electrochemistry is more complicated than the usual ideas of DC currents in copper, gold, silver or aluminum wires. In AC/DC electrical effects the "wire" is relatively constant and just the electrons move, but in electrochemistry both positive ions and negative ions move through a solution and a serious complication is that +/- ions MOVE AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS through the solution. The all time champ ion in water is H(+) and in the 1930s there was a LOT of research on conductance through water and it is still a topic of some sophisticated research. Still the main problem to this idea is the safety aspect, if that is solved to the level of the present hazards with liquid fuels then this "fuel-on-demand" could take off as a needed supplement to increase mpg. I had hoped to leave this type of technical hassle in retirement and just build a retro-rod for fun but now we have to cope with the high price of gas while Cuba angle drills to get the petroleum under the Caribean; will there be any left if we can ever convince environmentalists that we need the oil?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don...The Saturn's O2 sensor shouldn't be affected, all the extra oxygen will be consumed when the hydrogen burns.
More on the limitations of the pictured device---the hoses appear too small to flow any significant amount of gases. An engine on propane uses a 3/4" hose for atmospheric pressure fuel flow. The pics show, what, 3/16"? 1/4"? And that flow is 1/3 oxygen. A 1/4" hose wouldn't flow 1/20 what a 3/4" would, even allowing for it going to a vacuum source.
I'm enjoying this thread immensely, though it is plowing old ground. Most of this stuff was tried many years ago, even by local people of my acquaintance, and they all reported gains out of all proportion to what could be reasonably expected. A telling point, however, none of these people ever made another one for their next vehicles!
Another somewhat sarcastic thought, even if the HHO is a net stalemate as to actual power through its combustion, at least by way of being neutral to overall oxygen use it does displace some of the valuable gas/air mix, possibly increasing fuel economy a bit by effectively decreasing the engine's displacement!!

R Pope I hate to say it, but the Saturn's O2 Sensor could be affected. Gasoline is made up of many Hydrocarbons ( any chemical compound that contains Hydrogen and carbon and thats it) in fact several hundred because it is distilled from crude oil, and different crude oils have different chemical make ups... Not all oil is the same. So for arguments sake we will say the main hydrocarbon is Octane which has a chemical formula of C8H18. Now when Octane is combusted it follows the following formula... 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 --> 16 CO2 + 18 H20 + HEAT (the numbers in front of each compound are the amount of molecules required to balance the equation). Now this is if octane is combusted at a 100% efficiency. However no motor on the planet has a 100% complete burn, hence why you have O2 Sensors which talk to the computer and let in more O2 for the Catalytic converter to utilize and use to burn off excess fuel and elements. If your computer is thinking some amount of O2 is entering the engine, and you go adding excess oxygen and hydrogen, it will through of the computer which goes back to an earlier post in which stated that you need to tune the computer. If you dont, and the O2 sensor detects the excess in oxygen in the exhaust it will limit the air entering the motor but still use the same amount of fuel. Thus increasing your fuel consumption.

Home manufacture of fuel is a federal crime.
Home made fuel on a public highway is a federal crime.
Home made non approved DOT fuel cell is a federal crime.
Tax evasion is a federal crime...you did calculate the total amount of hydrogen and paid your road tax ..right?
Tampering with a emmisions system is also a federal crime.
Warranty is voided by use of that .

Those are the good points........
Bad points .......
Intent to manufacture a bomb .......
Insurance liability ,you did inform your insurance company about the new bomb ,I mean fuel source ,and its unapproved non DOT certified container.....

Soo lets see here ..........
DOT violations
EPA violations
OSHA violations
FED violations

The interesting thing to me, is we have repeatedly asked for the design, or where Mooneye777 got his. He still has not responded with a purchase place or a homemade design, which means, none of his data is reputable, without confirmation by a second party. Mooneye, step up to the plate with the design or purchase place, until then this is just speculation and guess work. The picture you have posted only shows one hot lead on top, no ground visable, and no comment on whats inside besides H2O. If you provide details for others, then we can all build this miracle device, reap the benefits of it's simplicity, and make this world a happier place. Without the facts, welll..... Thanks, Steve.

