Why do the brain dead reporters keep calling this the big 3 bail out when ford in not included???????
It is really the big 2 bail out for the record.
Ford is taking NO money.
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Why do the brain dead reporters keep calling this the big 3 bail out when ford in not included???????
It is really the big 2 bail out for the record.
Ford is taking NO money.
I hear yah. I'm not opposed to bailing any of these guys out, but would like to put some big stipulations to the money. 1) The company is no longer run by big buck execs who take huge salaries and bonuses, instead it becomes a employee run COOP! I don't think a assembly worker making $12.50 an hour would approve a 36 million golden handshake or the private corperat jet trips, season tickets to the Packers......2) They have to pay it back to the people..that's right you and me. Either as a car discount incentive, or cash!:3dSMILE:
Shawn, based on the numbers, Ford certainly seems to be in better shape than the other two, and I think that Mulally deserves some credit for that. But having said that they're sitting at the same table holding out a tin cup too, so when you bed with dogs don't be surprised if you get up with fleas. Besides, this is really a bailout for the UAW (that's not the same as saying its all their fault, they are a significant contributor though) that would explain why Ford has to go along.
Steve, are you going to run for Congress?;)
I could go on, but it just so happens there were two pieces in the WSJ today, the first by a sensible Democrat who actually knows how to run a business; http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122887092443993347.html
The second by a columnist who gets it: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122887051709693341.html
that pretty much save me a lot of typing.
I say let them fall. I once heard that this country is founded upon capitalism. In my eyes, the 'big three' learned NOTHING from the fuel crisis of Carter's administration. They went right back to making big gas guzzlers, at the time when the whole rest of the world was going compact, fuel efficient, and alternative energy vehicles.
CEOs took more, more, and more for themselves, utterly disregarding the good of the company. Unions also, did their absolute best to bleed the companies dry.
If memory serves: a union exec at a recent negotiation, declared the union would rather "See the company shut its door than to make a single concession". Ok, so now they are reaping the benifits of thier arrogance. The unltimate irony is that the unions would never have formed had the auto makers simply treated them well from the beginning. And now the unions, through their inflexibility have brought the corporations to their knees. Between wages and legacy costs, the corporations can no longer produce vehicles profitably.
No, indeed no, let them fall. Bailing them out is analagous to giving a dunkard another bottle of booze. The big execs demonstrated total incompetence, and absolute lack of comprehension when they flew down individually, in Leer jets, to ask for bailout money.
No, let them fall. The Koreans, Chineese, Japanese, etc will buy up the plants and have them up and running again within the year. Without unions, and at fair pay, and reasonable leadership.
Ford is better off with cash right now, but not for long. If the other 2 restructure and Ford does not, Ford will be, uh, Found On Road Dead. :LOL:
The $15B 'bridge' funding with all its stipulations is available to all 3 if it passes.
Kitz
Have any of you seen or read the posts on other sites where Ford is going to sue and make any site that is car specific stop using the cars name? For instance Mustangs Unlimited got a letter from them supposedly telling them they could not use the Mustang name and there is a site like this one that is for the Ford Ranger owners and that site administrator said he had received notice from ford that he could not use the Ranger name any more as that was their name. Talk about a way to win customers and when they have their hands out wanting the tax payers to bail them out. I suppose all sites with any Ford car name are going to be receiving the same warning to stop using the name.
Ron :confused:
I would rather have the big 3 bailed out than for them to keep spending my money on failing banks and brokerage firms. At least the big 3 bailout will be saving jobs. They need to make stipulations that they are run by other personnel than what has gotten them into this mess in the first place.
let them fall? are you literally insane? yes lets end all industry left int he usa be completely dependant on other countries for everything them let our own government round us up and ship us off to slave camps :eek: its closer then you think :LOL:
The Czar or whatever foolish name they have given him ,will tell them how to run their business or they have to pay back any bailout loans.........:eek:
Sounds like a prime place for foolishness to run wild...?????
A year or so ago in HEMMINGS CLASSIC CAR magazine there was a series of articles about how the auto companies pitched in to manufacture war material, weapons, guns, tanks, planes and all that good stuff that helped us win WWII. If these companies are allowed to fail and disappear, I fear we will be sitting ducks for whatever government wants to start the next BIG ONE. I know wars will never be fought like they were then, with smart bombs and laser guided rockets and such, but without these big manufacturing centers I feel we could be at risk.
yes that has been in the back of my mine to. alot of guys on here are not in mich so it is EZ to say let them fail .they do not live in mich and if you think at will not affect you in some way i think you are very wrong . ok what to do ? hell i do not know. but what i do know is the union needs to be busted they have gm and other by the throat they are and are killing the host sucking the life bood out of the big 3 till dead . i know many that have work for gm they have allways made alot more money then anyone that did not work for gm some good workers some not worth a damn. but could not be fired easily the union back them up so i think the union needs to get fired i may have to pull this i could be shot for saying this :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzwilly
You know it's funny that just years ago we were buying everything that all the car Manufactures were making. The SUV's, big trucks, cars, etc. with no thought of what the gas mileage was on them. Now in the last year gas prices go up, cars don't sell and the big three get the blame. Come on guys, it's not entirely there fault. Banks crash, people can't get loans and cars aren't selling. Now what would happen if all three went out of business. All the companies that make the parts for your vehicles are gone, no dealerships, insurance companys go broke, etc. and where would that put us? ression, hell no. Your takling about a depression. I think the only way the car companys can make it is the unions have to settle for a much lower wage than the average assembly person makes. With benefits it's over $70.00/hr. Not to shabby of a income is it??? And the CO's and CEO's would have to go and make way for new people or else the same thing is going to happen all over again. Just my 2 cents worth.
you are so rigth No one push them big trucks and suv they built down any ones throat .they built what sold and you wanted to buy it if we had fuel at 1.40 and a endless supply of fuel it would be somewhat better ???Quote:
Originally Posted by chevy 37
I dont know to much about the auto bizz BUT if your not making any money now (so they claim) Just how are they going to repay the TAXPAYERS you an me? Just wondering arent you?
I think the whole bailout thing is kind of like a fashion trend or a fad, maybe???? Still can't find a listing in DC for the Department of Bailout, I could sure use a few billion to help with our racing budget!!!
The banks got their big bailout, seems like they're just sitting on the money....If the big 3 have such a workable plan and it's a slam dunk for an istant return on investment, why don't the banks loan them the money???
I figured all 3 would welcome restructurring under Chapter 11, would give them a chance to dump the unions and negotiate with workers based on productivity, attendance, job improvement recomendations and things that might actually make a difference!!!!
I respect the unions for what they helped to accomplish making working conditions better and safer for workers, but haven't they really outlived their usefullnes now??? Friend of mine, retired about 5 years, was a UAW member for 30 years...not by choice but because he was more or less forced to belong... His opinion was that the UAW's main purpose was to protect the slackers and hold back the go-getters!!!! Having never been in a union I would have no idea if that is true, but it's what he's been saying about the union for years.....
.Quote:
Originally Posted by firebird77clone
The sad thing is, To better explain this. I work for 2, not 1 , but 2 major automotive builders. And the problem falls with not bailing them out is. For every one aoutomotive worker that loses thier job, there will be another 20 to 25 people or more in other factories that will lose thier jobs.
Auto factories are merely assymbely plants. All the cars parts, dashes, carpet, seats, door pads, stereos, speakers, consoles, glass, mirrors, engines, trannys, susspensions, tires, rims, cladding, grills, tail and headlights, wiring, ETC, ETC, ETC, These items are made elsewhere and transported to the assymbly plants, Woops the truckers delivering the stuff just lost thier jobs too. Everything from the raw steel in foundries layed in sheets for the stamped panels to the ash tray and everything in between comes to a hault.
Even deeper thinking, the people maknig the tools to provide equipment, robotic equipment, welders, hand tools, uniforms, safety glasses, shoes, ETC, ETC, ETC, again. all that stuff adds in too. I think it is a bad deal all around, The companies sure did not plan things out very well for the long haul, Some of this could have been avoided throughout all the needless high time CEO spending, 9 million dollar paychecks, private jets, 10 million dollar concept cars that would never see the road all for just saying look what we built. millions of dollars on private parties and stupid crap. Not to mention all factories are way far over managed by people that think it looks good on paper, but in reality it sometimes does not work.
