http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/us-b...ylist=14594944
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Heck, who do you believe on that deal??? The CalTran rep or the reporter???
It’s a deep hole we have and are digging ourselves into. The mention of not having the pool of qualified welders to do that job echoes what I was reading about a Florida (?) company last week that could not find qualified machinists.
In the opinion of this grumpy old man I feel that a large part of the blame lies with us and the previous generation. In our efforts for our kids to have a better life than we had we somehow instilled in them that there was something wrong with being a blue collar worker.....that somehow being in those jobs was not living up to ones full potential and were paying the price now.
We are hitting the time now that we don’t have the jobs because we don’t the skilled workers, but there is no incentive to gain the skills with no jobs available (and a master welder or machinist is not grown overnight) .
Mike, I share your viewpoint. I worked for many years in the electric power industry, and on several EPC (engineer, procure, construct) projects in different parts of the country. One of the biggest problems facing us is the "graying of the construction industry" - the experienced skilled workers in all of the trades are nearing retirement, and there's no influx of young blood following them, learning the tricks of the trade. Part of it is the blue collar/white collar bias, but even more is the "I want it now" attitude of a lot of the younger generation. They are not willing to work for a few years as a helper or apprentice to the master craftsman - they want the master craftsman pay starting out. Qualified welders is a particular shortage. We had more than one job where we advertised for, and brought in ASME welders from the Phillipines for six months to a year because we could not hire them locally, even paying travel - they simply were not there, or were already tied up on other jobs. We even set up a "welding school" on site to get guys/gals qualified in a fast track training program, and could not get enough interest to fill the needs. And before someone jumps me about it, those Phillipine welders were getting the same pay as everyone else, plus their per diem and travel - not a case of shifting jobs OUS for savings. We spent many, many dollars extra simply to stay on schedule. Somehow we need to re-educate our kids on the value of an honest days work for honest days wage, and that it's OK (or more than OK) to get your hands dirty.
I agree with you gents. When I retired fifteen years ago, things were already looking pretty dismal in the trades; 'most' of the applicants to the apprentice programs were people who couldn't make the grade to get into college, or had a criminal background and couldn't get into a job any other way. Some proved out and were excellent workers, but they were the exceptions rather than the rules. I can't imagine that anything has gotten better over the years, I'm sorry to say.
Just to expand on what you guys have identified, there is no single idea, scheme, cause, whatever...........it's the accumulation of decades of silly think. Young people today have been indoctrinated with the idea that those who are successful (whatever level.........it all becomes relative to a viewpoint) got there because of "luck" or some other silly notion. If they go into college they come out believing they've done all they need to do to get the "big check"..............they're fed that line from a very young age. No idea that whatever they were taught in school, primary or secondary, is just foundational to figuring out how to produce value for their fellow man to be compensated for. I read a report from the national manufacturing association yesterday that there are 600k jobs across this country right now that can't find qualified workers. These are skill jobs, some more complex than others, but not rocket science.
In line with Roger's commentary, I found that when it came time to groom a new body or paint guy for the team we had better odds with immigrants who came here wanting to earn opportunity, not have it given them as an entitlement. They were less likely to have the "know it all" attitude, and recognized they needed to learn to earn. Some young folks born to this country were taught that too, just not enough of them. It's like that phrase often attached in the illegal alien discussions; "They're doing the jobs Americans won't do!". That's dead wrong though my expression of it doesn't sound very diffeent, it is vastly different from a motivational point of view. I say, "They're doing jobs that Americans DON"T HAVE to do."...........mainly because it's to easy to get by day to day for all the handout programs that don't require any more effort than filling out a form, or maybe standing in line for a short while. Little things, well intentioned things, but a cascade of dumb ideas for 4 or 5 decades and we end up with what we've got....................a team that doesn't have enough people who know how, much less are willing, to compete. Sigh....................
Same thing here, Bob... When I had my shop, once every few months some kid would hang around for awhile telling me how he wanted to learn to do all the fabrication, welding, body work, etc. and if I paid him $20.00 an hour like the other guys he could start tomorrow! The classic was a kid 4 days out of vocational school who wanted a job, but seeing as how he'd been to school he thought he should just be the painter and not have to do all that metal banging, body work, or prep work!!!!
