My hot rod plans

I'm planning to basicly restore my Model A near to how my dad had it in the early 60's. The car has a '31 5 window steel body, everything else is '57 Chrysler. I want to build it to vintage specs using only period parts where they're seen. Anything newer will be hidden if possible.

It has or will have:

body channeled/frame shortened
12" drum brakes front & rear
392 Hemi built as hot as I can afford it
727 transmission (shift kit etc..)
vintage magneseum 14x6 front wheels, vintage 15x10 rear wheels, (both torque thrust style)
torison bar front suspension, rear '51 Chevy truck leaf springs
fuel cell
custom grill and radiator
shortened '57 Chrysler dash
'58 T-Bird front buckets
Dana rearend with a gear, yet to be determined
rebuilt 57-58 Chrysler gauges and radio, XM Radio hidden
rebuilt 57 Chrysler power windows, hidden remote locks and ignition

Anyway that's what I've got planned. Please feel free to throw in comments, ideas or anything that comes to mind.

The only thing I would at first glance disagree with is using drum front brakes. You should consider discs. With that much potential 'go-power'(and nose weight) you need stop power. If you want them to look like drums, So-Cal and others have assemblies that will hide discs. Heck, I have discs on all four corners on a roadster with a barely warmed over SB Ford:D

Oh and before you commit to expensive upholstery on bucket seats - make sure that you along with them fit - this from personal experience:CRY::CRY:

Actually drum brakes have more braking power than disc's. Disc rear is not going to stop you better. You'll never heat the rear drums up enough to justified the extra cost of rear disc's. unless you do road course type driving, then disc's are better. Their mostly for looks.
Yes I have disc's all the way around, but my IRS came with them.

Pat

My dad told me stories of him testing the brakes and the distance it took to stop from certain speeds. I'll ask him again and repeat it here.
Each drum has 4 shoes and they were good enough to stop a 5,000 pound Mopar running a 392 from highway speeds. I know discs look nicer, but I'm going primarily for function and vintage, plus I'll be using what's already on the car.

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Originally Posted by gsp392

Each drum has 4 shoes and they were good enough to stop a 5,000 pound Mopar running a 392 from highway speeds.

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I've been a Mopar fan since I was a teenager, worked in the parts dept of a Dodge dealer at 19, owned many, many Mopars including Hemis but I don't recall seeing a Mopar drum brake that uses 4 brake shoes per wheel, I also suffer from CRS :confused: these days. Would love to see a pic of that brake set-up to refresh my failing memory.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike52

I've been a Mopar fan since I was a teenager, worked in the parts dept of a Dodge dealer at 19, owned many, many Mopars including Hemis but I don't recall seeing a Mopar drum brake that uses 4 brake shoes per wheel, I also suffer from CRS :confused: these days. Would love to see a pic of that brake set-up to refresh my failing memory.

Mike

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It's possible that I misunderstood what he said. I've been known to do that from time to time.:LOL:

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Originally Posted by HemiTCoupe

Actually drum brakes have more braking power than disc's.

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Easy to type that here, but some factual data would be nice.
I wonder why 100% of manufacturers use front discs.
Enlighten we the uneducated. :eek:

I've never run discs on any car I've had, and they all stop just fine. Discs are not perfect, my Son Don has Wilwoods on the front of his T and he has had fits trying to get them right. The first set threw brake dust all over the car and the rotors scored badly, so Speedway stepped up and sent him a different set. No more dust, but they squeal like mad. We've adjusted, shimmed, sanded the pads, etc, still no good. Lots of conversations with Wilwood and they don't even have an answer.

As for drums not stopping, we are talking about 2,000 pound cars here. One time I was driving my 27 and the light changed to red, so I hit the brakes. My Wife was following me in her new car with discs, abs, and all that stuff, and she almost redesigned my rear end. My 27 stopped way better than hers.

Don

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

My 27 stopped way better than hers.

Don

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I would put that down purely to reaction times.:D
I had a drum braked car run into the back of my disc braked car.
So does that dispel which is better? I don't think so.:HMMM:

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Originally Posted by LIFESTYLZ

I would put that down purely to reaction times.:D
I had a drum braked car run into the back of my disc braked car.
So does that dispel which is better? I don't think so.:HMMM:

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No, that would just mean the guy who hit you was a lousy driver.:D:D

Don

Now - let me count the different cars that I've had with 4 wheel drums and needed more brakes that 'ran out' of stopping power that did or could have caused a problem:

1964 Pontiac Grand Prix - two hard stops, then nothing (and I mean NOTHING) and would blow lights at the local traffic lights including once 6" away from another car. Sold it (traded it ) and some guy ended up killing himself because he couldn't stop

1963 Ford Galaxie (406/405++ Tri Power) - this car found the end of the traps at two of the local drag strips.

1965 Ford Galaxie (390/330 Police) - as bad as the '63.

Now if I recall, the older Chrysler brakes - and the OP didn't note what he was using - were the dual opposing wheel cylinder Lockheed brakes which were for no better term, atrocious. Even after doing a lining to drum radius and adjusting the pivot pin and the usual movable adjuster for minimum clearance you would only have a partial lining hitting the drum during a stop. While the brakes themselves were fairly large, they needed to be to stop those heavy cars. If these are the standard (and current) Bendix design, probably could be made to work. If they are pre '49 Ford, these too are Lockheed, tho I do believe the trucks went to Bendix earlier - but CRS......

As far as drums being as good or better then disc brakes - not a true statement. Discs cool better as the heat is dissipated easier , apply fully across the braking surface, are self cleaning and apply more evenly on both sides of the rotor. I cannot envision my 8000+ pound F350 pulling my 11,000 pound 5th wheel RV down a steep road without at least front discs and since it has 4 wheel discs, better

Don and others using modern drums on light cars - not much problem there as newer drum brake systems or even newer compounds will for sure work great. As far as problems with discs, I have Wilwoods on my '31 - and all four corners and except for the fact they did a poor job of stopping my car when new, they only needed to be fully bedded and that took several more "break in" cycles - now they are great and I don't see any of the dirt or squeal problems noted as yet, but more time and miles will tell.

We can beat this disc brake vs drum brake horse all day, and you are still going to have advocates on both sides of that discussion. Besides, gsp392 has already stated he wants drums for the old timey look (and IMO those SoCal and other similar discs posing as drum brakes DO NOT fool anyone, they still look ok on a street rod, but not on a hot rod)

So, to get gsp392 the feedback he really wanted, I think the front torsion bar idea is a good one. At one time I would have not thought so, but Jim (JRobinson) on here has an A coupe with torsion bars, and it is the cleanest installation I have ever seen. I hope he sees this and posts some pictures of how he did it. You have to stand on your head to even see them in his car, and he says it handles great.

Don

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Originally Posted by Itoldyouso

....Besides, gsp392 has already stated he wants drums for the old timey look (and IMO those SoCal and other similar discs posing as drum brakes DO NOT fool anyone, they still look ok on a street rod, but not on a hot rod).

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Don, you're right this drum vs disc discussion is not the point here, and in fact I believe that if you look back at gsp392's posts it's a moot point - he already has the brakes he's going to use, and they are the one's his dad installed years ago. As he says at the start,

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Originally Posted by gsp392

It has or will have: (his list)

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I think we're beating a dead horse on the brakes. Maybe the question for gsp392 is, "What parts do you already have, and what is up for discussion here??"

I really appriciate all the replys.

Here's what I've listed that I already have:

body channeled/frame shortened
12" drum brakes front & rear
392 Hemi
vintage magneseum 14x6 front wheels, vintage 15x10 rear wheels, (both torque thrust style)
torison bar front suspension, rear '51 Chevy truck leaf springs
custom grill and radiator
shortened '57 Chrysler dash
'58 T-Bird front buckets
Dana rearend
57-58 Chrysler gauges and radio
57 Chrysler power windows

I also happened to remember, I've got a '76 Mercury with a 460 and a C6. I can pull the C6, get it rebuilt, get an adapter and save the money of buying a 727.

I basicly want to share my goals with everyone and get opinions. Just like with the brakes, I welcome all points of view even though for some things I'm set in my ways. Plus, although dad gave me the project years ago, I still have to build it to suit him too.

I'm afraid that discs are better than drums, just fact !!!

Having said that i'm using drums on the front of my 26T because they look very cool, Drums don't have to be bad if setup properley.

Ok, what dad told me was that the Chrysler 12" drum brakes had one wheel cylinder per shoe. Unlike like Ford and General Motors using one wheel cylinder per wheel.
The weight of the car as dad had it was 3,000 pounds. From 60 mph to 0, he got the car stopped in under 200 feet without skidding. Discs might be great for other people for their cars, but for me and mine, I'm keeping what's on it.

In the final analysis, that is what really matters...........it's your car and you want it to reflect your Dads and your own touches. It would be a very boring hobby if every car looked the same and had the same components. If I want to see that I go to my local new car dealer. :D

As for your transmission choice, just another option. One of our members, Bill, (Gastrick) has a really sweet old school 32 coupe with a Hemi. He is using an adapter (I think from HotHeads) to run a TH350 transmission behind it. Makes a very nice, smooth, easily repaired setup.

Sometimes the transmissions that were used behind cars like your Hemi can cost so much to rebuild, IF you can find a qualified transmission guy to do it, that it makes more sense to simply adapt a different transmission. I had to make that decision for the 394 Olds I am going to use in my rpu. It had the original Olds 4 speed Dual Path transmission which weighed about a ton, and rather than having it freshened up I bought an adapter from Bendtsens Transmissions so I can run a TH 350. I figure if the transmission would ever go out 500 miles from home I can find someone who knows a 350, but just try to find one who knows how to fix a 46 year old Olds transmission. :eek:

Keep us posted on how the car is coming, and we LOVE lots of pictures. :)

Don

I'll take and post pics when I can.
There is a local transmission shop that I'd trust to work on anything I could ever bring to them. I'll call one day just to get an idea on a price for building up the C6.
I want to keep as much of the car as possible Mopar and Ford, but it'l depend on money when it's all said and done.

I was just thinkin' about the transmission. Surfin' around, I found an adapter for the 392 to a Chrysler A904 (small block transmission) for the ridiculously low price of $475.
http://www.riley-auto.com/ADAPTERS.html
If this were my project, I would take into consideration the total cost involved in getting the drivetrain into place. The C6 might be free, but if you can't find an adapter for it, then it is a moot point. And if you do find an adapter and it's $1000., then that isn't a good plan either.

Rescue an A904 from a boneyard and have it rebuilt or score a rebuilt unit if you trust the builder. I'm just thinkin' that an all-Mopar drivetrain would be neat.

This is just with some quickie surfing, there may be even better deals out there with another type of transmission.

Sure you all can say that I'm wrong, and then say to stop beating the horse, that you guys are beating!

I Never said that drum brakes were better brakes, if fact I said I had disc's all around! I said they had more braking power!!! Read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote!

Fact: Drums do have more braking power to stop a wheel from turning, they rotate and lock themself which make more gripping on the drum, less work on your leg. Power brakes only became because when disc's were started to be used, they took alot more force to push, to get them to stop!
Drums have smaller masters & smaller wheel cylinders, easier to work, Disc's have to use larger wheel cylinders (caliper) because of the force it takes to pinch a spinning disc, which take a larger master cylinder to push enough fluid to move the enough, If you didn't have power to help move it, you'd need to pump the pedal to move enough and would kill your leg in traffic! I didn't say drum didn't fade with use from heat or water.
I didn't say that alot of drag racers use drum over disc's either, but they do.

But disc rears is not going to help, unless you drive enough to heat them to fade! Most do it for looks, or to say they have them!

Why does American cars come with drum rears and foreign don't?

Some of you can build nice cars, but you can't read whats writen!

Read --> http://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-p...ower-brake.htm

You guys then wonder why new & some old people don't post or come back on this site, you run them off with your stupid Bitch'n and down talking.

Who's next?

Pat

Hopefully you can come up with a 727, just seems it would be the way to go behind the Hemi, or Richard's idea on the 904 would be a very viable alternative, too. Friend of mine tried running a C-6 behind a well build 501 BBF and had a lot of grief with it... suppose it could have been the shop's error. I'll put in the 2nd vote for keeping the transmission in the MoPar family....

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

I was just thinkin' about the transmission. Surfin' around, I found an adapter for the 392 to a Chrysler A904 (small block transmission) for the ridiculously low price of $475.
http://www.riley-auto.com/ADAPTERS.html
If this were my project, I would take into consideration the total cost involved in getting the drivetrain into place. The C6 might be free, but if you can't find an adapter for it, then it is a moot point. And if you do find an adapter and it's $1000., then that isn't a good plan either.

Rescue an A904 from a boneyard and have it rebuilt or score a rebuilt unit if you trust the builder. I'm just thinkin' that an all-Mopar drivetrain would be neat.

This is just with some quickie surfing, there may be even better deals out there with another type of transmission.

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Thanks,

I looked again just now, I could have sworn I'd seen C6 adapters for the same price as the Mopar. I should do a search every few days just to stay on the ball. I see 727s alot more common than the A904 so I'm wondering if I'd be just as well with one of them. I still have a very long time before I'll be ready to buy anything, but I'd like to do as much research ahead of time and have a definate plan of action.

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Originally Posted by gsp392

Thanks,

I looked again just now, I could have sworn I'd seen C6 adapters for the same price as the Mopar. I should do a search every few days just to stay on the ball. I see 727s alot more common than the A904 so I'm wondering if I'd be just as well with one of them. I still have a very long time before I'll be ready to buy anything, but I'd like to do as much research ahead of time and have a definate plan of action.

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If you plan to do a lot of beating on the car, you might be better off with a 727, but I see a ton of little Darts and such with 365's and 408's at the drags using the A904. Usually these guys will tell you that the car is a little quicker with the lighter duty trans because of the weight of rotating components and you know these drag racer guys, they'd sell their kids for a tenth quicker in the lights.:eek:

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Originally Posted by techinspector1

If you plan to do a lot of beating on the car, you might be better off with a 727, but I see a ton of little Darts and such with 365's and 408's at the drags using the A904. Usually these guys will tell you that the car is a little quicker with the lighter duty trans because of the weight of rotating components and you know these drag racer guys, they'd sell their kids for a tenth quicker in the lights.:eek:

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I want something that'l take every bit of what I put to it. I'm going to run 10inch cheater slicks and I don't want to have to worry about anything breaking, so I'm thinking nothing less than 727.

I got a quote today for a used 727 for $150 out of a junkyard. I'll use it as a core to build up. Does that sound like a good price?
Also, I'm going to run a crossram 2x4 on my 392. I plan on that, plus headers and a very stout cam. Any ideas of how much power that will make? Are there other things I can do within reason to get more power aside from roller rockers and roller lifters?