It kinda makes me sick now that I think of it in a big picture.
it true i know someone that got very sick trying to get some of the lazzy ass s to work never got any where. but his life threaten by workers and they at the end of the day the workers still did get paid not to work .what did the guy i know what did he did get for trying to make workers do better. he has cancer and a job that just about made him nuts. i know all the $hit he put up with and all the stress he put up with makes me wonder if it added to his very bad heath ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Severson
Bankruptcy doesn't necessarily mean closure.... Sure it could happen, but what usually happens is the management team is replace, there are new investors and after an "adjustment period", many business that have been in Chapter 11 come back stronger and more profitable then ever....
I guess these days, even in big business, it's easier to wait for the government to fix things then it is to kick ***, take names, and run a business in a profitable manner....
Ditto on what Dave said twice.
Chapter 11 can be a re-birth if done right, but can we trust them to do it right. The Big 3 have had numerous opportunities in the past to revamp and restructure, but they have always stayed the course of business as usual. That won't work this time, it's change or die. Or at least it should be.:eek:
I realize the ramifications that can and may run through all of the industries in the automotive loop, and I hope all can survive to play again another day, but change must come if any or all want to be around for another decade.
Using taxpayer money to bail these irresponsible companies out (including the investment firms and banks) is pure bullshit.:mad: Taxes will have to increase on all levels of income to offset the realocation of funds that were meant for other purposes, such as education, defense, exploration, and homeland security. There is just so much money to go around, so something has to give it up so the loanee's can get their needs met.:(
I am glad to see this thread, I wanted to start the same idea but am not sure how to start a thread on this new Forum. Anyway some sensible stuff has already been said but let me say some of what Bob and Pat said. Back in the 1880-1900 era working conditions were terrible and unions were needed and effective in raising wages, improving safety and gaining benefits for workers. But we now have quite a few laws that prevent most of the abuses of workers. I would think that unions are still needed in coal mining but of course the new Administration will effectively eliminate any need for coal in the near future?!? The point is that there is a need for checks and balances between workers and employers but over the years unions have gotten greedy and the result is that GM is being drained of it's life blood by things like paid laid off workers and retirements before Medicare can kick in. I am horrified that GM might go down and pull Ford with it; Chrysler has been on the ropes for a long time. In my opinion it is the UAW that has caused this problem and the Democratic Congress is trying to bail out the Big 3 mainly to keep the UAW in business. That is why some Republicans want to see bankruptcy result so that Chapter 11 can cancel the UAW contracts! I have worked in union shops in my youth and saw what Pat said in that the unions protect the non-performers; especially in the Teacher Unions! My pet peeve is those effete environmentalists who keep saying that Detroit was not building the cars people want. I disagree, I think the gas crisis was sudden but people did want SUVs, minvans and muscle cars! After all the auto companies did market analysis and gambled on what people wanted and Lee Iacocca was a marketing genius who guessed right several times. Then all of a sudden the Prius-people say Detroit is not making what THEY wanted. I think the answer is for GM to build more Chevy Cobalts in various models. Some Plain Jane commuter Cobalts that get 38 mpg and others with turbos that are mini-muscle cars for some of us. The Prius-people just do not understand the "put-your-foot-in-it-and-fly" experience and maybe never will in a Prius! Sure electric cars are things of the near future but where is the grid to supply millions of cars? It is also evident in the design of electric cars that ever larger motors are being developed but where are the batteries? Hydrogen storage and fuel cells for in situ electric cars will get here eventually but I doubt it before 2025. The Chevy VOLT is a good idea for the intermediate development stage in the change over to electric cars. However the column by Brian Brennen in the February 2009 Street Rodder says Rodding is now mainly done by older men and a few interesting women and that they will stay with rodding long after the Prius becomes a market leader. Soooo, the Senate Republicans may prevent the bailout temporarily in the hope of cancelling the UAW contracts under bankruptcy, but the next administration will rescue the UAW and stretch out the life of the Big 3 for a little longer, but unless the UAW can be throttled back somehow the future looks like Joe Gibbs made a wise decision to go with Toyoto and NASCAR will be dominated by Toyota and maybe Ford. Will Ford survive if GM goes down? Probably not. What Pat said about the WWII mfgr of Jeeps, tanks and planes worries me too. Gee I really liked that SBC 350 that has lasted so long and the Buick 3.8 V6 is a pretty good motor too, but now we will be looking at OHC-4 cyls in the future. Anybody got a Miller/CRAGAR head for a Model A/B block?