There is an easy way to test the viability of the system:

If the fruit jar bong actually produces hydrogen, you should be able to setup a system on the work bench using a 12VDC source (battery charger). The outlet of the bong...er jar will be hydrogen rich if you are a believer. Hydrogen burns clear (since there is no carbon) so watch out.... light the output pipe and it should sustain a flame OR explode...one or the other. Remember in high school chemistry when you made a test tube full of hydrogen and lit it? It "barked" when it exploded.

If there is no flame, then you have proved that B.S. doesnt burn.

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Originally Posted by stovens

The interesting thing to me, is we have repeatedly asked for the design, or where Mooneye777 got his. He still has not responded with a purchase place or a homemade design, which means, none of his data is reputable, without confirmation by a second party. Mooneye, step up to the plate with the design or purchase place, until then this is just speculation and guess work. The picture you have posted only shows one hot lead on top, no ground visable, and no comment on whats inside besides H2O. If you provide details for others, then we can all build this miracle device, reap the benefits of it's simplicity, and make this world a happier place. Without the facts, welll..... Thanks, Steve.

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Mooneye did produce the source of the plans in his fisrt post, and he also said he will give us the plans as soon as he could get a diagram drawn up. If you search google or youtube you will find thousands of links ,pics etc.

He is not getting rich off this, so why would he lie about it? Im no scienist, but his word is enough for me, if he said it gained mpg, then im willing to try it! There`s millions of theories that science cannot explain, maybe this is one of them.

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Originally Posted by mooneye777

The results are in on the hydrogen gas generator. . This is not a pointing finger, swearing up and down it will not work, telling people they are a fool for believing it would work. Even thougjh you have nothing to base your results on thread. These are actual results compiled from not a 3rd or 4th party, uncle Jeds cousins nieghbors nieghbors brother either. But an actual individual related to this board. You can believe it or not I do not care, but for thiose of us that still believe that someone can still come up with a device that can help in improving fuel mileage, then here it is.

Also keep in mind that I have no monitary gain whatsoever from this, im just a guy living from paycheck to paycheck. Feeling a huge strain from the prices of everything skyrocketing mainly because of climbing fuel costs, and possibly help some other poor struggling soul. This is not the answer only a little help. With all the whinning out of the way here are the results.

The devise was ran on a 4 banger saturn and went from 22 mpg to 36 mpg. It was ran on a Hyundai santa fe. 2 full tanks of fuel and 600 miles later (just yesterday), It went from 21 mpg to a new 32 mpg. The ford ranger is still under test as well as the ford f-150. But I will post them when recieved. It is found that the mass air sensor placement on the vehicle plays a part in fuel ratings. That is still under testing at this time. Keep in mind the internal effects of the engine with proloned use is still a mystery. But hey someone has to try something different, just trying to help out not argue!

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This is the first post. I see no source of plans. I do not question Mooneyes integrety, but would like to see plans, or be provided with info as to where to get the plans he used, to be able to try this myself. Without reproducible results it can't be considered scientific fact. Let Mooneye speak for himself, this is not, I repeat NOT a personal attack. By the way Denny, glad you decided to rejoin us. :D
PS I never asked for anything free, just a source to buy for myself. :eek:
Also if you are quoting a different thread the only other thread I have read on this subject had a bell glass jar kit shown as the source which is not what has been represented by photographs we have been shown.

We are still waiting, still no source or design, so it's not repeatable, until someone else substanciates it. As to needing permission to post, there are links all over this site to products and deals. It's what we do, help eachother out. If I told you I have a personal cure to lowering cholesterol by 50%, and told you I've been taking Omega three fatty acids to do it, you would still not be able to repeat my results unless you knew my base cholesterol, my daily dose of Omega 3 fatty acids, and what my results were after what perscribed amount of time, not to mention my diet, exercise, etc. It's about facts, help and forthrightness.
Let Mooneye respond when he is ready, I can wait. I would love to benefit from 15-20mpg gas improvement. For those who say google it, I say there is a web site out there for everyone, that will provide you with want you want to hear. It doesn't mean the sites are factual or true, even if they contain partial truths. I get this at work all the time, where a patient says well I read on the internet......:eek:

Hey I take that Fish oil to Stovens COOL :) :LOL: **)

Yep, your from the Republic of California!:LOL:

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Originally Posted by shawnlee28

Home manufacture of fuel is a federal crime.
Home made fuel on a public highway is a federal crime.
Home made non approved DOT fuel cell is a federal crime.
Tax evasion is a federal crime...you did calculate the total amount of hydrogen and paid your road tax ..right?
Tampering with a emmisions system is also a federal crime.
Warranty is voided by use of that .

