71 Camaro engine choice advice

I'm out of money at the moment and that means I do too much thinking, and our exchanges with 84 monte didn't help either. As I mentioned before, my plan was to put an LS in my Camaro and that is still on the table but here is where my mind is playing tricks on me. It's been mentioned b/f that gen 1 small blocks are disappearing from muscle cars and getting replaced with LS's at a fast rate for the obvious reasons. Well today a 16 yr old kid showed up at work after he got his 6.0 power stroke back from the shop with a 64mm turbo, larger injectors, exhaust and a tune. He was getting around 500 hp to the rear wheels. That's when it hit me, this kid's dad is an idiot, and the days of a jacked up Camaro ruling the road are over, factory cars and simple tunes are putting out numbers we used to dream of. That's when I started thinking, maybe I should leave the 350 in the Camaro. I know it's not the original block but all the early 70's stuff is still under the hood and it could be a good candidate for more of a restored look that a retro mod, which there is no shortage of. I don't think this car will get driven as much as the 53 and if it does, I will be driving it more and I don't mind carbs. I would still put on some good flowing heads, intake and exhaust, and shoot for the 350 hp mark to keep it nice and driveable. I have a 700r4 trans for it already and if I put some 3.73 gears and it would still be a fun car. Just thinking out loud, I know dollar for dollar, the ls is a better motor but that may not be my goal anymore. Not in a hurry yet but I should keep my eyes out for parts I may want. Here's a pic so you can see how its decent survivor. What say you ?

You can do a LS with a turbo for the same money as that SBC and have more power. Maybe more work, but that'd be more fun to drive IMO. But it's your car, don't listen to this fool. I see no power brakes and a teeny carb. Out with the old. :LOL:

In all seriousness, you could buy a 300hp crate engine for around $1250 from jeggs or summit when they go on sale and that will be plenty for a cruiser and keep your factory AC there. That is a big feature IMO.

PS, don't worry, that 6.0 will be back in the shop soon even if it has head studs. :LOL: Besides, he probably just spent a minimum of $5k for injectors, turbo, and the labor. Powerstrokes eat money quick.

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

You can do a LS with a turbo for the same money as that SBC and have more power. Maybe more work, but that'd be more fun to drive IMO. But it's your car, don't listen to this fool. I see no power brakes and a teeny carb. Out with the old. :LOL:

PS, don't worry, that 6.0 will be back in the shop soon even if it has head studs. :LOL: Besides, he probably just spent a minimum of $5k for injectors, turbo, and the labor. Powerstrokes eat money quick.

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Ya, he put studs in it, spent 6K on it. Glad to hear it will go again. I usually don't wish that on people but not a big fan of the people I speaking about. I could really go into detail but I'll just leave it at that.

I know money wise it's not going to be a whole lot different, it more of is the car too original to screw it up. ( aside from dumping the 2 barrel and adding power brakes ) So your vote is heck with the old school and in with the new. ( without a turbo though :LOL:)

I looked at Summits turn key motors and I noticed they use R4 A/C compressor. If that's how their engineering team thinks, no thanks :LOL:

If you keep the small block, seriously consider a retro fit roller cam. Howards has about the least expensive ones I've found and they allow you to run a stock distributor gear. I know flat tappet cams are still around, but they do have problems with modern oils. Having an engine that sits a lot makes the problem worse IMO because the oil film on the cam lobes pretty much dries up between starts and results in dry starts.

The crate engine I would go with is the L30 Vortec replacement. It's about a grand more than the cheap GM ones, but comes with Vortec heads and a roller cam. The only downside is the need for a Vortec intake and a "Melonized" distributor gear.

Of course, now you're getting squarely into LS money. The salvage yards have plenty of 5.3 truck engine/trans combos and it's very hard to do any kind of decent rebuild on a SBC for what you can get an LS for. Especially when you start talking roller cam and new heads. The power potential of even a 5.3 LS is the simple reason they're taking over. The SBC currently sits right where the Flathead Ford did in the late 50's. Don't get me wrong, I love the small block and have enough stuff laying around to build a couple of engines if needed, but probably won't.

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Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5

Well today a 16 yr old kid showed up at work after he got his 6.0 power stroke back from the shop with a 64mm turbo, larger injectors, exhaust and a tune. He was getting around 500 hp to the rear wheels. That's when it hit me, this kid's dad is an idiot, and the days of a jacked up Camaro ruling the road are over, factory cars and simple tunes are putting out numbers we used to dream of. What say you ?

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Mr. Spears and I were just having this very conversation. It's amazing the numbers achievable when I think of all the money I tossed into a motor to gain a mere fraction when compared to todays LS or Coyote setups. Retro is ok I guess.. but horsepower gains with a simple tuning change is just to cool! :LOL:

Just like the flathead, the king is dead... long live the king.

You need different dist gear with a roller cam?

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Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5

You need different dist gear with a roller cam?

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In most cases, yes. Most aftermarket rollers are made from steel cores and will wear a stock cast iron gear out. Damaging the gear and the cam. Bronze gears are available, but tend to have wear problems, too. The bronze gears just don't wear out the cam. There are also composite distributor gears, but I can't comment on those.

GM roller cams can use a specially treated cast gear. The Melonized gear has a surface coating that makes it compatible with the cam core. The GM cams will also wear out a stock cast gear.

Some aftermarket cams have cast gears pressed on and can run stock distributor gears. Howards uses specially treated cast iron cores for their roller cams and can run any gear.

From the input here and the opinions of the guys at work and from the weird look from my wife when I mentioned keeping the 350 in the Camaro I think I'll stick with plan A

Hotrod46 gave you some strong advise. I always run zinc additive in my engines. Except my 7.3, International was smart and put roller cams in them. All the Cummins small engines are flat tappet. Common rails have narrow lobes and are known for eating tappets too.

This entire LS thing is tough for me. I'll spend a boat load to have a 400hp 354, but can have 800hp with a LS for less money more than likely. I keep telling myself it is supposed to be a cruiser, leave it alone. If I can get this 68 Buick in Oklahoma I found purchased, it'll get a junkyard 5.3, cheap turbo, and I'll daily drive it. Haha Once again, the train is off the tracks. :LOL:

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

Once again, the train is off the tracks. :LOL:

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That seems to be the way all these projects wind up.:eek::3dSMILE:

I'm a bad person, I've searched and called a few places the last few months just to get a ball park idea of what I'm going to have to pay for a LS1 engine and trans setup. It's going to be about 3500-4500 depending on mileage and it's kinda weird that ebay is way cheaper than local stuff. I started thinking what would a whole 98-02 Z28 car go for? A quick craigslist search found that I can get a whole car with around 100K miles for around that 5K mark. If I get the whole car I can use the drivetrain, coolers/fans. The front seats are almost a bolt in for the gen two, mine doesn't have a counsel so I could possibly use that and who know what else. Then sell the rest as a roller or part it out. The "am I a bad person" comes in where I buy somebody's pride and joy and chop it up for parts :LOL:

Seth, some must die so others can go on! LOL..

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Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5

I'm a bad person, If I get the whole car I can use the drivetrain, coolers/fans. and who know what else. Then sell the rest as a roller or part it out. The "am I a bad person" comes in where I buy somebody's pride and joy and chop it up for parts :LOL:

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I have those same thoughts when I enter a contest to win a new Mustang or Corvette...I think, "Wow! That Coyote or LS would be an awesome setup for my '37 or my truck or countless other old vehicles that way more cool than that new one!" :eek::LOL::LOL::LOL::D:D

Seth I’m more into the nostalgia/sleeper stuff so take this with a big grain of salt. Personally my first impulse would be to throw a mild Big Block in it.

My second choice (and the one I’d really more likely do if I was going to drive the car much) would be to use a 350 or 383 with a good set of cast iron exhaust manifolds (something like the repop Corvette manifolds by Dorman or the Sanderson’s. I’d go the sleeper look on the engine. If I went with an aftermarket intake and heads I’d grind off the manufactures logo on the manifold and paint it and the heads engine color. Then I’d either go with the stock painted valve covers and air cleaner or chrome aftermarket ones with a 307 or low HP 350 air cleaner decal.

Basically that’s the formula I used when I built my 77 Mustang II coupe. With the 302 Decal on the aircleaner (and 302 emissions decal on the stock painted valve covers) it looked so stock under the hood nobody picked up on the fact that it was really a 351W with Edelbrock heads and intake.

By the way if you do go the fist gen SB route those old A6 AC compressors are about bullet proof, they draw a bit of HP but will last as long as about anything else …..and a lot better than the R4s that replaced them.

Like I said just my 2 cents.



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LS engines are getting overdone, because they are easy HP.. SBC's still get done because everybody knows them and has at least a spare part or more..

So, take the easy out of it... I'd build a 250 I6 with a turbocharger. You'll get some decent numbers out of it. The 250's did come in Camaro's and it would catch everyone's eye

If you wanted to piss people off, you could use a Toyota 1JZ twin turbo engine which are dirt cheap right now. Course it won't sound quite right

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Originally Posted by Mike P

Seth I’m more into the nostalgia/sleeper stuff so take this with a big grain of salt. Personally my first impulse would be to throw a mild Big Block in it.

My second choice (and the one I’d really more likely do if I was going to drive the car much) would be to use a 350 or 383 with a good set of cast iron exhaust manifolds (something like the repop Corvette manifolds by Dorman or the Sanderson’s. I’d go the sleeper look on the engine. If I went with an aftermarket intake and heads I’d grind off the manufactures logo on the manifold and paint it and the heads engine color. Then I’d either go with the stock painted valve covers and air cleaner or chrome aftermarket ones with a 307 or low HP 350 air cleaner decal.

Basically that’s the formula I used when I built my 77 Mustang II coupe. With the 302 Decal on the aircleaner (and 302 emissions decal on the stock painted valve covers) it looked so stock under the hood nobody picked up on the fact that it was really a 351W with Edelbrock heads and intake.

By the way if you do go the fist gen SB route those old A6 AC compressors are about bullet proof, they draw a bit of HP but will last as long as about anything else …..and a lot better than the R4s that replaced them.

Like I said just my 2 cents.



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I'm not really a big block guy, to me they always seem like their a lot of iron per horsepower vs small block. I'm still a little on the fence on what to do even though my mind was made up yesterday :LOL:. I don't even know why I'm trying to figure it out already cause I got a lot of work to do to the car b/f I need a motor. It's kinda good to keep an eye out for parts I guess. Against all input I still haven't ruled out running a sbc for the nostalgic reasons like you said. I found out I can get a running 97 vortec about 2 miles from here for about $400 and that comes with the pickup. I found that I can put valve cover adapters the run the 4 bolt covers on the heads to hide the fact that their vortec heads, if they don't notice the intake. Then I would just put an intake, cam and long tube headers on it. I don't know what it is about this car but it seems like its not a cut and dry decision. Like you said , that old school A6 compressor is pretty awesome on there too. I'll go take my ADD pills and let you know what I'm thinking tomorrow :LOL:

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Originally Posted by Matt167

LS engines are getting overdone, because they are easy HP.. SBC's still get done because everybody knows them and has at least a spare part or more..

So, take the easy out of it... I'd build a 250 I6 with a turbocharger. You'll get some decent numbers out of it. The 250's did come in Camaro's and it would catch everyone's eye

If you wanted to piss people off, you could use a Toyota 1JZ twin turbo engine which are dirt cheap right now. Course it won't sound quite right

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That would be cool and different, but I think I'd miss the V8. A Toyota powered Camaro, that's wrong on so many levels:LOL:

A 6 cylinder with no spark plugs would be sweet. LMAO! Since you don't want to do that kind of work, that Vortec 350 isn't a bad idea. I was watching hot Rod garage the other day and they put on one of holley's newest fuel injection kits on a car. It is the HP EFI Stealth. The throttle body looks like a 850 Double pumper. It looks pretty trick but is kind of pricey. Another thing you could do is get a FItech set up and put a 4 barrel manifold on the vortech 350. Then you'd have a roller 350 with fuel injection. But, I don't know how many of your stock brackets would work then.

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Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5

That would be cool and different, but I think I'd miss the V8. A Toyota powered Camaro, that's wrong on so many levels:LOL:

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Not really that far off.. NUMMI built cars jointly for Toyota and GM 1984-2010. The FWD Nova was a Toyota :LOL:

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

But, I don't know how many of your stock brackets would work then.

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You just rained on my parade, I never thought of that with the different intake mounts. The brackets were a key part of going with the sbc. If I do quick math in my head , keep it all looking old school, I'd have to rebuild the old 350 therefore making it a 383, aftermarket heads, roller cam kit, intake, Fi tech, I'll be well over a LS1 price and that ain't worth it either. I'll check into the twin turbo Toyota or a Cummins.

Do they offer vortec heads with old style mounting provisions? I know you have a welder, modify them to work. :LOL:

How about a Ferrari engine in a Camaro? Well actually a Firebird. At least one of the prototypes for the 2nd Gen was actually shaped based on Ferrari styling cues and built with a Ferrari engine.

Here's a link to some pics and a story.

1971 Pontiac Firebird Pegasus Concept Images. Photo 71-Pontiac-Pegasus-Concept-DV-12-AI_01.jpg

Supposedly, when the GM brass found out about the Italian power plant, they wouldn't allow it to be displayed at any of the auto shows. That's not in the story I linked to, but I remember reading that somewhere. It's a neat car and I'm glad it wasn't destroyed like many concepts.

It does have an interesting feature that could be incorporated into the right car. The air cleaner is attached to the hood so that when hood is raised, nothing gets in the way of viewing the Ferrari engine. Could be a cool feature with the right engine.

That's a pretty neat car, I can sure see a blend of different designs that were used. I wish they had a pic of the rear to see if it had round lights or Firebird or later gen II

I think I'm going to put this whole motor thing on the back burner for now unless something I like falls in my lap. I'm finding myself spending too much time looking and trying to figure it out when It will be awhile b/f I need it. Thanks for the input so far though.From the info on here I think at the very least, a non roller came sbc probably won't happen and so it will be between a running Vortec or a LS1. Maybe I'll invent a quick coupler so I can have the LS down the road and the SBC when I show people the engine.

Go buy this and then think on it. :LOL:

https://desmoines.craigslist.org/pts...225237265.html

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

Go buy this and then think on it. :LOL:

https://desmoines.craigslist.org/pts...225237265.html

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I hate you:mad: Ok, educate me on the LT1, is it an orphan. I did look at them and their cheap but I know nothing about the Tuned Port thing. ( ps, gotta be an automatic, I got sick of shifting the T/A ) :)

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Originally Posted by 53 Chevy5

I hate you:mad: Ok, educate me on the LT1, is it an orphan. I did look at them and their cheap but I know nothing about the Tuned Port thing. ( ps, gotta be an automatic, I got sick of shifting the T/A ) :)

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OK, ok, I'll buy the 6 speed from you. :LOL: Click this link and go about 3/4s the way down the page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevro...2.80.931997.29

I wouldn't say they are an orphan. They were used in a lot of street rods in the 80s-90s. These were the LS engines of that time frame IMO. They get really decent mileage as long as you have a 700r4 or equivalent trans, and were pretty reliable. These still used a dist instead of the opti spark like the 94 up ones. That is probably the worst part of the later LT1s of this ear. I've heard the only down fall is getting special tunes made since these require a burned chip but I've only ever messed with stock ones like these. I had a couple 95 up ones but they changed the intakes on them.

It isn't a real muscle car without 3 pedals is what I keep getting told....... :LOL:

Man, this guy is crazy. Don't these things run hot? :LOL:

https://desmoines.craigslist.org/pts...272950546.html

Here's another option for you that isn't too far away. Couple hours?

https://desmoines.craigslist.org/pts...207751175.html

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

Man, this guy is crazy. Don't these things run hot? :LOL:

https://desmoines.craigslist.org/pts...272950546.html

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I think so, I wouldn't trust that guy :LOL::LOL: I'll explain the mess to them:)

I bet the sbc in the Nova is getting replaced with an LS motor.

Just messing with ya. I'm sure you're right about the Nova. It's over priced IMO. No OD trans, deal killer IMO. :LOL:

“……..a non roller cam sbc probably won't happen…….”


THE SKY IS FALLING……..THE SKY IS FALLING :eek::eek::eek:


As it relates to auto engines, I’ve heard this a few times over the last 50 years. The more notable being the removal of “lead” from Gasoline, the addition of ethanol, and the removal of ZDDPs from oil. The first 2 we learned to adapt to/live with (and honestly the removal of “lead” was not a bad thing considering its adverse effect on the atmosphere).

As far as removing the ZDDPs from engine oil, I’m not so sure it’s the end of the world either. Although I’m not really sure that I buy all the hype surrounding the real effect of the ZDDPs removal on cams and lifters I don’t discount it either.

Retrofitting a roller cam to a first Gen SB adds around $1000-1500 to the build. But that’s not necessarily the most cost effective way to go either. All my cars have flat tappet cams in them and a few years ago when the ZDDP started going away, I sat down and ran some numbers about converting some engines to Roller cams. If you think retrofitting a roller cam to a SBC is expensive, price out a kit for a first generation HEMI or 500 Cadillac :rolleyes:


Anyway, if for nothing other than peace of mind the alternative to a roller cam is either a ZDDP additive or specialty oil like Brad Penn. The additive adds about $15 to the cost of an oil change and a Brad Penn oil change is about $40 more expensive.

Assuming;

The total cost of a roller cam retrofit is $1500.

The difference in cost per oil change by using an additive or better oil at either $15 or $40.

Oil changes at 4000 miles

At $15 an oil change for additive the car it will take 100 oil changes before the roller cam starts saving you any money. That amounts to 400,000 miles.

At $40 an oil change for Brad Penn oil it will take 37.5 oil changes before the break even point on changing to a roller cam is reached. That is 150,000 miles.

Personally I use the additive in all my cars and have not had any cam/lifter related issues to include the cars that I take cross country regularly.

1st Gen SBC parts are still about the cheapest thing going out there. Then there is the ease of installation which is that it’s a bolt in to include all you current brackets and pulleys, oil pan, mounts etc. No; sensors to add, computer to wire and calibrate, in tank fuel pump and return line to add etc. As more and more cars are converted to the LS motors it will also become the non-belly button car in the crowd ;)

Then again, you won’t necessarily have the HP numbers, drivability under changing weather and altitude conditions or fuel mileage.

Seth I’m not trying to point you in any particular direction, just adding to the confusion :LOL::D:LOL:


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I do a lot of roller cam conversions for peeps-------best method in the SBC market is to use a one piece seal core block from later years, convert to splayed 4 bolt billet main caps, and stroker crank to the 383-427 cubic inch--I still have a limited supply ( around 40) of the Katec 2 piece billet seal adapters if a person wants 2 piece seal-------

Dart blocks also very good option especially to go bigger cubes

I also think that a lot of cam failures comes from tighter rod side clearances, no oil squirter holes to spray cam, too tight of windage tray in oil pan--etc, etc,etc

Just stir the pot a little more, the Howards SBC retro fit cam and lifters can be had for $625 from Summit. You'll need pushrods and cam button, so call it $750. When you figure in the fact that you will need to buy a flat tappet cam and lifters for a new build anyhow (and pushrods on a good build), the additional cost isn't that bad.

I used a Howards cam because I had a nice low mileage flat tappet crate engine and didn't want to worry about finding additives or specially blended oils going forward. Can't argue with Mike's numbers other than the initial cost. It's just personal choice really and I like to eliminate the potential problem up front. No different than running ARP rod bolts even though millions of engines run with stock ones.

You never know what the EPA will come up with next. Could be that they will try to prevent refiners from even offering oils with ZDDP if they suspect that they are finding their way into new vehicles. Probably not going to happen with the current administration, but what about the next? Remember, they regulated it out of most oils because it was poisoning cats and started all this mess in the first place. Just like the ethanol/carb fiasco.

If I was building a new SBC from scratch, I would just use one of the OEM roller blocks I have stuck back and skip the retro fit stuff. No need for it on a fresh build given the parts choices out there unless you have to have a specific block for a restoration.

I will say that with all the LS engines being used, it's probably a good time to stock up on used SBC parts if that's the direction you want to go. Most likely some good deals out there if you shop around.

I think I'm going to stick with the LS1 plan. I got that 5.3 in the 53 and I love not having to screw with anything. I know the LS1 is a belly button engine but after thinking about it 99% of the time, nobody's going to know what I have in it cause it will be going down the road. There may be a car show here and there, and if I have a sbc in it , whats the reward going to be for being a bit different? It will be some guy who looks at it and says " huh, that's neat ", and then move on to the next car. Doing the math of the pros and cons, the LS1 wins in almost every category. I might pick up that Vortec by me just in case though :LOL:

One thing about the LS fad is, it will be a long while before it goes away so there will be more and more parts available for them later too. Being different will get expensive but that is worth it too. :LOL:

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

......so there will be more and more parts available for them later too.

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You're right 40, but you can get pretty good deals on older LS stuff right now.

I picked up a set of CNC ported cathedral port heads cheap at my local machine shop. They even had titanium retainers and dual valve springs. They had just been serviced when the owner (who is supposed to be a serious street racer)decided to go with LS3 rectangular port heads. They are older heads with the perimeter bolt valve covers and no one wanted them, but they will be head and shoulders better than the stock 243 LS6 heads I was looking for. There's no way I could have ported them anywhere near as good as the CNC mill did.

I'm shooting for somewhere close to 400HP at the wheels and I don't want to use a lot of cam to do it. I think the heads will help a lot toward that goal. We'll see how it works out. GM was able to get good HP with fairly tame cams in the LS6, so I'm using that as my benchmark.

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Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

One thing about the LS fad is, it will be a long while before it goes away so there will be more and more parts available for them later too. Being different will get expensive but that is worth it too. :LOL:

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There's no shortage of LS parts, it a full blown after market paradise with them now. Being different is more expensive and I think I just got a little gun shy with my had to be different experience with the whole 348 thing. The 350 is not anything like a 348 so I should get over that. I talked to the guy with the vortec and It runs fine, it started using a lot of gas and then blew a brake line so he parked it. It has about 160K on it which isn't too bad. My brother has 260K on his and its going just fine. I think I'll grab the Vortec for sure because they don't seem to be as plentiful as the LS motors for the off chance I'll change my mind again. I've always wanted a 383 :rolleyes::LOL: I think I'll quit posting what my mind is doing hour by hour and stop annoying the the crap out of everybody including myself.:)

You're only doing the same thing as all the rest of us! At least twice a day I think I should rip out the 347 and maybe stuff in a Coyote or maybe do another FE? Or maybe...... sigh... We're with ya' brother!!

You're not annoying me! Helping spend your money takes my mind off my projects for about 5 seconds. :LOL: