Question about model A seat

Hey I think I had a good day today. After the shock of a $200 price for a gray Caravan seat with a large pipe underneath I thought I would try another junk yard so I set out this morning before it got too hot and paid the $2 entry fee. Well I found at least 8 Caravan small seats, they are really quite plentiful here (Chesterfield Auto Parts). You get a red "CAP" hand stamp when you pay the $2. There were so many that I looked for a nice one and I brought it home along with a "small" spare tire from a Dodge V8 car which had the five bolt pattern. The total cost for the spare and the seat came to $34.09, what a deal! Anyway C9x and Brian have been very helpful on this thread so now I need to figure out whether to somehow cut off the bottom of the seat or add some sort of 3/4" rod across the frame under the seat to fasten the stock hooks. The seat is a little dirty since it had two tires stacked on it and had the usual collection of straws and other kid junk in the crease but it has no cuts and hopefully can be cleaned up and used "as-is" for some time since I probably will paint the car maroon as well. Maybe if I use the stock hooks and don't chop the top the seat will be the right height and I won't have to mess with the base? This also means I have to figure out a way to put the gas tank somewhere else and maybe the best thing to do is make the tank the shape of a rumble seat and just put carpet over it and add a foam back rest inside the rumble lid. I also learned that the stock rumble lid drains into a gutter below the bottom edge and if I plan the tank shape right that gutter wall could be the stainless back of the gas tank. The gutter gap of at least 3" also would provide a space so a rear collision might not crush the tank. On the receipt the actual price for the seat was listed at $10.99 with a $2 core charge (???) and with the $2 entry fee that comes to less than $15 for the seat. The spare was actually more expensive because they itemized the wheel and the tire separately. Well I am going back to Chesterfield Auto Parts the next time I need a junker part, what a deal!

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

I had to rush off after posting the picture of my $15 seat, but I have questions. If I don't chop the top and don't mess with the base how about running a threaded 5/8" or 3/4" steel bar through holes in the frame under the floor and cutting slits in the floor for the stock mounting hooks? I would then glass in a cup of some type under the body around the hole in the floor to limit water spashing up through the slits. Note the seat came with full seat belts attached to the base of the seat. I guess the seat will be higher this way and maybe rule out a chopped top, but my wife not only has back problems but also knee problems so a very low seat will not work for her. She says the normal seat height seems OK and since she seems to like the factory springs and even the maroon color it might be best to just mount the seat close to the stock height and use a stock set of top irons and windshield for head room?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don, Save me from re-reading entire thread but I assume you are using Caravan seat as front seat? I have one as rear for my 29 Tudor. I took the mounting legs off the seat. I mounted angle iron across the front and back using the same mounting holes the legs were in. The end of the angle iron are fit over some 1 1/2 x 3 rect. steel which sit on the side subrails. Not sure if this helps with mounting in your case. It let me make the seat back more vertical which I wanted to do.
Are saddle tanks an option?

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Originally posted by Don Shillady

C9x, I checked out the HAMB site you mentioned and I was very interested in how you mounted the battery box on your '32. Maybe I could do that on my '29 but boy oh boy the situation with the muffler is tight. I am surprised you do not have a problem with exhaust heat against the battery but even more amazed that you got itall tucked in that tight space. Any further comments about that battery box would be helpful. I suppose it would be best to put the box in first and then adjust the length of the header pipe to the muffler so it just clears the battery box. Conclusion: put in the battery box BEFORE the muffler?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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Definitely put the battery box in and then install the exhaust.
Depending on your frame and rear suspension there's probably more room than you think.
(I ran myself out of underbody room on the 32 pretty fast. Lesson learned and the 31 is gonna be laid out better.)


The battery box is 1/2 x 1" rectangular tubing.
It's mounted to the frame by four 3/16" horizontal tabs drilled for 3/8" bolts.
The tabs are welded to the battery box.

My 32 has a couple of additional crossmembers - one is 1 1/2" x 2 1/2" x .120 wall with threaded bungs welded in on top for roll bar laterals and seat belt mounting.
It also has threaded bungs welded underneath for the battery box.

The 2nd crossmember isn't a crossmember so much as it is a convenience.
It's 1 1/2" x .120 wall tubing with a two bolt plate on the ends.
(Looks very much like a spreader bar.)
It bolts to the frame's threaded weld bungs with 3/8" bolts a bit forward of the rear axle.

The tubing has four threaded bungs welded in that face forward.
These are for the tailpipe hangers.
Four of them give me some options as to transverse placement of the hangers.

The tubing also has a couple of threaded bungs welded in that face down.
These are for the rear tabs of the battery box.

Removal of the box is easy, just spin the bolts out and lower the box straight down.
The cables are long enough so that the battery box can sit on a couple of 2 x 12's - it won't quite reach the floor when the car is on jackstands.