Don Shillady
Retired SCientist/teen rodder
Yup, it's all the Democrats fault!!!!!!
I guess I don't see where party affilitation guarantees common sense or the ability to govern in a rational manner....
Again, does everything have to be blamed on one party or the other???? If so, then lets ad a new party, how about the party of common sense, and one that does what is best for the people who sent them there???? Bush and his cohorts have done such a wonderful job!!! Just last night, they changed the farm labor laws so that it is no longer necessary to try to hire a US citizen first, just go out and hire non US citizens on a work visa and to heck with unemployed US citizens..... I don't see where the republicans have done any better!!!!!!
Our two party system is a joke.... Justice is the best money can buy....
Oh well, the party is over anyway..... Few in government even give a hoot about what is best for the majority, and only care about what is best for them and their party... And we, as citizens of this once great country, perpetuate the greed and corruption of the system by arguing good and bad as Democrats and Republicans...... Then totally lose track of what is actually required to straighten this whole mess out and satisfy our own self-righteous indignation by blaming one party or the other for things gone bad..... Oh well, I guess if we all just continue to play this ridiculous game just a bit longer the whole system will self-destruct.... Maybe whatever starts up as a new system will be better, maybe not...
Unless individual responsibility and accountability comes into style and elected officials are judged on their personal merit instead of party affiliation, nothing will change and nothing will improve....
The blame the other party crap is the same as a magician's slight of hand.... While we watch the obvious, the "trick" goes unseen..... Then, when it's all over, we just sit around and wonder what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Dave, I think I stated the facts, the Democrats are pushing the bailout and as I said some of the Republicans are trying to stop it. I thought I was pretty mild in my analysis, but in any event it looks like the bailout will occur next February anyway. Frankly I sort of hope GM survives somehow and I have even written to my Republican Representative to recommend supporting the bailout but stop at all costs the Fascist Union Card Checkoff bill that may crop up in February. Gee that would be a way to put the UAW into the Toyoto and BMW plants too! Face it Dave, the idea that Independents could swing things went down with Perot so we have to recognize there is just a TWO party system that ebbs and flows. Sadly even heros like Cunningham screwed up and dirtied the Republicans so now it is the turn of some Democrat to mess up and so it goes. As far as I can tell CHANGE is just change for it's own sake; them or us back and forth and in the muddle some common sense eventually trickles through. Ironically I think the strength of our system IS the change in the elections and I think you have said before that you prefer term limits. As far as your preference for politicians with integrity, I am with you on that!
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder
Yup, we're stuck with the 2 party system..... Let's just keep things going the way they've been for the last 20 years, the other party done it, God is on our side, etc., etc., etc.
Oh well, when it all falls apart, gonna be one heck of a train wreck!!!!
Think I'll just plant me a big garden, sit on the deck and watch the whole thing implode!!!!!!!
The workers at the Toyota and BMW plants don't want the UAW, let the reps go out their and see what a real plant runs like!!!!
If people could just look beyond party affiliation and put the blame or the credit on the person, not the party!!!!! Parties don't become corrupt, people do. Parties can't straighten out this fiscal disaster, people can....
As I said, blaming "the party" is just a cop out and goes right along with what the "good old boy" politicians want us to do, which is point fingers and cast blame rather then look for viable solutions.....
Neither the government nor either party is not gonna fix this mess, they're the one's who caused it!!!!!
