Well Dave---------once upon a time, long ago--------John Keeling went for a ride with me on a cloudy Sunday---------we lived ( before California) at a place near Ohare that was about centered from US30, Union Grove and Byron Dragway-we went and flew around all 3 places kinda low? to see what was going on-------but on the way back I flew thru a cloud, rolled plane upside down and came out other side with John looking at the countryside with his feet way above his head---------he was sorta surprised, pissed, impressed, excited-----------