If rebuilding our economic system requires blue collar workers, not sure there's going to be enough of them around!! Heck, our local High School doesn't hardly have a shop program anymore, but you should see their computer labs!!! Sports programs draw a lot of $$$$ and support, too so I'm sure at least half the kids involved will go on to be professional athletes, right????:rolleyes::rolleyes:
feed a young kid today and he'll go to bed happy , cut his ass off and he'll go to work when he's hungry. one of the biggest faults i see today is mom and dad bailing them out of every mess they get into. loaning money, paying for the car, paying for the insurance etc . go to a middle school and count the cell phones .
Apple has an $100 billion pile of cash they don't know what to do with
Heck Shine,Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
Around here the student parking lot at the high school has newer and higher dollar cars than anything in the teacher's lot. We've got little girls getting a new Beemer or Mercedes for their 16th birthday!! At the university they have a new position to deal with the parents trying to interface with the kid's teachers when little Johnny gets a below average grade... Yep, you've hit upon a big part of the problem..... How about a two year mandatory military service stint for everyone??? Sure, it costs some money, but it might straighten some kids out when they learn that they have to be responsible for their actions.
OK, (not quoting word for word but generally) Tony Anziano says they've done everything they could to keep the money in "our" economy BUT Sossel says that the American Companies say they could have done the job as cheap as the Chinese Company - - - - Gents, SOMEONE IS LYING !
I'll chime in have been out of pocket for a while,lot's happening around here.
I visited the Tool and Die business I sold in 97 last week. It was the first time I had visited since selling. The shop foreman and one machinist were all that was still with the company. The machinist was an apprentice when I was still owner.I left with an apprentice program that I had set up in the area with local companies and ACC our local community College.
To my surprise the program had been withdrawn. I set this program up because we were having a problem finding good machinist. The forman said the program died because of lack of interest from the potential local labor pool.
A lot has changed in the last 15 years,most want to start at the top and the old school of starting out at the bottom and working up is history. As stated , trades are going,going, and gone. Sad but true. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I honestly think we have beat ourselves up. Companies (small ones ) can't afford the trades people. I was a supervisor in a factory for 20 years. It was hell tryig to get a simpel job done with all the unions. To make a steel table (angel iron and a top 2'x3') and install it. First you need an engineer to draw it up, Then get a layout man He got the drawing and couldn't understand it,So he went out to the site to see what is going on. MORE TIME.The layout man goes to the steel yard to have the crane operator get him the Liron. The layout man then marks up all the parts He then get a welder to cut the steel at his marks.. Between the two they will tack the table together. THEN they take it out to the jobsite to make sure it fits. Then back to the weld shop to finish welding it. You do eventualy get the table. It is suposed to get a hyd. pump mounted on it. You get a pipe fitter to come look at the table. He has to go get a millright to drill him 4 holes. and tighten the bolts The pipe fitter then gets 2 hoses to hook up the pump... Now you get an electrican to power the motor the run the pump. He looks at it says Why do I get all the Construction job I'm busy working on breakdowns.. You call another electrican, he looks at it says I got to get materials I'll be back. He goes to lunch or home . Actualy there is more to it than I put down here. I figure by now no body believes me anyway, BUT if you ever worked as a supervisor in a big factory you know what I'm talking about. GOD forbid you pick up a tool to do anything and your paying someone for 4hr because of it. The factory jobs are there, but I can't believe the small or big shops can afford this type of goings on when one man out of work could do all that, be happy and have it done in less time. Before my 20 yrs as a supervisor I was a millwright/ electrician/ pipfitter/ welder/layoutman. You used to do whatever it takes. Today why bother hell Uncle Sam will give me a check every month to watch TV. Everytime they get a raise the price of the product goes up to compinsate ...So you got a raise ,and now your paying more for the product. How dose that work
Yeah, getting back on topic I agree with Meller - something stinks here and I suspect the statement of Tony Anziano is not entirely true. I believe what he was answering is that he selected the low, OUS bid, therefore spending less and thus keeping "...more money in our economy." Kind of like the guy my wife buying a new dress on sale, and focusing on "...look at how much I saved today!!"Quote:
Originally Posted by MelloYello
they dont know where the money is , came from or going. no way in hell can they keep up with anything that large. some of you guys run your own business. i have a hard enough time dealing my little chunk of it. our government is just too figgin big to be effective.
The thing that has "always" puzzled me is "WHY" can't we hold these decision making Political ?Patriots? accountable for their actions? Why can't the American Companies demand a valid and just explanation as to why they didn't get the contracts? I'll bet you a dollar to a hole in a donut that there's some unseen money in someone's bank account ! (Oops, I posted this at the same time Shine was posting and he covered some of it - sorry Compadre)
business is business . believe it or not there are a lot of small manufactures moving back here. the cost of doing business in china has climbed as shipping has. china will let someone open a factory 2 blocks away and clone your products. look at the new truck they built. it's a damn f150 .
Amen, I can personally attest to that. I lived in Shanghai for nine years and when CarrFore opened up their first "supermarket" in 1992, all the locals went crazy and packed the place. Previously they had purchased their groceries from roadside stands. In six months right across the street, a local Chinese "knock off" supermarket opened its doors. Same thing with KFC, after six month two blocks down the same road a local "KFC" opened. The factory I ran made aircon units and we partnered with a local start up company to sell units. During the past twenty years they have opened up several factories and are now the biggest aircon seller in China. Message, make yer money while you can and then move on. Remember guys the local rank and file Chinese are the quintessential capitalists and will flip any foreign company if they think they can make a buck, with the backing of the government. There are more millionaires and billionaires in China now than most of the world combined. Sad fact of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
Cheers, John, AKA, tin-man
Zhuhai, P.R.C.
I don't want to knock the point of this very interesting thread off course, but .... if I might, I'd like to mention the construction trades and the changes that have taken place in that industry in recent years.
I'm speaking of what I see in my part of the world but I'm sure it applies in other places as well.
People bemoan the fact that Mexican workers have taken over and, in doing so, have denied US workers jobs they should rightfully be getting.
That has to be B.S. in its purest form.
Let me quote Uncle Bob here: "It's like that phrase often attached in the illegal alien discussions; "They're doing the jobs Americans won't do!". That's dead wrong though my expression of it doesn't sound very different, it is vastly different from a motivational point of view. I say, "They're doing jobs that Americans DON"T HAVE to do."
Where I live (Northeast Tarrant County, Texas) the economy has done pretty well when compared to other areas, and it's rare to see anything other than Latinos doing construction work.
Or landscape work.
Or working on highway projects.
You name it. They can and will do it, and believe me, those people are GOOD and getting better! They show up for work as soon as they can see in the morning and don't quit until they can't see in the evening. I have seen them working on rooftop jobs when the temperature is bumping 110 degrees. When I got so dang old and feeble I couldn't do a decent job of caring for my own luxuriant lawn (one acre of red sand on top of solid sandrock and covered with grass burrs) a Mexican man and his wife appeared at my door and asked for my business doing yard work. This is the second year they have been with us and we are very pleased with them.
In case anybody should ask, no. I didn't ask to see a "green card" and I pay them with green money. If people ask me why I didn't find an American couple to do the job, well, the answer is simple. Nobody like that showed up looking for work, but Miguel and Ana did.
So I'm a bad citizen.
After Hurricane Katrina did it's thing, conditions in New Orleans were horrible. Thousands of workers were needed to do a lot of hard and unpleasant manual labor. Who responded? The Mexicans. Many of those folks took a liking to the place and stayed there. Now a lot of New Orleanians are upset because the newcomers are "destroying the genial atmosphere and traditions for which the area is famous".
As a former three-year resident of New Orleans (I still feel a fondness for the place), I'll suggest that a new society with a strong work ethic has come in and is replacing a society without a work ethic.
I have several friends at CHR who know my address and phone number. I ask that they keep that information confidential because if they don't I'll probably be hearing from the New Orleans mafia.
Jim
Big Tracks-----So true
Big Tracks,,its the same down here..People moan on about the Pacific Islanders taking their jobs,,but in reality,they DONT want to do the work the the Islanders do..They think they are above doing dirty manual labor..Well,a great many do,,so the Islanders settle in the cities,and do what they canget their hands on,work hard and reap the benefits..
OK Robin, I gotta ask where are you exactly, Inglewood California or Inglewood elswhere, Pacific Islanders maybe is a clue, but I'm clueless.
Cheers, John AKA, tin-man?
I just finished a welding class at a local community college. The head of the welding program told us that for students who finish the courses and get their certification, he can hook them up with employers who will pay them $14 an hour to start. They will be apprentices at that point with opportunity to move up. Top skilled welders can make 6 figures. But you don't start there. We started with 15 in our evening class and ended up with 9 or 10. We have nearly 20% unemployment in our counties. Classes are cheap and grants or financial aid are available. Yet the classes do not always fill, and those that do never end up that way. The comments about shortage of welders are valid.
Pat
Nah,John..Inglewood,Taranaki..In New Zealand..Inglewood is a small town of about 5000 just south of New Plymouth,,same province that Tom Cruise lived in while filming "The Last Samurai"..Google Taranaki,or New Plymouth..Quote:
Originally Posted by tin-man
Comm Colleges and welding school grants--
I have always been telling people to take welding classes because the mechanics who can weld will get hired before those who can't---(I'm not talking about a Honda, Toyoda or other CAR DEALERSHIP)
I would love to sign up for a senior course(free tutition)(or these days government grant) just to play with some of that new equipment, but have not, solely to give an oppurtunity to someone else because of limited class sizes(availability of equipment)
I know the classes around here don't fill up and like Stu said not all see it through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
Jerry -
For two years I worked as an airline district sales manager in the very nice city of Des Moines, Iowa.
I had been wanting to learn gas welding for quite a while so when I read in the paper that the "continuing education" department at the high school was offering acetylene welding, I called and was told that the class was still open.
I paid the fee and went to the first meeting. The instructor was there with the department head who looked like a guy who had never worked at any kind of trade in his life. He said that to be eligible to take the welding course, welding had to be related to the job the prospective student currently had.
Well, welding was in no way relevant to a guy whose job was trying to get fannies in airplane seats.
I stuck up my hand and said something like "are you telling us that if some poor guy is out there washing dishes and wanting to learn a good trade so as to better himself, he can't take the course because welding isn't related to dish washing?"
The instructor laughed but the administrator didn't. He said he would get back to me. At the end of the session I went creeping up to him and apologized for mouthing off. He smiled and said that I had made a good point, and that that prerequisite was no longer in effect.
I took the course but I'm still not a very good welder.
Jim
Well--I been thru Dsm many times in B737, B727 --even came out to to fix an A/C truck in middle 60s while a UAL ground mech and I remember buying a pair of ray-bans at the little fob there----
Also I think I was there once when they were loading up an air irseal 747 with munitions for that touchy period of time with eygip???
Way back when I worked in the packing houses in Chicago.. I was taught how to gas weld as ALL our amonia lines were gas welded Sure don't want any holes in the weld. Later I was cerified several times for crane repairs and instalation...Every time we started a new job we had to be recertified. There realy wasn't any shortage( of welders or work) back then and most passed right away.
[QUOTE=tin-man;456248] There are more millionaires and billionaires in China now than most of the world combined. Sad fact of life.
John - while I appreciate your enthusiasm, you're way off base here. A "millionaire" is not a rare occurrence anymore and I would venture to say that there are several millionaires that post here on a regular basis (value of assets minus liabilities)..
According to Forbes, there are just over 1,200 billionaires in the world, specifically;
United States has 412 billionaires or - 34%
China – 115 - 10%
Russia – 101 - 8%
India – 54 - 4%
Germany – 52 - 4%
Turkey – 38- 3%
Hong Kong – 36 - 3%
United Kingdom – 32 - 3%
Brazil - 30 - 2%
The "rest of the world" has the other 19% is decreasing numbers..
The richest entity in the world is Carlos Slim Helu & family of Mexico - $74B
The US has four of the top ten - representing over 170 billion dollars (Gates - $56B, Buffett - $50B, Ellison - $39.5B and the Walton family - $26.5B)
The "richest" Chinese is Li Ka-shaing (Hong Kong) at 26 billion. That's not chopped liver, but is pales to the total
Total controlled by Chinese "billionaires" is +/- $230B
US billionaires alone control $1,578B
Doesn't make me any happier about the volume of product we import from China nor the fact that the Chinese government owns 37% of our national debt - but real money still lives in America. I'd like to see our government re-write procurement laws to favor more American made goods and services but the unfortunate result of our ultra greedy "entitlement generation" is a boat load of people who have gotten so used to instantaneous gratification that they don't know how to work and they have grown lazy. I'm afraid we've not see the worst of our economic woes as we continue to borrow at the government level.
I'm ranting, but at least it's to my friends!!
Glenn
[QUOTE=glennsexton;456441]No issues Glen my point was made in support of the prior post and while I did not refer to Forbes when I made my comment, China is for sure churning out wealthy people by the day at the expense of foreign funded companies prior relationships. Hyperbole for sure, but sadly based on hard facts regarding being subject to cloning, back yard rip-offs or just plain government backed funding to support development of proprietary designs attained thru less than legal means or just plain reverse-engineering. One thing for sure I am not one of them. :LOL::LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by tin-man
Cheers, John, AKA, tin-man
Zhuhai P.R.C.
Is it safe for you to be making comments like that??? aren't THEY watching what you do???