PS--Wasn't it old GW hisself who initially said we gotta have this bailout, it's right, trust me????? And that money is just laying in the banks so the big bankers can sit back and be smug again....
Let them fail....................and bring back Hudson and Studebaker.:D
I just wish that big government would stay out of big business. If the automakers can cower down to unions and allow them to bankrupt them with their ridiculous contracts, then let them cease to exist. The taxpayer should not have to carry the burden for this foolishness. Politicians are not good businessmen and have proven this over and over. The picture I got watching the congressional hearings was that of politicians trembling in their shoes trying to quickly make an educated decision that will be a quick fix that will save the "Big 3" of our auto industry. And the auto and union execs, knowing they had congress backed into the ropes, were doing their best not to bust out laughing at this entire congressional fiasco. This picture of gloom and doom painted by these execs has forced these politicians who fear unions, special interest groups, and voters to make a decision that I know they are not qualified to make. And the taxpayer will suffer for it. Sad. The strong businesses will survive this without government intervention, and a strong nation will also survive. The question is: Are we that strong nation we once were? If not, then we deserve to fail along with the auto industry.
:)
Well the Govt. couldn't run the whore houses they took over in Nevada and they had to go out of business and running them is a lot simpler than running one of the Big 3. Get rid of the party politic crap and start doing their job and serving the people and not each other. I don't care which party comes up with a good idea, both should use it if there are any idiots back there that are capable of having an original thought. I just finished reading a projection of what to expect next year to be like and it makes this year look good.
Ron :(
A few years back, one job in six was directly related to the automobile biz.
Now I understand that it's one job in ten.
Before you decide you want to have the automakers fail so as to teach them a lesson, better make sure your job isn't part of it....
And they ARE experts at whoring Ronnie!!!:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron75
Frome a friend:
It's in the way you dress. The way you boogie down. The way you sign your unemployment check. You're a man who likes to do things your own way. And on those special odd-numbered Saturdays when driving is permitted, you want it in your car. It's that special feeling of a zero-emissions wind at your back and a road ahead meandering with possibilities. The kind of feeling you get behind the wheel of the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition from Congressional Motors.
All new for 2012, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the mandatory American car so advanced it took $100 billion and an entire Congress to design it. We started with same reliable 7-way hybrid ethanol-biodeisel-electric-clean coal-wind-solar-pedal power plant behind the base model Pelosi, but packed it with extra oomph and the sassy styling pizazz that tells the world that 1974 Detroit is back again -- with a vengeance.
We've subsidized the features you want and taxed away the rest. With its advanced Al Gore-designed V-3 under the hood pumping out 22.5 thumping, carbon-neutral ponies of Detroit muscle, you'll never be late for the Disco or the Day Labor Shelter. Engage the pedal drive or strap on the optional jumbo mizzenmast, and the GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition easily exceeds 2016 CAFE mileage standards. At an estimated 268 MPG, that's a savings of nearly $1800 per week in fuel cost over the 2011 Pelosi.
Even with increased performance we didn't skimp on safety. With 11-point passenger racing harnesses, 15-way airbags, and mandatory hockey helmet, you'll have the security knowing that you could survive a 45 MPH collision even if the GTxi SS/Rt were capable of that kind of illegal speed.
But the changes don't stop there. Sporty mag-style hubcaps and an all-new aggressive wedge shape designed by CM's Chief Stylist Ted Kennedy slices through the wind like an omnibus spending bill. It even features an airtight undercarriage to keep you and a passenger afloat up to 15 minutes -- even in the choppy waters of a Cape Cod inlet. Available in a rainbow of color choices to match any wardrobe, from Harvest Avocado to French Mustard.
Inside, a luxurious all-velour interior designed by Barney Frank features thoughtful appointments like in-dash condom dispenser and detachable vibrating shift knob. A special high capacity hatchback holds up to 300 aluminum cans, meaning fewer trips to the redemption center. And the standard 3 speaker Fairness ActoPhonic FM low-band sound system means you'll never miss a segment of NPR again.
Best of all, the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt is made right here in the U.S.A. by fully card-checked unionized workers and Detroit 's famous visionary jet-set managers. Even if you don't own one, you can enjoy the patriotic satisfaction that you're supporting the high wages, good benefits, and generous political donations that are once again making the American car industry the envy of the world.
But why not buy one anyway? With an MSRP starting at only $629,999.99, it's affordable too. Don't forget to ask about dealer incentives, rebates, tax credits, and wealth redistribution plans for customers from dozens of qualifying special interest groups. Plus easy-pay financing programs from Fannie Mae.
So take the bus to your local CM dealer today and find out why the Pelosi GTxi SS/Rt Sport Edition is the only car endorsed by President Barack Obama. One test drive will convince you that you'd choose it over the import brands. Even if they were still legal.
The UAW won't budge on hourly wage adjustments until 2011. Senators say no to bailout passage and are going home. Sitting here shaking my head!
I'm late to this thread but, I think info like this is great for sending to Shawn Hannity if anyone has it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron75
Am I missing something... isn't Chrysler owned by the Germans?, Ford doesn't need the bailout (right now), that leaves GM. So how does that add up to the Big 3?
Bob I think you got the Pesoli features designed by Ted wrong. I believe he has the self bailing feature in case of water damage, with the one person escape raft!:eek:
What a hilarious mess it is.... The UAW who loves every Democrat they have ever met sits around calling the Republicans union busters, and are now getting in line to suck up to the Republican president who will overide the Democratic Congress and give a bunch of money to the car companies so all the UAW guys can keep their jobs till the Democratic President takes charge and will give them even more monies they can never hope to repay....
Do I have it about right, or did I miss something????
:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL:
Couldn't have said it better Dave.:mad:
Sounds about right Dave. In the end, it will be nice to see Ford Chevy and Chrysler names still driving down the road and more importantly doing the trans am theme sports cars again! It does seem major change is on us, like it or not, agree with it or not, and supportive or destructive in some peoples minds. We just need to form a hot rod lobby that shows the merits of this sport and toss in statements like we are promoting and financing the auto industry infrastructure, and therefore 1 out of ten american workers, so please don't restrict us!
I keep calling 1-800-BAILOUT so I can get on the list for these handouts!!!! err, I mean bailouts!!! been nothing but a busy signal for a week!!!!!
Here's another thought.... My dog and I were just discussing this, and it makes sense to me.....: Ford is doing ok, so if GW taps the TARP money and gives it to the big 3, maybe the guys at Ford will just sign the check and forward it to me to help with next year's racing budget????
Gotta go now, need to call Ford and make sure they have my address!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(definition) democrat democracy. is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. if you voted for change, bend over grab your ankles cause you ain't seen nothing yet....ted
You got it right Dave, yes there are two parties and UAW likes one better than the other! Regarding Chrysler Corp., the Daimler Corp. sold it back to a a U.S. consortium that is a private Corp. and the books are not as public as would be GM's books so few actually know their true financial situation, but GM did want to buy Chrysler supposedly because Chrysler has more cash on hand than GM and GM could use that cash to live a little longer. The key to the situation is that UAW Pres. Gettlefinger dredged up some internal memo from Toyota which boasts their wages are actually a few dollars higher per hour than GM. I am skeptical of that claim and after Gettlefinger's Press Conference several of the FOX Business staff said clearly that the Toyoto wages are only slightly more than half what the GM UAW contract provides. I can understand why the GM UAW workers don't want to give in because they have a sweet deal but the danger is to them that GM may simply be liquidated and they will lose their jobs permanently AND the U.S. will lose a proud marque with a rich history. Then again maybe Ford will be the only U.S. survivor and NASCAR next year will have Joe Gibb's Toyotas running against Roushe Fords and some left over out-of-date SBCs and Dodges and maybe the Chevy dominance in NASCAR will be long gone? I am very sorry to see GM go under but if the current UAW contract is maintained until 2011 that may be the end of GM? Hey what do I know? The weather got up to 52F today and I spent most of the day wiring my restorod instead of watching the circus on Fox Business. If you are unaware of Fox Business, you need to look in just to see the ladies if nothing else and maybe they are right a lot of the time?
Don Shillady
Retired SCientist/teen rodder