The battery box has an 18 gage stainless plate sitting on the inside bottom of the box.
Above that is a sheet of 1/2" thick neoprene rubber to stop vibration etc.
On top of the battery is a couple of 1/2" thick neoprene biscuits - about the diameter of a 48 Ford motor mount biscuit - and a 1/4" x 1" aluminum bar compresses the neoprene just right so the battery is well captured.

The aluminum bar is bolted on by a couple of 3/8" bolts with nylocks that go through a couple of 3/4" round tubes drilled 3/8" + welded to the longitudinal top bars - in the middle - of the battery box.

When the 32 was first running it had a pair of Walkers long straight Turbo-Mufflers - the ones that look like glasspacks with many dimples so there was no problem with fit.
There is no packing in these so-called mufflers and the sound level is about the same as running a straight pipe.
Crummy sounding to boot.

Next set of muffs were a pair of glass-packed Turbo-Muffs which sounded good for a long time.
These muffs fit quite well and there was no heat shield on the battery box at the time.
Since the underbody location is cool compared to under the hood, the original Die-Hard battery only required water a couple of times over a 3-4 year period.

Later on, when the T-muffs got overly loud I stuck on a pair of FlowMasters.
The two chamber version which was quiter, but still loud.
An H-pipe helped here.

The FM's were larger so that's when the heat shields were installed.

I like quiet cars with a nice mellow exhaust tone and to that end the plan for the 31 is a pair of FM's three chambers.
I have a pair of these on my 2002 Ford SuperCrew with 5.4 liter engine and they sound nice.
Very much like some of the fondly remembered glass and steel-packs from back in the day.

Seems like a lot of guys today like straight exhaust systems or one with minimal mufflers that are very loud - and then wonder why the Gendarmes pull them over.
Or wonder why the neighbors are pissed.

It's not about the noise, it's about the music....

Another option I've thought about as far as fuel tanks go is to cut the trunk floor and mount a rectangular tank that hangs down a ways and also sticks up a ways.

The tank would be mounted behind the rear axle and as you know there's not a whole lot of room there, but it looks like you could have one that doesn't stick up or down too far and still have 16 gallon capacity or so.

The trunk floor would be reconstructed so that the fuel tank is completely outside the car.

The battery box in the 31 will have to be mounted inside the trunk if I go with the inside the frame dual tanks in front of the rear axle previously mentioned, but that would be ok.

It would be another 1/2 x 1" rect tubing - can ya tell I like rect tubing? - with a molded fiberglass cover that would be carpeted when the truck is upholstered.

Part of my thinking with the 32's battery location was to get a heavy weight down low so as to get a lower C.G.

If I do the under-trunk tank bit, I'll probably mount the 31's battery same as the 32.

38racing, yes the seat is for the front. I have ruled out saddle tanks due to my long bumpy driveway so I have to figure out something to put into the trunk.

C9x, thanks for the discussion of the battery box and the fuel tank. It looks like I may have to cut out at least part of the trunk floor to get a tank in there but maybe the hump has to be there over the pumpkin so I need to do some careful measurements in the trunk area.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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Originally posted by Don Shillady
C9x, thanks for the discussion of the battery box and the fuel tank. It looks like I may have to cut out at least part of the trunk floor to get a tank in there but maybe the hump has to be there over the pumpkin so I need to do some careful measurements in the trunk area.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

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I have a Brookville 30-31 body and I'm not sure it's the same floor as the stock A or not.
It probably is, if you order the A body for the A frame.
Brookville is very good about making A sheet metal that bolts onto original A's.

My body is the 30-31 for the Deuce frame.
The trunk floor is different, but to what extent I don't know.
I do know there is a channel each side of the trunk so the 32 frame can fit up in there.

If you're running coilovers in the rear or a flatter 40 Ford style transerse spring you could make up a flatter floor.

Your 29 body trunk floor looks very similar to mine.

Here’s a pic of my 31's (32 frame) rear crossmember and transverse spring.
The main leaf is a SoCal item, but it’s my understanding they don’t sell the main leaf by itself any more.
Not too big a deal, any spring shop ought to be able to knock one out.
The remaining springs are from a 40 Ford.

I expect this car to ride better than my 32 with it’s coilovers.
Coilovers are limited in travel - like in, not much - and adjustment.
Spring rate can be an expensive proposition as well since you have to buy a new pair of springs.

The transverse spring has more adjustability available and height adjustments are easily made
Spring rate can be altered by adding or removing leafs and height adjustments can be made by changing the thickness of the spring pad between crossmember and spring.
What you see in the pic as far as a spring pad goes is simply a wear pad.
The car will probably get a 1/4" - ½" thick spring pad depending on what’s required.