Those are the good points........
Bad points .......
Intent to manufacture a bomb .......
Insurance liability ,you did inform your insurance company about the new bomb ,I mean fuel source ,and its unapproved non DOT certified container.....

Soo lets see here ..........
DOT violations
EPA violations
OSHA violations
FED violations

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I know who he's voting for . Hey Shawnlee 28 what do you think about the NRA ? :LOL: :LOL:

ron paul !

He posted the link on the thread about hydrogen systems that he was about to try.

http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36427

Are you happy now?

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Originally Posted by hotroddaddy

http://www.clubhotrod.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36427

Are you happy now?

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I'm most always happy. :LOL:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by robot

There is an easy way to test the viability of the system:

If the fruit jar bong actually produces hydrogen, you should be able to setup a system on the work bench using a 12VDC source (battery charger). The outlet of the bong...er jar will be hydrogen rich if you are a believer. Hydrogen burns clear (since there is no carbon) so watch out.... light the output pipe and it should sustain a flame OR explode...one or the other. Remember in high school chemistry when you made a test tube full of hydrogen and lit it? It "barked" when it exploded.

If there is no flame, then you have proved that B.S. doesnt burn.

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I remember in High School chemistry that when we made the first test tube with hydrogen in it (and oxygen) and lite it, it "Barked" but the second tube had was FULL of Hydrogen and it would not lite.......

Tom in highschool I had a crazy friend TJ who lit balloon full of hydrgen on fire. He said it made a huge boom, I guess his dad put an end to that!:LOL:

Home manufacture of fuel is a federal crime.
Home made fuel on a public highway is a federal crime.
Home made non approved DOT fuel cell is a federal crime.
Tax evasion is a federal crime...you did calculate the total amount of hydrogen and paid your road tax ..right?
Tampering with a emmisions system is also a federal crime.
Warranty is voided by use of that .

Those are the good points........
Bad points .......
Intent to manufacture a bomb .......
Insurance liability ,you did inform your insurance company about the new bomb ,I mean fuel source ,and its unapproved non DOT certified container.....

Soo lets see here ..........
DOT violations
EPA violations
OSHA violations
FED violations

Shaunlee28 as some of your points are valid, I cant help but pointing out some logical holes in your arguments. Home manufacturing of a fuel is a federal crime, unless its bio diesel and you pay taxes. Also by your logic, if you've ever put two stroke oil in gasoline to make gas for a 2 stroke, you are manufacturing fuel at your home. Home made fuel on a public highway isnt a crime if you paid the taxes on it.
The vessel this reaction takes place in isnt a fuel cell, its a galvanic cell. Thats what its called when you use a vessel for electrolysis. Theres no law saying galvanic cells cannot be installed on a vehicle. By installing this on your vehicle you arent tampering with an emissions system, you are increasing the amount of an element already found in out atmosphere. (check out this link, shows what elements are in our air http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/CHEMWEEK/PDF/airgas.pdf)

Also by your logic, that you are making a bomb by installing this under your hood, filling a gas can is the same thing, do you call your insurance company everytime you bring a buddy some gas when he is stranded on the side of the road???? There arent any EPA violations by splitting the Hydrogen from the Oxygen in water, I do it all the time at school and the lab that I work in. I dont see how OSHA would fret over this, this isnt and Occupational Safety and Health Administration concern!!

Just some food for thought!!!

if home manufacture of fuel is a crime then why doesnt the govt stop the sales of home bio-diesel kits made from fench fry grease?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gassersrule_196

if home manufacture of fuel is a crime then why doesnt the govt stop the sales of home bio-diesel kits made from fench fry grease?

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because the kit itself is not illegial to sell, no law saying you can't sell somthing even if it is illegal to use it.. personally, I think, if it saves money, why not use it, cops turn there backs to cars running biodiesel, so I don't think they will make a big deal out of a small Hydrogen generator.

