The Reno Plane crash-Wow

I have been following the story about the race plane crash in Reno.The most recent development is how these guys mod the planes to make them faster.One thing this guy did was over the yrs to cut off 10' of the wing span.From what I read it is common to do that.Other thing that is under investigation is the trim at the tail of the plane.The reports I read is there isn't much of the original plane left.The question I guess for the novice is if the mods still leave the planes safe/stable.These guys that fly them are going 500mph with nerves of steel low to the ground.:eek:

I don't go to airshows because of exactly what just happened. Too many accidents like this and you are a sitting duck on the ground. We had one in our hometown years ago and everybody from work was going, but we stayed home. A plane did crash, luckily only a few spectators were hurt, but that did it for me.

Don

The modifications to the P51 Mustang are normal for race planes, and the plane is extremely stable with the stubby wings - there are a bunch of P51 racers in this configuration. Consider that the original wing area was designed for combat, including the extra load of munitions (bombs, torpedos, & lots of bullets) plus belly tanks for longer distances. In racing trim the planes do not need that extra lift. The trim at the tail that is being investigated is due to amature video of the flight that seemed to show a part falling from the area of the plane just before the pilot lost control, and they believed it to be an elevator trim tab which helps to balance the control surfaces. Loss of one, leaving the tab on the other side would tend to add a "twist" to the plane, and at speed may have been a serious issue.

The added risk of the Reno Air Races is that they race at extreme low altitude, sometimes only 50' to 100' above the ground leaving little margin for error or time for corrections. Yes, they are dangerous, but these planes are meticulously maintained. I hate to hear the groundswell of emotion calling for these vintage planes to be grounded and the races to be stopped. I have never attended Reno, but I did attend a race here in KC about 10 years back and they are an amazing display of horsepower and control.

You know Roger I am not saying these races should be ban.In all racing to the racers and to the fans there is a risk.It is just the way things are in racing.The one fact that stuck me is in most racing short of air and salt flats racing there is retaining walls to help protect the spectators.With air show racing there can't be that level of safety.It is a safety problem that somehow needs to be worked out.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

You know Roger I am not saying these races should be ban.In all racing to the racers and to the fans there is a risk.It is just the way things are in racing.The one fact that stuck me is in most racing short of air and salt flats racing there is retaining walls to help protect the spectators.With air show racing there can't be that level of safety.It is a safety problem that somehow needs to be worked out.

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Gary, I did not say that you were calling for a ban, I said there is a groundswell of emotion driving a call for a ban. In the news accounts (KC Star front page, for example (we had a local family injured, and one lady is still missing)) the coverage states, "The disaster prompted renewed calls for race organizers to consider ending the event because of the dangers." It also points out that this crash marks the first time any spectators have been killed in the 47 years of the Reno Air Races, and that twenty pilots have died during that period. My opinion is that the participants and spectators know well of the risks when they choose to fly or buy a seat. Like Don says, anyone can elect to stay at home and read the results in the paper.

You would think there could be a wire screen of some type that would allow visibility and at the same time a measure of defense against flying shrapnel. The sight of that plane hitting the ground and the shock wave with pieces flying thru the air was scary!!!

This is why I no longer go to air shows - at our local airport - I was well away from that flying rotor.

Canadian Sea king crash - YouTube

That Reno crash - makes you wonder if all the mods made were well engineered for the stresses imposed if indeed it was a tab or aileron failure as suspected. I did read on report that said maybe an engine or other mech failure, the pilot pulled up, lost consciousness from g forces, and the plane augered in due to low and unrecoverable altitude

The problem with installing some type of screen is establishing the design criteria that provides sufficient protection but still provides necessary/desired visibility. What is the minimum weight & size of the shrapnel that one considers necessary to block? By installing a screen the organizers are accepting liability for anything that might harm a spectator who now assumes that the screen is "protecting" them. Also, since the races are held in different venues this screening system needs to be portable, and capable of being broken down for storage when it is not needed, right? Sorry, but this is an area where the spectator, like the pilots, assumes resposibility for their own well being. If you don't want to go, knowing that you could possibly be killed (47 year positive track record for spectator deaths at Reno until now) then you stay home. If you want to watch air races there is some inherent danger there, and you attend knowing that danger. Same with other high power race venues, you assess the risks, and attend if you want to be there first hand, and if you accept the inherent risks.

