Thread: A Bad Crash

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I'm having dinner with him next Friday.
Ken

If this was an aluminum axle---where it is broke could have been caused by a fatique crack from a nick from a jack stand as that is probably exactly where a stand would be placed and also when you mount a beam axle with either split wishbones/4 bars to outside of frame rails vs a single point underneath like the car was designed(1930s) you subject it to a tremendous amount of twisting which would tend to break exactly where this one is broken===

If it is chromed, could hydrogen imbrittlement be a factor?

Don

The right spindle and kingpin are missing (as in completely gone) from the two photo's.

The broken axle could have been "the result" of the crash and possibly not "the cause" if the axle kingpin boss or the spindle broke.

Broken cast steel looks just like the photo when it's freshly broken, but rusts up in a day or two.

If you look at my thread,"One way to total a '32 Roadster" and look at the front axle of that car they are all pretty similar. This car belongs to a fellow club member so I know first hand there were no failures. When the car flipped it's first contact with the ground was the right front wheel and the axle snapped. I don't think this would be a bad product or inferior metal when you consider the weight of a steel '32 roadster several feet off the ground landing on that corner of the car. Just my 2 cents.
Ken

However---the visable evidence of the broken parts COULD of caused the car to flip---

This car appears to have high polished parts including aircraft qual clevises, etc--no room for any movement of parts as with rubber bushed bars--result-every steering or suspension movement puts a tremendous load on the total sum of the assy---failure will occur at the end of the longest unit, weakest point, or a stress risor type nick--

Is this an ALUMINUM axle??? has it ever been on jack stands???

Here's an up-date on the latest accident.
Lonnie, the guy that owns the beautiful Volksrod bug, called the "Firebug" has posted on the Volksrod forum. Here is what he had to say:

Gentlemen, my name is Lonnie Gilbertson, I built and own the Fire Bug. I appreciate and am humbled by the concerns expressed here. I am 65 years old and have been building cars all my life. (check me out at Lonnie's Place.com). I want to share the truth in hopes that I can prevent someone else bearing the grief that befell me. I took crap from my V8 buddies when I started to build my bug, however, I remembered the 1835 in my Dune Buggy I did in the 70's and knew the potential. Being an old Hot Rodder the early Ford straight axle kit by Speedway appealed to me, so I bought a 1975 standard Bug and was on my way. I will be happy to share the build with anyone that needs information. But for now I will skip to taking my 2332 cc 091 bus transaxxle Hot Rod Fire Bug to the Portland Roadster Show. At shows end to the amazement of several people I drove it home. I left the show floor all smiles by the time I got home I was all frowns. The car was un-drivable. To keep the car between the curbs was a major undertaking. In analyzing the problem, I discovered that sitting on the ground I had a normal 1/8" toe in, I could jack the car up at the perch bolts and it wold change to 1/2" toe out. At this point you might think bump steer, however, lifting at the perch bolds induces no suspension movement. The problem was axle flex. I could measure from the frame to the center of the king pin, jack it up to take the weifht off the tire and the king pin would move out 1/8" plus. This on a car that weighs little on the front compared to the V8 this setup should carry. With my experience it did not take long to figure out the steering set-up Speedway said to use would not work. I bought a cross steer rack and pinion and set it up in a traditional Hot Rod style. In an unconventional way I built my own steering arms and hooked everything at the top of the spindle. Thinking I might have created my own problem I bought Speedway dropped steering arms and moved the tie rod to the bottom of the spindle, like it would be stock. The net result was 1/4" tow change instead of 5/8" with the tie rod on top. I called Speedway and was told that I bought an early kit and all their early kits were junk, they have done a re-desigh to correct problems. I told them I had corrected the problems, however, I had trouble with axle flex, they told me to call the Manufacturer, it wasn't their problem. A call to the Manufacturer put me in touch with the owner he was very interested in helping me fix my problem. He suggested different alignment settings. Changing to his suggested settings the car semed to settle down. On Friday evening I test drove the car and had a friend do the same, although it was not perfect it seemed safe. Five O'clock Saturday morning I left my house by 5:10 am the Fire Bug was destroyed. A friend that was following said that it looked like the car dropped on the right front and left the road. From the drivers seat the Bug took a hard right, in trying to steer left nothing happened, I impacted a mail box, an oak tree, and a telephone pole. With cross steering the right front is the master and left the slave. If the right becomes disconnected you have no control of the left. It happened so fast I can't tell the order of events the only facts I know are1) it is a 5" drop cast iron axle,(2) The king pin boss on the right front is broken in half. (3) The axle is broken in half 2" inboard of the perch bolt. (4) The heavy damage to the right front wheel is on the inside as if it was turned hard right on impact. (5) I could not bring the car left once it took off right. (6) A friend that was following said it looked like the car dropped to the right before it left the road. I will never! Never! Ever run a cast axle again. On a personal note admit-tingly I am a Sunny Day Driver, however, I do not own Trailer Queens. I hope this helps someone. Thanks for letting me express myself. This is the first time I have ever posted anything to any site. I hope this will get read and not lost. Thank You,
Lonnie

If you would like to read the whole thread you can find it here...http://www.volksrods.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30628

Thank you Lonnie for your help, Walt

I'm with Pops on this one regarding the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement. Though Gilbertson did a reasonably thorough description, he failed to mention anything about the plating process, perhaps he's unaware of the potential problems.

I'd love to see the end grain of the break to see if there is any discoloration to indicate a fracture that was undetected before the failure, or if it were consistent in color indicating a sudden, catastrophic failure. Based on the discription from Gilbertson it sounds a lot like what could happen with hydrogen embrittlement, especially considering how few miles/time of use his discription implies.

Originally Posted by Bob Parmenter

I'm with Pops on this one regarding the possibility of hydrogen embrittlement. Though Gilbertson did a reasonably thorough description, he failed to mention anything about the plating process, perhaps he's unaware of the potential problems.

I'd love to see the end grain of the break to see if there is any discoloration to indicate a fracture that was undetected before the failure, or if it were consistent in color indicating a sudden, catastrophic failure. Based on the discription from Gilbertson it sounds a lot like what could happen with hydrogen embrittlement, especially considering how few miles/time of use his discription implies.

Lonnie described a suspicious discoloration at the brake at the king pin boss.

Some shots of Dave's car apart.
Ken

It's good to see the front axle bend that far (about a 90 degree twist) without breaking. Any idea what brand axle was on the car?

Good to see the inner structure photos. They sure provided a good mounting point for the seat and belts, IMO. All of that four link suspension frame was nicely hidden in a normal "highboy looking" package.

Nice car.

John - I don't know, but will find out all the specifics next week end. Our club is meeting his club for a run starting next Thursday threw Sunday. I'll post then.
Ken

Just glad he's o.k. Ken.

Did he ever say what happen. Or did I just not read what happen

Ken-have they found out if he is going to regain full use of his arm yet??.