Now, possibly if sombody was making there own E-85, govt migt do somthing, running stills can be dangerous. but then again, plenty of Collage classes are doing just this in there Alt energy courses, so there is no big deal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Pat, I hope Mooneye777 will answer but here is one I found.

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=opmind

They say the $50 deal is over today. I think I could build one from mooneye777's picture except that I do not know where to get that black inlet nipple and I do not know what the black clamp is on the + wire. Maybe folks on this Forum can discuss the construction some more?

Don Shillady
Retired SCientist/teen rodder

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The black thing on the positive is a simple 30 amp fuseable link. the black nipple on top is a small vent tube that opens when a small amount of pressure builds up, in case you leave it on on accident. Like I did for an hour once. Everything was purchased at a large hardware store. If anyone wants the plans we used, private message me your email and I will send them to you. Ive not got it typed out in idiots terms so I could understand it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stovens

The interesting thing to me, is we have repeatedly asked for the design, or where Mooneye777 got his. He still has not responded with a purchase place or a homemade design, which means, none of his data is reputable, without confirmation by a second party. Mooneye, step up to the plate with the design or purchase place, until then this is just speculation and guess work. The picture you have posted only shows one hot lead on top, no ground visable, and no comment on whats inside besides H2O. If you provide details for others, then we can all build this miracle device, reap the benefits of it's simplicity, and make this world a happier place. Without the facts, welll..... Thanks, Steve.

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I know I know, Im slow. Ive got a dang full time job they make me work at, Ive got a needy Wife with a mile long honey-to-do-list, A 13 year old child and 2 grand kids that need my attention, Plus a top fuel Harley that needs my love and wrenches, and a big block mustang that I am getting ready to start for the 1st time this spring today. Ive been busy with all lifes crud lately.

My rerply is ...Who would have thought a 14 year old kid would be charged with terrorism from pulling a fire alarm in school......
A personal friend ..who drinks too much, told the police after they arrested him for intoxication .....................His words..." I drive a tow truck and I should just run yer but over next time I see you ....That was a terrorist threat and he was charged with a terrorist threat .

I they wanna bust ya , That hydrogen unit definatly has the potential to be used as a exsplosive device......IED under the hood.
I dont think it will come to that ,but just tryin to elaborate on what could possibly happen if the right circumstances happen.
Tax evasion is the most real possibility.....

Ron Paul for pres!!!!! and I am a gun totin lead spraying machine guns for everyone type of guy,no tree huggin cali non sense for me..

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Originally Posted by stovens

We are still waiting, still no source or design, so it's not repeatable, until someone else substanciates it. As to needing permission to post, there are links all over this site to products and deals. It's what we do, help eachother out. If I told you I have a personal cure to lowering cholesterol by 50%, and told you I've been taking Omega three fatty acids to do it, you would still not be able to repeat my results unless you knew my base cholesterol, my daily dose of Omega 3 fatty acids, and what my results were after what perscribed amount of time, not to mention my diet, exercise, etc. It's about facts, help and forthrightness.
Let Mooneye respond when he is ready, I can wait. I would love to benefit from 15-20mpg gas improvement. For those who say google it, I say there is a web site out there for everyone, that will provide you with want you want to hear. It doesn't mean the sites are factual or true, even if they contain partial truths. I get this at work all the time, where a patient says well I read on the internet......:eek:

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Like I said before, Bob Boyce made all this public a long time ago. There is no need for you to buy 'plans'. Google Bob Boyce, do some reading, and off you go. And hurry before the Hydrogen Police get you. :LOL:

Kitz

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Originally Posted by mooneye777

I know I know, Im slow. Ive got a dang full time job they make me work at, Ive got a needy Wife with a mile long honey-to-do-list, A 13 year old child and 2 grand kids that need my attention, Plus a top fuel Harley that needs my love and wrenches, and a big block mustang that I am getting ready to start for the 1st time this spring today. Ive been busy with all lifes crud lately.

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Thanks Mooneye777! I hear yah. I've made little progress on my projects due to my large honey do list, and work which requires continuing education units!:eek:

I say we all build them, try it for a couple of tanks of gas doing our usual commutes and then get back here and post our results. In my case,:3dSMILE: my 4x4 93 Toyota truck gets 20 mpg no matter what I do. It has for the last 10 years that I can remember. It also has about 170k on it, so it should be a good test vehicle!