Well two races in two days and two very different results:

2 air show crashes, 2 very different outcomes - Yahoo! News

Is these over reported??. Well I think in this case it is. Well when you consider a crash in a national NASCAR event it is covered.Right??. But on the same day,week,month on a local level doesn't see national coverage.Same holds true for NHRA and IHRA.Crashes happen in racing.The big three NASCAR,NHRA,IHRA have done a outstanding job with rules to protect drivers,pit crews,and spectators.Those rules deem what is safe or not and surly pit passes have a release you sign.I don't think with NASCAR and the type of fencing by spectators accepts liability.Maybe some sort of coverage for air shows like that could be incorporate.I would think the insurance companies really regulate these shows.I think the big three found that out yrs ago and have done everything they can to keep from getting tangled up with the insurance issues.Maybe if the air show racing took into account how high or low the planes where flying and regulate the speeds on that bases would be a good starting point.It would allow for more recovery time if a problem occured in flight.

Racing organizations and sanctioning bodies should be allowed to regulate themselves without interference from outside sources.... Racing is inherently dangerous and I'm also quite sure that the spectators are aware of the inherent dangers of being a spectator. If it scares you, don't go. I would bet that statistically cell phone usage while driving kills more people then all of racing combined in a years time!!!!

Lets not let big brother and/or other outside interests take control over more things then they already control!!!!! To heck with the media hype!!! Death and accidents from any source make good news copy! I would also bet that most who bitch about safety in racing have absolutely nothing to do with the sport! Some people like to go fast and when two of them get together there's going to be a race.....if those watching aren't intelligent enough to realize the risk then they should have adequate supervision in their lives to make sure they don't unwittingly attend such events!!!!

It was a racing ACCIDENT, and accidents will continue to happen---that's why they are called accidents!!!! If some of these do gooders had their way, everything with any danger or risk involved would be discontinued. Racers in all types of racing realize the risk involved, that's why lots of them race to just keep one foot over the edge and take the risks!! Don't let a bunch of uninformed do-gooders take away any more of our pastimes and passions!!!! Let racers be racers---if it scares you, don't go to the event!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Dave Severson

Racing organizations and sanctioning bodies should be allowed to regulate themselves without interference from outside sources.... Racing is inherently dangerous and I'm also quite sure that the spectators are aware of the inherent dangers of being a spectator. If it scares you, don't go. I would bet that statistically cell phone usage while driving kills more people then all of racing combined in a years time!!!!

Lets not let big brother and/or other outside interests take control over more things then they already control!!!!! To heck with the media hype!!! Death and accidents from any source make good news copy! I would also bet that most who bitch about safety in racing have absolutely nothing to do with the sport! Some people like to go fast and when two of them get together there's going to be a race.....if those watching aren't intelligent enough to realize the risk then they should have adequate supervision in their lives to make sure they don't unwittingly attend such events!!!!

It was a racing ACCIDENT, and accidents will continue to happen---that's why they are called accidents!!!! If some of these do gooders had their way, everything with any danger or risk involved would be discontinued. Racers in all types of racing realize the risk involved, that's why lots of them race to just keep one foot over the edge and take the risks!! Don't let a bunch of uninformed do-gooders take away any more of our pastimes and passions!!!! Let racers be racers---if it scares you, don't go to the event!!!!!

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Amen, Brother, Amen, Amen! Well said, Dave! We don't need more regulation in our events, regardless the risks that are inherent. Let's put the responsibility back with the individual, and get away from the litigation element when ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!!

When I think of race events I parallel that to two cases in my life' experiences in insurance's limitations.I do not advocate that insurances get involved.But I am reporting what I have found.Frankly NHRA is a sectioning body that has insurance implications.Anyways-back when I toured mixing sound for live concerts say "X" band would record and then go on tour to promote record sales.Went I first started that the "X" band's tour because of the numerous concert dates would be about 6 months.Good gig for me for sure.A couple of issues happened and the media put up a big stink and yepper the number of shows because of the outlandish insurance riders that where required of promoters cut the concerts in haft.:eek:

The other case where insurance has over run a industry is in trucking.No doubt about it.

So if the air shows want to continue to self regulate,I think they have to show they can.Make some rule changes.Maybe slow down the planes abit.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

So if the air shows want to continue to self regulate,I think they have to show they can.Make some rule changes.Maybe slow down the planes abit.

