Thread: Wind power? Anybody skeptical?

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Well said Don. No easy solutions!
The Volkswagon TDI sounds like a sporty alternative. I hate the prius, but we get great deals on all toyotas because of family members working for them. With the price of the TDI and its economy, clean emmisions, lack of batteries to add to a land fill, and dielsel engine which should outlast a gas engine, I see hope on the horizon!

Steve I agree on the Prius,it is ugly.I don't know much about the performance but Toyota seems to be making some good products.I understand there is a waiting list to get the Prius.Probably would not lose when you went to sell,if you bought one.IMO

Today the Democratic controlled congress voted again against drilling for oil for what, the tenth time since Pres. Clinton vetoed drilling in ANWR? It should be clear to everyone that the Environmentalists do not want consumption of ANY fossil fuels (save the polar bears!) so that rules out any liquid fuel internal combustion engine! How are we supposed to get to work while they build the windmills? OK electrolyze water but make it safe, at least as safe as the propane fueled fork lift tractors.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Today the Democratic controlled congress voted again against drilling for oil for what, the tenth time since Pres. Clinton vetoed drilling in ANWR? It should be clear to everyone that the Environmentalists do not want consumption of ANY fossil fuels (save the polar bears!) so that rules out any liquid fuel internal combustion engine! How are we supposed to get to work while they build the windmills? OK electrolyze water but make it safe, at least as safe as the propane fueled fork lift tractors.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

What the heck difference does that make???? They aren't drillinig on the 60 million acres they have now!!!!! ANWR would, at best, be a 2% reduction in our purchase of oil from the mideast---and wouldn't hit the refineries we don't have for probably 5 years---if it hit them at all.... I would imagine it too would just go on the world market as does the rest of the oil....

Don't blame the Democrats for these problems...... It's the WHOLE DAMN SYSTEM that is at fault, not just one party or the other!!!!!! The Republicans have had the white house for 8 years and if anything, things just got worse!!!!

And no, I'm not a Democrat....if anything I'm a Libertarian.... You know, the Isolationist party that is so politically incorrect they hardly warrant a blip on the news.... The party that sez America for Americans and to heck with the rest of the world.......

Republicans blame democrats, democrats blame republicans and nothing gets done.... The VERY FIRST THING that must be done is to have at least one more political party, and TERM LIMITS so maybe, just maybe we don't end up with a bunch of congressmen and senators owned by the highest bidder!!!!!!

The whole damn country is so busy blaming someone else for all their problems and waiting for the government to fix things we're doomed to fail at whatever we try......

All the oil in ANWR wouldn't make a dent in the present problem if it hit the market all at once TODAY!!!!!!

Both parties are the problem.... Don't even look to them for a solution!!!! They like everything just the way it is!!!!!!

Oh well, maybe things will get better when the Chinese call in all the loans we have to buy Mid Eastern oil and they start running the place.... At least the theive and liars running the government now would all be locked up!!!!!

Blaming one party or the other is just taking the easy way out..... Both have had their chance and all they did was make things worse!!!!!

The GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM!!!!!!--not the solution.

Even old T. Boone hisself who's a billionaire from the oil business sez we can't drill our way out of this one!!!!!


Maybe it's time to listen to some new voices and new ideas and quit expecting the different day, same shtuff politics to actually lead to a positive result!!!!!!!

Dave, Sure there would be a delay but to do nothing just prolongs the problem.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

Don't blame the Democrats for these problems...... It's the WHOLE DAMN SYSTEM that is at fault, not just one party or the other!!!!!! The Republicans have had the white house for 8 years and if anything, things just got worse!!!!
Yeh, I know Bush could wave a magic wand and everything would be better He can't do anything without he approval of the Congress and the oversight of the Supreme Court.



The whole damn country is so busy blaming someone else for all their problems and waiting for the government to fix things we're doomed to fail at whatever we try......
We could all take up arms and throw the bums out




All the oil in ANWR wouldn't make a dent in the present problem if it hit the market all at once TODAY!!!!!!
Wow, you got anything to back that up with?

Originally Posted by NTFDAY

Don't blame the Democrats for these problems...... It's the WHOLE DAMN SYSTEM that is at fault, not just one party or the other!!!!!! The Republicans have had the white house for 8 years and if anything, things just got worse!!!!
Yeh, I know Bush could wave a magic wand and everything would be better He can't do anything without he approval of the Congress and the oversight of the Supreme Court.

