Thread: 71 Camaro engine choice advice

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Just messing with ya. I'm sure you're right about the Nova. It's over priced IMO. No OD trans, deal killer IMO.

“……..a non roller cam sbc probably won't happen…….”


THE SKY IS FALLING……..THE SKY IS FALLING


As it relates to auto engines, I’ve heard this a few times over the last 50 years. The more notable being the removal of “lead” from Gasoline, the addition of ethanol, and the removal of ZDDPs from oil. The first 2 we learned to adapt to/live with (and honestly the removal of “lead” was not a bad thing considering its adverse effect on the atmosphere).

As far as removing the ZDDPs from engine oil, I’m not so sure it’s the end of the world either. Although I’m not really sure that I buy all the hype surrounding the real effect of the ZDDPs removal on cams and lifters I don’t discount it either.

Retrofitting a roller cam to a first Gen SB adds around $1000-1500 to the build. But that’s not necessarily the most cost effective way to go either. All my cars have flat tappet cams in them and a few years ago when the ZDDP started going away, I sat down and ran some numbers about converting some engines to Roller cams. If you think retrofitting a roller cam to a SBC is expensive, price out a kit for a first generation HEMI or 500 Cadillac


Anyway, if for nothing other than peace of mind the alternative to a roller cam is either a ZDDP additive or specialty oil like Brad Penn. The additive adds about $15 to the cost of an oil change and a Brad Penn oil change is about $40 more expensive.

Assuming;

The total cost of a roller cam retrofit is $1500.

The difference in cost per oil change by using an additive or better oil at either $15 or $40.

Oil changes at 4000 miles

At $15 an oil change for additive the car it will take 100 oil changes before the roller cam starts saving you any money. That amounts to 400,000 miles.

At $40 an oil change for Brad Penn oil it will take 37.5 oil changes before the break even point on changing to a roller cam is reached. That is 150,000 miles.

Personally I use the additive in all my cars and have not had any cam/lifter related issues to include the cars that I take cross country regularly.

1st Gen SBC parts are still about the cheapest thing going out there. Then there is the ease of installation which is that it’s a bolt in to include all you current brackets and pulleys, oil pan, mounts etc. No; sensors to add, computer to wire and calibrate, in tank fuel pump and return line to add etc. As more and more cars are converted to the LS motors it will also become the non-belly button car in the crowd

Then again, you won’t necessarily have the HP numbers, drivability under changing weather and altitude conditions or fuel mileage.

Seth I’m not trying to point you in any particular direction, just adding to the confusion


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I do a lot of roller cam conversions for peeps-------best method in the SBC market is to use a one piece seal core block from later years, convert to splayed 4 bolt billet main caps, and stroker crank to the 383-427 cubic inch--I still have a limited supply ( around 40) of the Katec 2 piece billet seal adapters if a person wants 2 piece seal-------

Dart blocks also very good option especially to go bigger cubes

I also think that a lot of cam failures comes from tighter rod side clearances, no oil squirter holes to spray cam, too tight of windage tray in oil pan--etc, etc,etc

Just stir the pot a little more, the Howards SBC retro fit cam and lifters can be had for $625 from Summit. You'll need pushrods and cam button, so call it $750. When you figure in the fact that you will need to buy a flat tappet cam and lifters for a new build anyhow (and pushrods on a good build), the additional cost isn't that bad.

I used a Howards cam because I had a nice low mileage flat tappet crate engine and didn't want to worry about finding additives or specially blended oils going forward. Can't argue with Mike's numbers other than the initial cost. It's just personal choice really and I like to eliminate the potential problem up front. No different than running ARP rod bolts even though millions of engines run with stock ones.

You never know what the EPA will come up with next. Could be that they will try to prevent refiners from even offering oils with ZDDP if they suspect that they are finding their way into new vehicles. Probably not going to happen with the current administration, but what about the next? Remember, they regulated it out of most oils because it was poisoning cats and started all this mess in the first place. Just like the ethanol/carb fiasco.

If I was building a new SBC from scratch, I would just use one of the OEM roller blocks I have stuck back and skip the retro fit stuff. No need for it on a fresh build given the parts choices out there unless you have to have a specific block for a restoration.

I will say that with all the LS engines being used, it's probably a good time to stock up on used SBC parts if that's the direction you want to go. Most likely some good deals out there if you shop around.

I think I'm going to stick with the LS1 plan. I got that 5.3 in the 53 and I love not having to screw with anything. I know the LS1 is a belly button engine but after thinking about it 99% of the time, nobody's going to know what I have in it cause it will be going down the road. There may be a car show here and there, and if I have a sbc in it , whats the reward going to be for being a bit different? It will be some guy who looks at it and says " huh, that's neat ", and then move on to the next car. Doing the math of the pros and cons, the LS1 wins in almost every category. I might pick up that Vortec by me just in case though

One thing about the LS fad is, it will be a long while before it goes away so there will be more and more parts available for them later too. Being different will get expensive but that is worth it too.

Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

......so there will be more and more parts available for them later too.

You're right 40, but you can get pretty good deals on older LS stuff right now.

I picked up a set of CNC ported cathedral port heads cheap at my local machine shop. They even had titanium retainers and dual valve springs. They had just been serviced when the owner (who is supposed to be a serious street racer)decided to go with LS3 rectangular port heads. They are older heads with the perimeter bolt valve covers and no one wanted them, but they will be head and shoulders better than the stock 243 LS6 heads I was looking for. There's no way I could have ported them anywhere near as good as the CNC mill did.

I'm shooting for somewhere close to 400HP at the wheels and I don't want to use a lot of cam to do it. I think the heads will help a lot toward that goal. We'll see how it works out. GM was able to get good HP with fairly tame cams in the LS6, so I'm using that as my benchmark.

Originally Posted by 40FordDeluxe

One thing about the LS fad is, it will be a long while before it goes away so there will be more and more parts available for them later too. Being different will get expensive but that is worth it too.

There's no shortage of LS parts, it a full blown after market paradise with them now. Being different is more expensive and I think I just got a little gun shy with my had to be different experience with the whole 348 thing. The 350 is not anything like a 348 so I should get over that. I talked to the guy with the vortec and It runs fine, it started using a lot of gas and then blew a brake line so he parked it. It has about 160K on it which isn't too bad. My brother has 260K on his and its going just fine. I think I'll grab the Vortec for sure because they don't seem to be as plentiful as the LS motors for the off chance I'll change my mind again. I've always wanted a 383 I think I'll quit posting what my mind is doing hour by hour and stop annoying the the crap out of everybody including myself.

You're only doing the same thing as all the rest of us! At least twice a day I think I should rip out the 347 and maybe stuff in a Coyote or maybe do another FE? Or maybe...... sigh... We're with ya' brother!!

You're not annoying me! Helping spend your money takes my mind off my projects for about 5 seconds.