In my othere hobby (trains) china has taken over. I don't believe you can buy anything related to that hobby that is made in the USA
made in china assembled in mexico, broken in the US
I did a google map search of Zhuhai and found some very elaboate highway/street systems around and about some very upscale elaborate houses---
and also many,many 10-20 story apartment buildings with absolutely no parking places or street access---
Having been in the education business for 33 years including teaching an upper level (3rd year college) laboratory course, I can tell you that even in college there is a need for basic instruction. I tried to make my lab course 50% use of modern whiz bang equipment and 50% put-it-together experiments. Eventually I was overridden by folks who wanted to use only "modern equipment". Recently I visited the lab in which I taught for over thirty years and by golly my old sign "Make It Work!" was still on the wall! Folks here might be surprised that most Physicists and Physical Chemists have small lathes in their laboratories and make their own electro-optical experiments but you can't do that stuff in high schools because of the well known tendency of teen age students to do dangerous things. I do not know if this is still true but in my Freshman year at what used to be Drexel Institute of Technology (now Drexel University, complete with a Medical School) we all had to take courses in Mechanical Drawing, Basic Machine Shop and Surveying because they knew there would probably be a lot of changes in major in the second year. Even though I did change to Chemistry I used most of those skills (including basic Surveying when adding a wing on my home) later in Physical Chemistry and had to complete four of the five years in the Cooperative Education program with six months of each year in an industrial job. At the time I only entered the CO-OP program so I could pay my way through college but later I realized the value of the practical experience. One of my first jobs was as a Millwright Helper in a large plant and I got to participate in installation of large equipment and major machine shop projects. Later in Physical Chemistry I used mechanical drawing to coordinate with first class machinists to make various special electro-optical devices. At the very least Cooperative Education Programs should be expanded for Science and Engineering programs. I missed out on welding and I see that a lot of folks on this Forum can do some neat things by fabricating their own build projects. Is there a link to a Stossel reply to this problem? Probably this Forum is one of the best examples of the usefulness of basic trade skills in "making stuff". There is a lot to learn and admire on this site.
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Don, I can identify with your post from first hand experience. When I entered the university in 1965 every entering ME student took Graphics 1&2, a semester of Casting & Welding, and a semester of Machine Shop. There were two old WWII metal buildings housing working shops, including a lineup of engine lathes that we worked, even learning to cut threads on the lathe. In the second year the Metalurgy class had a three hour lab each week where we took alloy samples, mounted them in resin and then polished them to a high luster before etching them with a mild acid to expose the grain structure - all this to duplicate what we were reading about in the book. After two years I left school, ended up in the Navy for four years and then worked a couple of years before I got brave enough to go back and finish my degree. I had been gone six years, and when I went back the programs had been totally revamped - no more drafting classes (engineers tell the drafters what to draw), no more intro to machine processes shop classes, no more metalurgy lab, and no more Sr Engineering Projects to graduate (I had watched in awe in '66 when a graduating Senior was cutting a ring gear for his differential as his Senior Design Project!!) Everything was in the books now, and the labs were pretty tame, doing canned experiements to demonstrate some theory or another. One bright spot was a thermo professor who had a side-line consulting business, and in lab one day he had us running a complex set of steam table calcs, and once we had about a dozen points he wandered back in, asked us to plot the results and discuss what it might represent. That profile represented the phase change from water to steam with changing pressure - turned out he had a contract to design the ideal spray nozzle for a car wash, and he was looking at varying the storage temp and pump pressure to stay just below the steam point. Never did find out how much he made from our afternoon of lab work, but I never forgot the lesson....
Teachers institute day here today and they are at a high school only a couple of miles from here--thinking about going over and canvas the parking lot to see what autos that our finest teachers drive--when we went buy before lunch didn't see a single USA car in the lane near the street!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jerry, any more what is an American made car? Even Fords, Chevys and Dodges are often made some where else and what we consider foreign cars are made here in the USA by American workers. The line is definitely blurred.
Pat
Here's a link to an interesting read on cars assembled in this country.... It points out that buying "American made" isn't near as cut and dried as it used to be!!!!
Made in America? Hard to tell - The Boston Globe
Quietly in whispered tones he said after looking over his shoulder: the Sphincter Police are more concerned about their kids getting involved in nasty western sexually explicit web sites and abhor the thought they could communicate freely among themselves thru twitter or other social networks. But reverse engineering and doing what comes naturally to make a buck at other peoples expense, naw, no matter, bring it on.:LOL:Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry clayton
tin-man