Bush's credibility is so far gone, as is congresses', that all they are trying to do is blame someone else for the world's problems..... Remember when politicians took a stand on an issue???? Our whole political system is just plain FUBAR!!!!!!!



The whole damn country is so busy blaming someone else for all their problems and waiting for the government to fix things we're doomed to fail at whatever we try......
We could all take up arms and throw the bums out




As for throwing the bums out, real good plan!!!! On their first term, it seems a politician sometimes at least remembers the folks who sent him there, after that he's bought and paid for by special interests..... Go once, then go home!!!!! Maybe they should be like the majority of us, and actually have to earn their money!!!!!!




All the oil in ANWR wouldn't make a dent in the present problem if it hit the market all at once TODAY!!!!!!
Wow, you got anything to back that up with?

Just an opinion on that, but the 2% price reduction is a fact as compiled by the Department of Energy...... 2%---the dang politicians are arguing about a lousy 2%.... There real thing is to get people upset about it, and (as always) divert us peons from realizing that THEY DON'T DO A DANG THING ANYMORE that could possibly jeopardize their re-election..... ANWR is not an answer, barely qualifies as a bandaid!!!!! There's shale oil all over (it works for Canada) and millions of acres of oil land with no drilling going on now.... What a shame, they're drilling for oil in North Dakota, and South Dakota is building a refinery!!!!! and the places where there are huge oil deposits have no wells...... We're just being scammed, that's all......

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Dave, Sure there would be a delay but to do nothing just prolongs the problem.

Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

a Delay!!!! 5 to 7 years before the oil hits the pump as gasoline!!!!! Don't see where that's going to do anything about the price of gas, or worse yet, keeping the house warm this winter when natural gas prices double from last year!!!!!

Don, all the ANWR "discussion" amounts to is another highly successful attempt by the government to create more finger pointing and blame casting and otherwise divert attention from the real issues that our CAUSING the problems!!! Democrat, Republican, it don't matter!!!! They're all the same, owned by somebody, and afraid to make any real committments that would actually solve a problem lest they cost their big money "handlers" some cash!!!!!!!

ANWR is not the only place there is oil.....are all those Republicans out there starting any new wells in the lands that are allready leased and known to have sizeable oil deposits????? No.... and neither are the Democrats...... why should they???? all they (and we) have to do is keep blaming the other party and our elected officials continue to do what they do best.....NOTHING!!!!!! Just like everybody else, the politicians don't want to take responsibility for anything, and find it much easier to blame someone else then actually resolve a problem......

Dave I only cite the ANWR oil as a date when the Democratic Clinton administration started to oppose drilling, not to mention Al Gore's motivation to stop essentially all fossil fuel consumption to reduce CO2 emissions. But on top of that the use of nuclear power is also suppressed. I agree that there is probably more oil in the shale fields of Colorado and North Dakota than in ANWR, but there is also off-shore oil available. I am teaching a class right now with students from Yemen, Ethiopia, Iraq, India, Vietnam and some from the good old USA and they report all kinds of stuff about how the Chinese are scooping up oil in other countries while we watch Cuba and Venezuela drill nearby. The environmentalists seem to me to want to just stop using coal, shale oil, off-shore oil and ANWR oil, any oil or coal just to reduce CO2 while all the time there is no indication that China and India will reduce their CO2 emissions. Sure wind power is great when the wind blows, sure photovoltaic cells are great when the sun is shining and sure we should find clean ways to convert coal to liquid alcohols using the Sasol process. I am for all of those energy sources along with Picken's natural gas. It just seems to me that the environmentalists are intent to choke the U.S. enconomy in order to force conversion to non-fossil fuels as well as no new nuclear power stations. Since the intervening delay you cite may be at least five years, maybe ten to convert to electric cars if indeed that is where we are headed, how are we supposed to commute to work in the meantime? OK pass laws and/or tax breaks to force conversion to electric cars BUT we can't just sit at home for five or ten years until the electrics come along with the enhanced electric grid to handle the load. It just seems to me to be a destructive tactic to cut off available oil sources while other countries continue to get the oil out of the ground and continue to evolve CO2. Just a question, but I wonder how many windmills does Al Gore have on his land? How much of Al Gore's roof is covered with photocells? For the folks on this Forum I would think most of us are hooked to a gas pump at our navel so I am surprised that there is any doubt about the need to drill for more oil. Of course it will run out eventually and we now have about the third serious warning to get ready for alternate energy forms but I would like to see Al Gore put up a windmill and figure out how to get me a tax break to put photocells on my roof. I have heard it costs about $20k for a reasonable rooftop installation and that it will take more than ten years to pay for itself, so if Al Gore wants me to use them I need a tax break for that expense. In conclusion, Dave, I am for all forms of energy not just from ANWR oil. How is it that France can get about 75% of it's electrical power from nuclear plants and yet we are hoping for intermitant current from windmills? By short term priority I would favor North Dakota shale oil most and then a few more nuclear plants, but that is just my opinion.

Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retired Scientist/teen rodder

A tanker just ran into a barge in the Mississippi River at New Orleans---tanker was full of bio-diesel---guess where it was going---

today I see that an Amsterdam corp has been charged with fixing oil prices

and I'm in trouble gor calling out an ass hole for taking pictures of car parts for sale laying on an American Flag

Wind power????? political or windmill type???Back in high school, I remember them saying that you can't create or destroy energy by ordinary means( defined as nuclear explosions aren't ordinary)
I also ran across some stuff about the fact that an moderate size thunder strom released the energy equavment of an X (don't remember number)kiloton bomb( number was big.

With all these wind generators converting wind energy to electric----what is going to be the effects on the weather/climate downstream from the windmills??? hotter? colder? I think colder as heat is energy and it will beremoved from the wind creating cold---next thing-damn ice age???? and of course we will then burn more heating oil causing higher demand on oil reserves which will mean we must put up more windmills which will create demand for Chinese metal which will see more coal mine accidents in China, more dams built over there for hydro electric power which will displace/flood out more families which will make them want to come over here which will drive up food/health care costs which then will-----to be continued

Sunday I have been asked to be guest of honor at the car show in Sycamore Il where they expect 1000 cars/bikes---anyone in Northern Ill stop by---they are expecting driven entries from all corners with confermed entries from as far away as Florida and Washington state--seems that former area residents that are nutty about cars have started schelding there vacations so they can drive here the week of the show

Originally Posted by Don Shillady

Dave I only cite the ANWR oil as a date when the Democratic Clinton administration started to oppose drilling, not to mention Al Gore's motivation to stop essentially all fossil fuel consumption to reduce CO2 emissions. But on top of that the use of nuclear power is also suppressed. I agree that there is probably more oil in the shale fields of Colorado and North Dakota than in ANWR, but there is also off-shore oil available. I am teaching a class right now with students from Yemen, Ethiopia, Iraq, India, Vietnam and some from the good old USA and they report all kinds of stuff about how the Chinese are scooping up oil in other countries while we watch Cuba and Venezuela drill nearby. The environmentalists seem to me to want to just stop using coal, shale oil, off-shore oil and ANWR oil, any oil or coal just to reduce CO2 while all the time there is no indication that China and India will reduce their CO2 emissions. Sure wind power is great when the wind blows, sure photovoltaic cells are great when the sun is shining and sure we should find clean ways to convert coal to liquid alcohols using the Sasol process. I am for all of those energy sources along with Picken's natural gas. It just seems to me that the environmentalists are intent to choke the U.S. enconomy in order to force conversion to non-fossil fuels as well as no new nuclear power stations. Since the intervening delay you cite may be at least five years, maybe ten to convert to electric cars if indeed that is where we are headed, how are we supposed to commute to work in the meantime? OK pass laws and/or tax breaks to force conversion to electric cars BUT we can't just sit at home for five or ten years until the electrics come along with the enhanced electric grid to handle the load. It just seems to me to be a destructive tactic to cut off available oil sources while other countries continue to get the oil out of the ground and continue to evolve CO2. Just a question, but I wonder how many windmills does Al Gore have on his land? How much of Al Gore's roof is covered with photocells? For the folks on this Forum I would think most of us are hooked to a gas pump at our navel so I am surprised that there is any doubt about the need to drill for more oil. Of course it will run out eventually and we now have about the third serious warning to get ready for alternate energy forms but I would like to see Al Gore put up a windmill and figure out how to get me a tax break to put photocells on my roof. I have heard it costs about $20k for a reasonable rooftop installation and that it will take more than ten years to pay for itself, so if Al Gore wants me to use them I need a tax break for that expense. In conclusion, Dave, I am for all forms of energy not just from ANWR oil. How is it that France can get about 75% of it's electrical power from nuclear plants and yet we are hoping for intermitant current from windmills? By short term priority I would favor North Dakota shale oil most and then a few more nuclear plants, but that is just my opinion.

Best Wishes,
Don Shillady
Retiured Scientist/teen rodder

I love how people pick on Gore for pointing out the obvious, to people who will continue to turn a deaf ear, until at some point in time our planet will be too toxic for human life. Yes Gore's ranch is a flamming energy pig! Yes he is a stinking politician like them all, including Bush who also has his pockets deeply lined by the oil industry.
California already offers tax incentives for installing solar panels. And yes it may take ten years to pay them off, is that a reason not to use them?
Dave is right, government is not up for the challenge, but we are. We can make a difference by our daily choices. Sometimes doing the right thing costs more. And no Don, I don't think we can just stop using fossil fuels, hell why would any hot rodder even go there. But there are a lot of other areas we can save, including using economy fuel efficient cars to commute long distances, instead of our SUV's when, MOST people only need a two seater!
And yes we can update our windows, to duel pane low E, and insulate uninsulated areas, and buy energy efficient appliances when the old ones wear out. We can replace water heaters with tankless systems, turn off lights in rooms, when we leave, and put those energy saving florescent bulbs in the rooms with the lights on all the time. There are a lot of ways, to reduce, not stop, our consumption, that aren't that painfull or expensive.

Yeah, what the heck.... Blame Clinton, Gore, Democrats et al, me, Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny.... But still nothing is being done to alleviate the problem... But hey, as long as everyone just keeps arguing about who's fault it is, then the solution is impossible to obtain....

I don't even care who broke it.....I just wanna now how we fix it.....and don't tell me the government is going to fix it....Cuz that ain't gonna happen!!!!! When one of the most successful oil men in this country sez we can't drill our way out of it, then why keep harping about whose dang fault it is?????

There is no magic wand or instant cure that ANY political party is going to come up with, as Steve stated, the government just flat doesn't care!!!!! They've dialed themselves in enough pay raises and benefits that it's little more then a minor inconvenience to them.....

I'll still stand by my original contention that the best way to start solving a lot of the problems this country is facing is term limits!!!!! Maybe if the politicians (don't call them fools, they've created a monstrosity to protect themselves that we may never be able to dismantle) know that they have a couple terms and they're gone, they'll actually grow a pair and start doing things right again!!!!!

Or, just keep blaming party a or b, presidents 1-Bush, and continue the decline.....

As for the hose on the fuel pump being a cord essential to my survival, the easy cure is to CUT THE DANG THING!!!! Life in the suburbs is great, but it is so great that you're willing to spend 30% of your pay just to "enjoy" the commute!!!! I walk to work, walk to the store, walk to the coffee shop, and a number of other places........not by chance but by choosing a place to live that makes this possible. Lots of other possibilities, too. Public transportation, car pools, working 4-10 hour shifts instead of 5-8 hour shifts...... I'm certainly no genius on logistics, but I figured out how to cut my expenses...... Had to sacrifice a few things, but that's ok too..... Maybe, as Uncle Bob sez, it does nothing more then provide a warm fuzzy, but at least I'm doing something about it...... The government ain't gonna fix it, it's up to individuals. Simple supply and demand economics would do more to lower the price of oil then anything else...... Less demand leads to a bigger supply, and lower prices....

I agree that there's lots of things each of us can do to reduce the amount of energy consumed,most of them I've already been doing,like insulating,switching to insulated low e glass,buying energy star appliances and furnace,etc. Unfortunately,as an individual, I can't build hydro-electric or nuclear generators, give tax incentives and grants,or just flat out mandate action the way the government can. With Congress just trying to pass an energy bill last week, the price of oil on the nyse dropped $14 a barrel. What affect do you think passing an all inclusive energy package would have? Hank

I still say the individual consumer has the power to change the situation. If we aren't consuming it, then they can't sell it.
It still boils down to $$$. It's all about the powers that be making more money.
We have been sucking the cheap energy tit for so long that now when weaning time comes we all squeal like a pig. The cheap ride is over, face it and adjust.