Thread: About to (maybe) buy my first hotrod. Please school me on 1931 Ford Coupes

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interior.... figure 4 to 5 K, Wheels & Tires... 15 to 2K...

Chop Top.... depending on the level of finish you want.. 25 to 4K..

Personally, If you do chop the top, make it a small one. Just enough to add character. jmho.

Judging by the strut arm, it's probably a Pinto/Mustang II independent front suspension system. Thousands of them have found their way under rods of all persuasions and they work pretty well with the original triangulated lower strut design, although the strut support in the photo looks to be in need of reinforcement to prevent breaking or bending. Here's a photo of a rear strut mount that is somewhat more substantial and less prone to breaking or bending.....
http://www.hotrodsandhemis.com/truck36.jpg
It's when some whiz-bang hot-shot fabricator decides to eliminate the strut rod and use a narrow wishbone lower control arm that the problems begin. Pat Ganahl (famed automotive enthusiast and writer) has stated that he sees several hundred broken front suspensions every year on rod runs and I suspect most of them are the Pinto/MII design with a re-engineered lower control arm that has eliminated the rear triangulated strut, or some redheaded stepchild front suspension system built by one of the popular hot rod shops/suppliers. I won't name any names, but you would recognize them if I put them in print. I made that comment on another forum, suggesting that the fellow who was thinking about buying the car should really drive it, as I'm suggesting to you here. Well......I was flamed by everyone, telling me that the car was not designed to be operated on anything except smooth highway. BZZZZZZZT. Wrong answer. If I can't drive it anywhere I want to, I don't want it. I've never built a show car in my life and I never will, even if I had another 73 years on this rock. I've built DRIVERS.

About chopping the top.....my best suggestion is to take two aspirin and lay down with a damp cloth on your forehead until the feeling goes away. For the love of God, please, if you buy this rod, don't succumb to the dumbass-ness of cuttin' the lid. Dare to be different. It's a really cute little car just the way it is, well, except for the rear tires not filling the fender. And that brings us back to Uncle Bob's comment about the builder not properly installing the 'Vette IRS. It needs to be installed 2 inches higher in the car. And don't tell me it can't be done. I don't care what's in the way, with a MIG, a cutting torch, a Sawzall and a good 4" hand grinder, you can make anything fit anything and look good doin' it.

I also don't much like the exhaust system being seen from the side of the car. Whoever did that wasn't paying attention to the total build scheme.

I keep editing this post because I keep thinking of things to tell you. Here's another....
SCRUB RADIUS: Run a line from the centerline of the upper ball joint through the centerline of the lower ball joint and extend that line down to the floor where you have outlined the tire footprint. Most of the time, due to wide wheels and a narrow backset, you will see positive scrub radius. This can get out of control very quickly if you don't take it into consideration and can turn a good driver into an ill-handling beast that slings the tire around on the balljoint centerlines.
http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1...9303/GW485H470
Automakers have used both positive and negative in order to achieve certain handling characteristics, but in my view, a neutral scrub radius where the tire spins on the center of its tread is the correct way to begin with a hot rod. Adjust with wheel width, as well as backset measurement.

Although I've already stated that I don't like systems that eliminate the strut rod, here is an excellent assessment of the MII system by Brent Vandervort, President of Fatman Fabrications.....
http://tech.fatmanfabrications.co/ex...ull-understand

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Chop top equals new paint job

stock Mustang II suspension to me equals new front suspension correctly engineered for rods not for Mustangs, I sort of agree with Tech here, I would go further and say lets use the geometry and leave the stock stuff under Mustang II's most problems occur I personally believe with that stock stuff under a 40's car, where there where no 4000 lb mustang II's with big blocks.

New interior equals just that new interior

Powerful motor equals boxing the frame and new X member

Lets say you keep the rear end, but now you are getting close to building a new car, if you like steel great, but like Shine mentioned we're looking at some old steel here, hope its repaired right. I mentioned a steel car will bring 5k more than a glass car when done maybe way more, but thats not from me, if they both look the same give me the glass and no rust. I like Henry and respect him but if they look the same??? How about finding out in about 3 years the bondo on your real steel is 5/8 thick, still proud? Personal preference here only.

Neat car but I would say like it for what it is and drive it, otherwise you'll be in too deep if you go over Bobs 4k price and thats if you can do all the work yourself as you will see 15k real quick in a rebuild. Sell those B&M two piece valve covers as they're worth $150!

Buy my book I am going to write for a lesson on building hotrods, its title is "How to make a small fortune building hotrods" the only page says what you guessed "Start with a large fortune"

I'm not trying to pee on your campfire, but that A-bone coupe needs a lot of work. Make a thorough review of the suggestions above and make a list of the things you would have to do to bring that coupe up to snuff.

However, it can be done.

My first street rod back in the early 1990s was an all steel '31 A-bone sedan with a 454, Ford top-loader 4-speed, re-engineered Mustang II front end and a 9" Ford rear. It drove like it was on rails at freeway speeds, as well as over 110 mph on the drag strip.

However, I started with a brand new frame and an advanced engineering degree. My slightly narrowed M-II front end had tubular upper control arms and a slightly modified lower control arm and I kept the M-II diagonal strut. It aligned perfectly at the alignment shop.

It sits a little high in these photos, but I lowered it a bit later on.

It was damn hard to put this one together with mostly new parts (except for the body), and re-doing one that's set up, let's say more 'unconventionally' will be a lot harder.

Think this over really, really hard, because it will take a heap o' work to bring this one forward.

If you click on the photos, you'll get a larger view.

Good luck on whatever you choose to do.

As your first hot rod it's hard to beat getting it from a trusted friend.
I would go drive it around town and on the highway to see if it drove and performed to my expectations. Check the tires, alignment, motor and running gear and any safety issues, if everything met my criteria, I would offer 15K for it and treat it as a driver. I would leave it as it is, sans a little clean up and interior repairs (dash paint and fabric spray can do wonders). I would drive it, using it as a testing ground and stepping stone to see if I really like hot rods, knowing at 15K I should be able to get my money back out of it if I didn't like it (maybe even offer your friend first right to refuse if you sell it). If it turns out hot rods and rodding are what you enjoy, I would trade up when the time and circumstances align.
JMHO...

Wow, LOTS of great, thorough feedback here. I can't thank you guys enough. I obviously have so much to learn and to think about. I'm in Texas, and this car without A/C is about useless, so that's another expense as well.

I've asked him to send me detailed front end and chassis pics, we'll see what that looks like and go fron there.

Again, I appreciate all the feedback.

Thanks.

Another issue about MII front ends is that they were designed with much of the weight of the motor essentially sitting almost on top of the crossmember. In an A-bone or a '32, the motor sits further back in the chassis, which reduces the loading on the front end. In my '30 sedan, none of the motor was over the axle. In fact the fan was behind it. If I remember correctly, I also used much lighter springs than one would expect. (BTW, the weird angles of the tires is from a wide angle lens)

front1.jpg

Note the upward angle of the upper A-arm, and that the lower arm and the rack are both parallel with the ground.

front2.jpg

When I built this, several people told me I couldn't put a M-II suspension under an A-bone, or a 454 motor in it. Fancy that.

Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

When I built this, several people told me I couldn't put a M-II suspension under an A-bone, or a 454 motor in it. Fancy that.

Yup and the earth is flat...lol

Another thing I did when I first started getting into hot rods was cut out a bunch of pictures out of magazines and post them up on a wall (I was a kid) and I found that early to mid 30's cars ticked my fancy. You could do the same thing with downloading pictures from the internet and post them in the appropriate folders and just see what file has the most pictures. This will also give you what build styles you are drawn to. Then go to some events and talk to owners of this type of vehicle and tell them your getting into it and see if they would let you sit in their car. lets face it I love the look of a chopped and channeled coupe but I know it's not for me because of the way "I'm" built (though both my cars are chopped). If someone came up to me at a show and wanted to try my car on for size, I'd be more than happy to help him out. So long as he didn't have spurs on and a chain wallet banging against my paint...LOL Trust me there is nothing worse than buying a car your not truly into. You'll lose interest and it will just sit or you'll sell it cheap and lose money. One more thing. Have reasonable expectations on ride quality. It's never gonna drive like a Lexus.

The suggestion to identify things you like / dislike is very valid. For example the trend for the last dozen years or so has been to "fill the wheel wells" ... for me this is a look I move away from. Another has been the rubber band tire and extra tall wheels.. (rubber band - so called due to the lack of sidewall) for me this is just awful! We are not "built" the same and we all have different likes/dislikes.. sort out yours and see if this car can fit the bill..

And another good point was raised, it isn't a new Lexus or Caddy.. or even a Toyota.. it is a 80's hot rod, hopefully a well built/assembled one!

after enlarging the pics i can tell you it has one of the worst front ends ever put out. look closely for fatigue cracks around the aframes and the strut rod bracket . i have replaced many over the years because of cracking. welding 1/2 steel to an old frame is not a good idea. hundreds failed.

Originally Posted by Henry Rifle

Another issue about MII front ends is that they were designed with much of the weight of the motor essentially sitting almost on top of the crossmember. In an A-bone or a '32, the motor sits further back in the chassis, which reduces the loading on the front end. In my '30 sedan, none of the motor was over the axle. In fact the fan was behind it. If I remember correctly, I also used much lighter springs than one would expect.

At last count, I think Eaton Detroit Spring had 16 different springs for the MII system, so it's not a problem to dial in the correct spring for any car using that system...
https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/

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Originally Posted by shine

after enlarging the pics i can tell you it has one of the worst front ends ever put out. look closely for fatigue cracks around the aframes and the strut rod bracket . i have replaced many over the years because of cracking. welding 1/2 steel to an old frame is not a good idea. hundreds failed.

I hear ya shine, I guess that's why Pat Ganahl said what he did about seeing hundreds of broken ones every year. A lot of guys think they can design and follow through on a rod build, but very few of them have the engineering background or even simple backwoods smarts to carry it through to successful completion. As Brent Vandervort said, the MII is a very sturdy design and if these builders would simply emulate what the factory produced, they'd be fine. Hell, even the Pinto design would work well if it were installed in a lightweight rod as it was engineered at the factory. It's when these ham-fisted idiots begin to re-engineer the system that the whole mess goes to hell in a handbasket.

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stock cross member no problem. flat plate welded together then ground down no way. brent used heavy wall tubing so he did not have the liability . but i have never been a fan of mll . i just dont care for r&p . i'll run a dropped axle first .

Can you tell me what that front end is that you're referring to so that I can steer away from it as I shop for a car?