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Originally Posted by stovens

I say we all build them, try it for a couple of tanks of gas doing our usual commutes and then get back here and post our results. In my case,:3dSMILE: my 4x4 93 Toyota truck gets 20 mpg no matter what I do. It has for the last 10 years that I can remember. It also has about 170k on it, so it should be a good test vehicle!

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Better yet, after you make one and test it out unhook it and send it to me. I'll do the same testing and pass it on to someone else.:D :D :D

How in the hell do you get 20mpg out of your toyota? I have a 95 4x4, and im lucky if i get 14mpg mine has about 180k on it v6. im gonna make one as soon as possible, and ill know real quick if it makes a difference. My buddy is gonna try it out on his chevy truck too.

It's a gutless four banger, but, the thing is, it's also the most maintenance free engine we have ever owned! 170,000 mile. 1 clutch changed at 55k, oil changed regularly, and thats it. Nothing else!:D

Thanks to Jon's suggestion of googling Bob Boyce, I've been reading non-stop. I still don't understand all of it, but the gist of it is this. They're using thin stainless plates of 304 or 316 alloy sandwiched together, but separated from each other. Half the plates are connected to (-) and the other half are connected to (+). (+/-/+/-/+/-/+/-) and so on. As Don Shillady said, it takes 1.29 volts minimum to effect the breakdown of water into gases, so an array of say....9 of these electrolysis units connected in a series would seem to be about right to divide 12 volts. It's the amperage that does the job, not the volts. Bundling 9 of these together, taking the gases off at the top and running 9 hoses into the bottom of a bubbler would be the safest way the way I see it. Take the product off the top of the bubbler and mount the bubbler as close to the motor as possible. Making the cap for the bubbler just a friction fit, it might just blow off with a little pop and that would be it.

Now, I've just got a little bit of understanding of the current used to do the job. It seems that the key is in the frequency. I was reading through quickly, but it seems there are 3 important frequencies that work. I'm not sure if only one of them would be used or all 3 would be used together. I have some more reading to do to determine the answer to that and also to understand how these frequencies are created. I'm no electronics genius, so will have to pass what I find to some of you who are smarter than I am.

From one of the sites:
"Today, though Bob has gotten out of boat racing, he makes his own PWM3 Controller for Hydroxy torches and gensets. They aren't for sale but you can find the info in files on the Web. The controller uses three 556 Dual 555 timers. Each dual uses one 555 for pulse width and the other for frequency, generating 42,800; 21,400; and 10,700 cps respectively."

Here's a neat video from youtube that shows the operation of a double helix ?? unit......
http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_B...rolizer_Plans/

From Bob Boyce:
"The unit does not use "normal brute force" electrolysis when operating in high efficiency mode. It relies mainly on a chemical reaction that takes place between the electrolyte used and the metal plates, which is maintained by electrical energy applied and stimulated into higher efficiency by the application of multiple harmonic resonances which help to "tickle" the molecules apart. I coined the term "electrochemical reaction" to describe the process and I called the chamber an "electrochemical reactor". I used multiple cells in series to lower the voltage per cell and limit the current flow in order to reduce water vapor production. It relies on the large surface area of the total number of cells to get the required volume of fuel vapor output. In my first prototype of this design, I used a custom built controller/driver that gave me a lot of adjustability so I could experiment with multiple frequencies, voltages, and waveforms individually and compare performance. The result was a pattern of 3 interwoven square waves rich in harmonics that produced optimal efficiency. When I had the basics figured out I realized that I could just replace the custom controller/driver unit with a modified inverter much easier than building one from scratch. When the original controller was stolen at the first break-in, I then experimented using a 300 watt pseudo-sine wave inverter that had been modified so the base frequency could be adjusted between 700 and 800 hz. The stepped sine wave output was fed through a bridge rectifier which turned each stepped sine wave into two positive stepped half waves. Each of these half waves had 8 steps, so a single cycle was turned into 16 steps. The resulting output, while not consisting of intermixed square waves, was still rich in harmonics, and I found it much easier to dial in resonance than trying to tune 3 separate frequencies. The frequency range can change depending on the number of steps in the pseudo-sine wave of the inverter you choose since not all inverters are created equal. The desired effect is caused by the multiple harmonic resonances in the inverter output at higher frequencies. You will know when you hit resonance by the dramatic increase in vapor output. The frequency does vary a bit as to what electrolyte is used, the specific gravity of the electrolyte solution (how much electrolyte to water is in the mix), electrolyte temperature, water purity, etc. Keep in mind that my electrochemical reactor tank was large enough to hold 61 plates of 316 grade stainless that were 6" X 6" each, spaced 1/8" apart, to create 60 cells in series, with the 130 VDC power from the inverter, through the bridge rectifier, applied to the end plates only. That gave 4,320 square inches of surface area, plenty of surface area to produce enough fuel for an automotive engine. The best electrolyte I found for efficiency was potassium hydroxide, and the electrolyte level must be kept below the tops of the plates to prevent any current from bypassing the plates and creating excess water vapor through heating. Distilled water was used to prevent contamination of the electrolyte which would result in reduced performance and efficiency.

I never finished the second unit for any engine run tests because the shop was broken into again and the second prototype and inverter were both stolen. The only testing I had managed to complete before the theft was the tweaking of gas flow while dialing in the inverter frequency. When the theft occurred, the pressure switch and water pump were not yet installed and the water injection port was blocked off with a 316 grade stainless plug. If the thieves tried to use it as it was, the pressure would most likely have built up to the point of the chamber exploding from overpressure, since there was no feedback installed yet to shut down the applied power at 5 PSI. I certainly would not liked to have been around when that much hydrogen and oxygen as well as extremely nasty electrolyte let loose!

Now on to the mechanical details. On my unit I had 316 grade stainless wires tack welded to the tops of the end plates, and tack welded to 316 grade stainless bolts that were through holes in the ends of the container, with rubber o-ring gaskets inside and out, above liquid level. If I remember right cost was over $1000 on the 4' x 8' 316 grade stainless steel sheets and having them sheared into the 6" x 6" plates by the vendor. That was for enough plates to build 3 prototypes plus some extras to make up for the rejects that are typically unavoidable when trying to obtain precision cut material from a supplier. Inverter output was to be switched on and off to the plates by a 5 PSI pressure switch on the side of a tee at the water injection port. There was a PVC spray bar attached on the inside of the chamber to the water injection port with tiny holes drilled along its length on the underside to supply replacement water evenly to the cells when the water pump was switched on. A backflow prevention valve on top of the tee would keep the gas from flowing back into the water lines. It was originally planned to add an electrolyte level sensor arrangement to automate the addition of replacement water but that point was never reached. Water consumption was fairly slow so it was not hard to keep track of manually. There was a mat of interwoven plastic fibers (air conditioner filter material) cut and fitted on top of the plates to help prevent sloshing. Make sure to use plastic and not fiberglass mat, which could cause a severe reaction with some electrolytes, like potassium hydroxide."

We built one with the multiple plates like tech says, except we made one a ground and one a possitive at each end, and used a couple sandwiched in between with rubber washers so they did not touch the possitive and negative. In the 114 page book we now have, it said to do this and not connect the center plates to a powered source, and somehow they work as a neutral, and it did produce more gases. After reading some of your posts on here, I know we got some smart people here. Alot of this is way over my head, (O.K., all of this) Im the kind of person that cant think it through and just instead does it to see if it works.

Im not the guy that says, hey see if you can shoot this gas can off my head with this bow and arrow, but just a step below that is me. The plans I sent out to people who asked for them stated the internals of the tube with a generic idea in the building of the unit, but every version is the same principle involved. I did leave out that the tube we used was 10 inches in length, and 3 inches in diameter.

And I think there is a better way to do this now that we have the plated version. But weve only ran it in a bucket not a car. In the 114 page book it lays out a detailed list with part numbers for all sensors and gadgets, so you can monitor cylinder temps at all plug tips, fuel quality in and out, and also a way to adjust it from the drivers seat. But its like 500 dollars to build it and a lot more smarts then ive got. I sent the book to my dad and he will probably give it a shot someday. All I know is im not willing to ride a moped around just yet.