Fwiw - in an attempt to gain every last 1/8" in clearance for the panhard bar which is between rear crossmember and diff pumpkin thick walled tubes were made from 1" cold rolled, drilled for the ½" bolts, the crossmember milled to fit the 1" OD tubes allowing the bolts to come in and almost touch the spring front and rear.
Lotta work to gain 1/8", but it was worth it.

You can’t see it, but there’s a Deuce Factory sway bar in there as well.
It was a tough packaging problem, but it all fit . . . eventually.

The only limitation to travel is the shock length and travel which is easily changed.

To top it off, the shock is mounted with the same style heavy wall tubes a coilover is and the lower shock mount is in fact a coilover mount.
Kinda goes against what I said about coilovers, but at the time I thought I’d set the car up to be easily changed over.
I try to plan ahead for a lot of this stuff, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t and sometimes it never gets used.
Regardless, there’s not a lot of time and work expended if you do this kind of stuff when the car is under construction, but changing things on a finished car is a whole other ball game....

C9x, thanks for the pictures, you have a very neat setup although as you say it is really tight underneath there. You may have told me something important about the coil springs. If you look at my picture of my seat you can just see the adjustment knob on the right rear coilover. I think I need to remove the coilovers and swap them side for side because as they are now I may not be able to adjust them after they are tucked into the pocket in the 'glass floor so I will swap them to be able to reach the knob after the floor is on. What I want to check on is that you are saying the coilovers are much firmer and with less travel than the transverse spring. That is important if I reduce the height of the floor hump to make room for a fuel tank. I have already jacked the coilover mounts into the highest setting because I think I will need tire clearance and I expect to keep the coilovers in the highest mount setting (upper of three holes). On a previous Model-A project I messed around with a '40 Ford rear application, but at this point I plan to keep the coilovers and if there is less travel, sobeit and that leaves more space for a flat flooor and a tank seat in the rumble.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

C9x, your pictures have been very helpful. I bought a heavy duty battery box from Speedway but I will have to add angle iron brackets to get the battery top below the underside of the frame, but the bottom of the battery box will still be above the four-bar bottom edge so the battery will be protected. Your comments about a heat shield for the battery are interesting, maybe I can insert a sheet of aluminum on the muffler side of the battery.

38racing, this thread is supposed to be about the Model-A seat and thanks for your comments, I am just beginning to appreciate how to lower the seat and add an angle-iron frame underneath. Apparently I got the same color Caravan seat as C9x and it is comfortable.

Brian I have been working hard on designing a fuel tank that will fit under the rumble seat and I think I have it now, although it will not be cheap. I really want to have a rumble seat and now I think I have it figured out. I went to a restored 1928 Model-A Sport Coupe and took some measurements. The front edge of the stock rumble seat is 13"-13 1/2" above the floor with only a seat width of 16" back to the front surface of the back pad whose thickness is about 4" at the bottom of the seat in the lumbar region. I have designed a tank which should hold about 17.93 gallons and has a flat surface 12" above the flat floor, 7" of which is above the flat surface of the Bebops hump. At 32" wide the tank will fit between the rumble hinges and with a triangular back profile and a small triangular sump at the front the tank can be fastened with tabs over the hump bolted through the floor. With a minimal 3/8" plywood cover and about 1" of foam the covered tank should "look like" a rumble seat and function at least for children in a parade. I plan on specifying heavier 14 gauge stainless for the tank for added strength when someone sits on it but the plywood and foam cover should distribute the load over the top of the tank. Interestingly one of those small spare tires from a Dodge with the proper 5 holes for my wheels easily slides in front of the rumble seat and if I put it on either side there is "full" rumble room on one side. I am not sure whether to use an external "continental" spare on the outside like a stock Model-A, especially using a "small" tire, it might really look odd, but I could cover it with a cloth cover and modify the bolt hole pattern on one of the readily available aftermarket spare tire mounts so that I could bolt on the smaller bolt pattern. Still with the tank in the back I could use a front bumper from a Model-A all the way across the rear and add one of those luggage racks to gain carrying capability and a stock look without using the small tire on an external mount. Besides the funny looks of a small external spare I am concerned with the strength of the fiberglass lower panel as to whether it would crack with the weight of a full size 15" wheel. Just thinking out loud, any comments? Again thanks very much to C9x and 38racing, your comments and pictures are extremely useful to me. When I get the stainless steel tank back from the fabricator I will submit a picture to explain how I can get 17.93 gallons in that small space.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don---I have never carried a spare tire in a hotrod. I run new tires and trust the highway Gods to keep me out of trouble. As far as the gas tank is concerned, I would be a bit ginchy about having my grandkids riding around setting on a gas tank. If you do put the tank in the rumble area I strongly advise that you glass in an air-tight bukhead of at least 3/4" plywood between the rumble seat area and the main passenger compartment.