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Gary, we'll simply agree to disagree on this point. Limiting the speed of the aircraft is meaningless, IMO. The issue here is spectators, not the racing. If people choose to attend and buy box seats for the races they accept the risk, and there's nothing else to say about it, again IMO.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

So if the air shows want to continue to self regulate,I think they have to show they can.Make some rule changes.Maybe slow down the planes abit.

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If folks don't like the way the Air Show people regulate races, then there is two things they should do:
1. Don't participate
2. Don't spectate

The last thing we need right now is to have the uninformed take charge of more things so they can protect us from ourselves!!!!!!

Guys.I am saying they should make the good show changes to prevent other outside interventions.LOL-did I say that right??.:confused:

The way 'Big Brother' is slinging regulations and laws at us, we sure as heck don't need spectator sports to have their heavy hand there too. Look at baseball - and Senate hearings with the use of steroids - it's none of their damn business if Roger Clements or others used them. Go to a doctor's office and read that Hipaa form. Even your wife/partner can't get any information. Then Obamacare - and the regulations go on and on and on.

Dam' ya got me started.

If you don't want to spectate, as Dave S said, don't. It's a heluva lot more dangerous statistically wise driving to an event to be a spectator then being there. As a participant, your odds do go up. Heck, stay home, maybe even stay in bed with a pillow over your head. Oh and the odds of being hit by a piece of space junk now about to come down, 1 in 3200 (Defunct NASA satellite to crash to Earth this week | Reuters) so that pillow - wont help.

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Originally Posted by 1gary

Guys.I am saying they should make the good show changes to prevent other outside interventions.LOL-did I say that right??.:confused:

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Gary,
With a track record of 47 years without a spectator death why are changes warranted at Reno? Air races are inherently dangerous, both to the participants and to those who choose to spectate. It is what is is, and IMO no change is warranted, either from internal or external points of view. If you disagree that is fine, but the venue has a very good safety record, blemished by one accident.

first sorry for the loss of life . but it is a race bad things can happen fast. if i had front row box seats would i be there you bet i would. if my number came up and i had to go out i could not think of a better way to go . people die crossing the street geting hit by trucks we can not really make trucks safe to get hit by ? well some what but less its parked it is never going to be 100%. thing s can be looked in to for better safety ? well that is hard were do you stop? the real sad thing is that this maybe the last of the air show and for someone that loves the sound of a piston engine getting push to the max in a old war bird like The Sexy P51 that to bad if it gets to apoint were we can not hear or see the planes any more and look at them only in museum setting so there safe if you want safe then go look at them at the museum but if you want to see them get pushed to the max know what your risk is going to be .your just like the guy in the plane there is going to be some risk to you

This discussion is all my fault.I didn't think it threw well enough when I posted the topic.I don't think I wrote it right either.I promise to all of you my intent was to have us pray for the families and a curiosity about things like if they use "G" suits,mechanics of the planes etc.

I am very sorry the way this turned out and will try to it better in other threads I start.

Gary

The leading cause of death is being borne. Nobody gets out alive.

Gary, you can't control where a thread goes as you're opening it up to other folks point of view. None of us sees anything exactly like another. Same for incidents like this. While it's sad, the perspective is wrong, as already pointed out above. If those people that died from this accident had lived, who's to say they wouldn't have slipped in the tub tomorrow and died of a head injury. We're all going to die of something some time.................can't ban everything. The last dead count I heard was 10, more people than that die each day on our streets and hyways, but people don't want to ban driving (well most of them anyway) because they get too much benefit from it. Most of those that are pontificating against the air races don't participate in any way so see no value, but would readily take away someone elses enjoyment, and risk taking. It's a creeping disease we seem to have.

What made me furious the other day was an ABC reporter who was spewing something like "it's just like taking a 60 year old jalopy and hopping it up to race. anytime you modify something it becomes inheritly more dangerous." it was about this time that I started screaming at the TV and my mind went blank, so I'm not sure what else he said. The Reno accedent was very unfortunate, and my heart goes out to those who lost loved ones, but we of the human race like to do and see competative things with an element of danger in them, and sometimes those things bite us in the butt. I've been involved in several high risk sports, and most of them have bitten me back a time or two. would I change anything if I could do it again? hell no. the people who want to regulate fun out of existance can sit on the couch when they're 90 and wish they had done 1/2 of what I DID do. I want to be broke and totally worn out the day I die...... but not a day sooner ;)

Russ