Has anyone out there had a problem or seen a disaster with a gas tank leaking/sloshing into the front seat area? How about sheet aluminum around the back of the front seat area sealed only on the bottom edge with glass cloth to the floor. It has already been mentioned that sealing the sides will lead to a "shadow seam" on the outside of the quarter panels. The aluminum can be covered with whatever fake leather material is used for the side panels. Actually I was hoping for some "toe volume" under the back part of the front seat, but this could be covered up to slow down the first slosh of gas from a ruptured tank. Still a ruptured tank is likely to lead to a more catastrophic explosion that would hardly be slowed down by a plywood bulkhead. How about NSRA tech inspection on a rumble gas tank? I plan for a nonvented screw cap with a tip over vent on the passenger rear corner with an outlet hose through the inner part of the left rear fender for venting away from the battery box on the right side under the floor. The outake npt fitting will be on the left rear side so the fuel line will snake forward along the left frame rail and cross over at the crossmember so that the fuel line avoids the battery box as much as possible since it is on the right rear under the floor. The only holes in the floor will be where the tank is bolted down and they will be potted with sealer, possible fiberglass resin to put the bolts in a permanent position with retention of a sealed floor. The fuel line hole will be sealed with a rubber grommet and house sealent. Several folks have mentioned vapors in the closed seat area but I figure if the vent hose is routed out the left rear fender well it will be away from and above the battery box and hot exhaust pipes. Comments? I am learning and thinking. If Tech1 sees this maybe he can comment on what the NSRA Tech check would say about this set up before I commit to it.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

DennyW, Thanks for looking and commenting. Your idea of a heavier upper top layer is worth considering. The stainless tanks are usually made from 16 guage stainless but I was going to require 14 gauge for more strength. However, even with heavier material on the top, the weak spot will be the hole for the sending unit. I guess if I do this I will certainly use a full width Model-A front bumper on the rear along with a luggage rack which might give some protection for the back of the tank under only a fiberglass lid. That will look like the rear of a Model-A which had a fender well spare tire and give a little more protection from rear-ending. Why is Brian so worried about a bulkhead between the front seat and the rumble compartment? If it goes the passengers are gone in any event as far as I can tell. However, I can see that if I put an aluminum sheet bent around the shape of the 1" square tubing it could be screwed to the tubing and covered with whatever fabric I cover the inner panels with. The tradeoff is that the foot space is so limited that it would be nice to be able to put your toes under the backof the front seat. If the bulkhead is for shrapnel protection then thin aluminum will not help much. If the barrier is to prevent liquid from flowing forward then the "toe slot" should be covered up or maybe boxed closed toward the front. What is the main problem, potential shrapnel? Just for the record I just sent back a "Street-race" polyethylene tank that I had bought from Summit because it appeared too flimsy to sit on unless I boxed it in substantially and then it was way too high. Hey! Here's an idea. Maybe I could put 1/4" Aluminum plate on top, front and back of the 14 gauge tank for both protection of the tank and protection of the passengers. Al would be lighter than steel and could still be bolted together for strength. Comments?

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Well this is where I was when the server went down several days ago. Since then I had to go out of town over the weekend and returned to put two days on car construction. The neat thing about C9x's HAMB post is that is is mainly about roadster seats BUT also shows his battery box. In the meantime I have been fooling with the gas tank question and I have used DennyW's idea about some sort of armour plate. The rumble hinges on the Bebops body has two vertical plates to stop the hinges when the lid is flipped back. I have attached a 1/4" thick 4" wide steel bar across the rear of the rumble area just inside the seat area and 4" behind the back edge of the tank so that in the event of a rear collision the rear bumper will be augmented by the 4" wide steel bar and if it is bent it will have to be bent in at least 4" before any contact occurs with the tank. I am negotiating with Rock Valley to fabricate a tank of about 16.7 gallons capacity. Then I started work on a battery box to be mounted in a similar way using a heavy duty battery box from Speedway. I have measured several batteries as to height and 8" will do for batteries with side connectors but the top edge of the battery box hits the frame bottom in such a way that the battery bottom will be 9" below the top edge of the frame. I have looked at the HAMB picture C9x posted and see that his battery is at or above the bottom edge of his right rear four-bar and that will be so on my frame as well. However, it looks very low to me. Considering that my clearance on the front axle is only about 4 1/2" I guess on a level road the battery will be above that but if the right rear wheel goes down into a gulley or deep tire track it looks like my battery box will take some grief. I had no intention of running the Baja with this car but this clearance limit is just one more limitation to a boulevard cruiser.
I am also reading the HAMB posts from C9x on Caravan seat mounting so this thread is about roadster seats, gas tanks and battery boxes now I guess.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder