problem with dual quads using Holleys is how long they are and spacing necessary---------the older more square carbs work better on most dual quad manifolds except for the Ford FE
---and they are mounted backwards on them
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problem with dual quads using Holleys is how long they are and spacing necessary---------the older more square carbs work better on most dual quad manifolds except for the Ford FE
---and they are mounted backwards on them
I can’t argue about the availability of parts and tuneability of the Holleys.
With the exception of secondary air valve opening which is pretty much fixed (but can be adjusted by adding or removing weight) with a selection of step rods, power valve springs and jets the Carters are just as tuneable as the Holleys. For me the big plus on the Carter/Edelbrock carbs is the simplicity and ease of making the changes on car.
Minor jetting changes can be done by removing 2 small screws and changing out step rods. Rather than having to pull a fuel bowl and metering block to change the power valve the function can be changed by changing out the springs under the piston s connected to the step rods. ….and they don’t blow out or have a diaphragm that rots. With a one piece main body if jet changes are required the lid comes off with 10 screws and all the fuel stay in the fuel bowls (and you don’t have the gaskets that seem to tear in half sticking to the body and metering block). Accelerator pump shot and timing can be changed with the external linkage and the bigger accelerator pump nozzles can be exchanged to the bigger AVS nozzles.
You are right about availability of parts Ken. The old Carter Strip Kits (Rod, Springs, jets etc) were great while the new Edelbrock kits are overpriced and limited in their selection of parts. Fortunately for me I have 2 of the 60s kits plus one of the newer ones. A friend mine bought out the inventory of an old Chrysler dealership many years ago and was kind enough to give me all the Carter parts they had on hand (and there was a bunch LOL. Between that and the parts I’ve stripped of parts carbs over the years I’m pretty well set for working on them. It’s a good thing too. I just looked up the strip kits on E Bay and was that ever a sticker shock!!!! :eek:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...+kits&_sacat=0
With what they get for parts now I guess I need to charge more when I re-jet/fine tune customer carbs :LOL::LOL:
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I didn't need dist offset for mine--------is that a Ford manifold or an aftermarket?? Don't see the Ford number??
Mike, I searched for AFB's, Edelbrocks, and holleys when piecing my dual quads together. I finally made my mind up and decided to go with 390cfm holleys. They were hard to find, but I did get 3 off ebay. My only concern with them is like you said. They will be a little harder to tune or work on. The center float bowels dang near touch. If some people actually finish paying their truck build bills, I'm hoping to get Fitech dual quad this winter. We'll see about that though.
I just looked at the Fitech dual quad set up, it looks like it would be fun to play with.
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Yeah I noticed the price on that too.
I hope nobody got the impression that I hate Holleys. I've run a lot of them over the years......and made some good money rebuilding/tuning them for customers. Back when I was much younger, I usually ran an AFB during the week and on Friday throw a Holley on and go play during the weekend then put the Carter back on Sunday night.
I got a friend back here who loves Holleys and if he picks up an AFB I usually have a Holley sitting on the shelf and we trade one for one. Unfortunately he's working in Afghanistan right now so I can't see what he's got sitting on his shelf right now.
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I didn't get that impression Mike. If I run the 2-4 Offy I've got in the garage on the Vette it'll probably get a pair of Eddy's unless I can find holley's cheaper.
Your mention of the Offy Dual Quad brought a smile to my face. I ran an Offy 2X4 on my old 65 Biscayne (350 4 speed).
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4557/...940a39b0_z.jpg65 Biscayne 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
I ran an older pair of Carters on that and loved it.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4481/...c8ef4d9f_z.jpg65 Dual quad by M Patterson, on Flickr
A couple of months ago I tried to find the Offenhauser progressive linkage like I had on that set up for a customers car. Pretty much unavailable, and when I did come across a couple of them they were well over $100. I ended up using the cheaper one the same style with the stamped steel slide.....and as I recall that wasn't real cheap either. I'll probably just end up building my own when it comes time for it on the Hemi.
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Is this what you were referring too Mike?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/58-59-60-61...53.m1438.l2649
That's the one I used on the customers car Ken. The one I was hunting for is pretty much the same except the piece the linkage rod slides thru is cast aluminum like the one in my picture above.
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I just spent a half hour or so looking at AFB's on ebay and some of the prices are ridiculous at best. I think I'll wait until our big swap meet in August and see if I can find anything within reason. This is the only thing I saw on ebay that might be worth the asking price. I had a couple of old ones and used to double spring them.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1958-65-CAR...9XVd2C&vxp=mtr
I wasn't looking for AFB's, but I was looking for edelbrocks. I did notice that swap meet prices were higher than craigslist and ebay. I wasn't thrilled to have to pay $180 each for my 390cfm holleys. But new ones are $580ea and were out of stock when I was searching. Edelbrock 600s were bringing $200+ at swap meets and looked horrid. It is crazy how much used carbs are bringing these days. I used to be able to buy 750 and 850 double pumpers for less than $100 at swap meets. Now you can get a hand full of parts for one for that at a swap meet it seems.
Yeah, I hear you both, pretty much the same here. I did make a great score at the TSRA swap meet last year though. A complete AFB with free shafts from a 64 Buick for $10!!!!! There out there, but way few and far between.
Kits for any of them have gone thru the roof too. Fortunately I've been able to find Needles and seats separately and have some accelerator pumps on hand, which are about the only parts that occasionally need replaced on the Carters/Edelbrocks.
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I’ve been doing carburetors the last couple of days. The two 9000 series Carters I picked up at the swap meet were pretty grungy but at least were complete and didn’t have any corrosion internally.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4559/...4ddf616e_z.jpgsm2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
They both cleaned up well and I had enough parts on hand to build one so I only had to buy one kit. I verified they were both jetted the same and have the same step rods and springs so that will be my starting point.
I built the carb I’m going to be using as the primary carb back to the way it originally was and removed the choke from the carb that will be used as the secondary carb. It happens the carb spacing on the factory manifold is just right to use an aftermarket fuel line for a Holley dual feed double pumper, which takes care of having to build fuel lines.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4575/...f5342890_z.jpgDQ by M Patterson, on Flickr
The choke parts didn’t go to waste. I’d picked up an Eldebrock 600 parts carb hoping that I’d be able to use that and parts from another 600 I had to build one good carb.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4579/...eb7c1134_z.jpgsm1 by M Patterson, on Flickr
Everything worked out well on that (I even had a kit on the shelf for it). The body I used to build it was originally a manual choke so it inherited the left over electric choke from the Carter.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4526/...d500ab4c_z.jpgEDL by M Patterson, on Flickr
The wifes’ Mustang and El Camino both have 600 Eldebrocks on them so this one will sit on the shelf as a spare for now.
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Mike, have you seen this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/112642692463?ul_noapp=true
Mike, is it best to have the carb with the choke on the rear and not on the front? That is pretty cool that holley double pumper feed line fit those carbs on your intake. I have yet to rebuild my carbs. I have the kits for them, so if things don't work out on a Fitech, I'll just run the carbs.
I saw this on there and this seems pretty cheap IMO.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/354-HEMI-CH...paByjL&vxp=mtr
“….Mike, have you seen this?.......”
Thanks Ken, I saw you had posted it on Ryans’ thread. I book marked it so I could see what the final bid is. I’m like Ryan I think it will go high (I’d guess in the $750-1000 range) but I really haven’t followed the prices in a couple of years.
The manifold is basically an aluminum copy of the original Chrysler Dual Quad intake set up for bigger carbs. The carbs are probably buildable, the numbers show up for 500CFM chokeless, but I really don’t know what’s going on with the venturies in the front carb (first picture).
I’m with you on the 354 Hemi Ryan it seems way to cheap and my initial impression was it’s probably a scam. I looked at the guys feedback though and seeing some of the other stuff he has sold and what it went for it might be legit.
Opinions vary about the need for a second choke and even the factory set ups varied on whether they used 1 or 2 depending on the manufacture and engine. On the dual quad engines I’ve had I ended up using progressive linkage (although I tried both synchronize and progressive to see what the engine liked better). Running progressive linkage the rear carb becomes the primary carb as the primaries are closer to the center of the manifold and you really only need a choke on the primary carb. Getting two choke to close and open at about the same time can be a bit of a challenge, it’s doable and a lot easier with electric chokes than using exhaust manifold heat or a choke stove.
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Ryan I went back and relooked at the Hemi again.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/354-HEMI-CH...575?rmvSB=true
Before I spent any money on it I’d sure like to see some receipts or maybe talk to Bob at Hot Hemi Heads to see if he remembers the build.
A couple of things I noticed when I looked at the pictures were the heads/timing cover. The timing cover is the one with the built in chevy water pump adapters for the 51-54 331 car/51-59 truck and marine engines (331 and 354). I can’t really tell from the pictures but the 51-54 car and some of the truck/industrial/truck heads used the less desirable small port/small valve heads.
Even if the heads have the larger ports/valves the biggest problem is the heads on that engine really limit the intake manifold selection. The late 54-57 car heads have the water ports on the ends of the heads and use the crossover pipe with the thermostat housing located in the crossover. The later heads are set up for a “dry intake”. Without the crossover provisions, you are limited to using a “wet intake” with the water passages and thermostat housing built into the intake. As far as I know that leaves you with factory cast iron 2 barrel and single 4 barrel intake manifolds.
To use any of the more popular aftermarket intakes with those heads would probably require some added plumbing on the intake to pick the water up from the heads to get it back to the radiator. Something like that had been done to the old 6X2 intake that is on my 37 Dodge sometime in its life before I got it.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4567/...f6dba075_z.jpg6X2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
Yeah that’s some kind of ugly. :eek:
Anyway, not saying the Hemi isn't worth the money, it just might be a surprise for a first time Hemi buyer.
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I wish I could have afforded something like this in the 60's. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carter-Carb...53.m1438.l2649
They are sure nice to have Ken. I bought my original one (like the ones shown) back around 1971 and then bought one of the "newer" ones about 15 years ago. I've actually got more pieces in the kits than they originally started with, Whenever I parted out an AFB/AVS (some of which I'd sure try to save today) I always kept the jets, rods and springs. Several years ago a friend of mine bought out the parts department of a closed Chrysler dealer and gave me all the rods and jets that were in the inventory.
The biggest problem I have any more is reading the numbers on the jets.....a bright light, my reading glasses AND a magnifying glass usually gets me by on that........or I guess I could just hand them to Cade to read :LOL:. The step rods aren't too bad I just use my calipers on those.
The biggest thing I seem to go thru are the step up springs. The factory calibration on the Edelbrocks doesn't seem to like the 4500 ft altitude here too much. Fortunately the spring kits are readily available and not too bad on price so I just ordered a couple of those kits.
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Nice catch on that Hemi Mike. That definitely would be a kick in the pants and sort of explains why the price is lower.
Now, back to the Fitech dual quads set up. I got my latest speedway catalog today. I'm having a really hard time justifying the $1795 for regular dual quad or the $1995 for the power adder dual quad. In the speedway catalog, I can get holley sniper efi as a complete kit with fuel lines, pre fuel filter, post filter, fittings, and a pump for $1250. I'd still have to get a new single 4bbl manifold, but after the sale of the dual quad stuff, I might not be setting too bad. I'm seriously thinking about listing my dual quad set up for sale.
I could put fuel injection and air conditioning on the car for the price of the fitech dual quads. So I really have to decide how "cool" would the dual quads be anyway? I won't be gaining any performance per say right now. The holley sniper 4 injector kit is good to 650hp. That's a good 200hp more of where this engine will be for a couple years at least.
I hear you Ryan. If you don't mind an old man's ramblings:
Cool factor is in the eye of the beholder and adapting any kind of FI to a first Gen Hemi is cool (not as cool as a Hilborn with a set of calliope stacks, but cool none the less :3dSMILE: ). At this point where there will really be no performance gain, you would still have the advantages of a fuel injection system. Nobodys going to know what's under the hood when you are going down the road anyway.
In my mind the "cool factor" when you open the hood will be due in large part to what air cleaner you use to complement the big valve covers.
JMO, but I think I'd revisit the bat wing air cleaner....to me a FI unit sandwiched between a vintage style air cleaner on an early Hemi would be great and blend well with the theme of the outside of the car.
Another air cleaner that to me looks good on an early Hemi, regardless of the fuel mixer underneath is the Mopar 6 Pack air cleaner.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4528/...3a8c183b_z.jpgC 37 by M Patterson, on Flickr
You used to be able to buy the aftermarket chrome lids for about $70, but I couldn't find any when I just looked and the painted ones are going in the $100 range now. The air filter is about $75, and most people make there own base out of a sheet of metal.
No matter what you do DO NOT slap a big blob of plastic over it that has 5.7 HEMI embossed on it no matter how tempting it is.......you will lose ALL you're cool factor points. :LOL::LOL::LOL:
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Part of me wants to just keep going the way it is and keep it simple. I just have a hard time making decisions. Too many options and its hard for me to keep on track. That air cleaner you have there is sweet. I didn't even think of that one but I could probably like it better than the bat wing unit. I can always hang it on the wall. :LOL:
I wonder if the 6 pack one would work better for me since my carb studs are further apart compared to a 426 2x4 lid?
The 6 Pack air cleaners are simple to adapt to a dual quad set up. Like I said I built my own base. Use the lid as a template and trace the shape on a piece of sheet metal (I used aluminum to save weight). Figure out where the air cleaner sits and looks and looks best (the holes in the lid are not centered so one end will stick out a little further than the other. Once you're happy with it, mark and cut out the openings for the carb throats. You will probably want/need spacers to get the base up just a little bit from the carbs and the commercial ones are readily available and cheap in either plastic or metal.
It doesn't really matter if both, one or neither of the holes in the lid match up to where the hold down studs from the carburetor (within reason). If needed an S curve can be bent into the carb studs to make them match the holes in the lid.
This was just mock up. I actually moved the air cleaner back a little so the rear carb stud went the air cleaner lid and used the S Shaped stud in the front carb.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4537/...db45fb0f_z.jpgDual quads by M Patterson, on Flickr
By the way IMO the black valve covers and air cleaner also look really good on an early hemi. I did this set in black winkle paint which looked really good when it was clean......the problem was keeping wrinkle paint clean is a huge PIA. If I were to actually use a set of black covers and air cleaner I'd do them in semi gloss black.
I don't have any pictures of the dual quad base I made but I do have a couple of the base I made/have for the 6X2 setup. Making sure SIX holes are properly aligned was a lot of fun. :rolleyes:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4553/...3c0ddbf2_z.jpg6X2 T by M Patterson, on Flickr
I had to use spacers to get the lid up a bit to clear the top of the carbs and had to attach them to the base. It's not a problem you will have with commercial spacers which should just sandwich between the carbs and air cleaner base. As the base was aluminum and the spacers steel I ended up riveting them to the base with simple L brackets. I also made brackets to catch the carb studs in the 4 outer carbs to secure the base to the carburetors. To give it a finished look I used a piece of the flexible door edge guard around the edge of the base.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4525/...3e07fd8b_z.jpg6X2 T by M Patterson, on Flickr
That big old air cleaner is a good way to hide just how many carbs I'm running on the Dodge which is why I decided to go with the 6 small air cleaners..........So the 6 pack air cleaner for the Drag Star was sure of bunch of work for more garage art :LOL::LOL:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4537/...fb4d1f55_z.jpgGA by M Patterson, on Flickr
That being said it does look nice on the Hemi and someday I might actually put it on the truck.
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Speaking of Air Cleaners.
Ma Mopar used oval air cleaners on the Dual Quad Hemis in 58 that I always thought looked really neat.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4563/...e1506159_z.jpgS F 4 by M Patterson, on Flickr
Like most things that are really neat, originals are almost impossible to find and usually VERY expensive. I've seen beat up used pairs go for over grand. Of course reproductions are available .......over $300 a pair for fiberglass and $600 for primered steel (the filter elements....not included.... will set you back $50-75 each) They sure do look pretty chromed though.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4539/...c9ab1b53_z.jpgS F 3 by M Patterson, on Flickr
For a hot rod though, I always thought this might make an interesting alternative in kind of the same style.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4540/...eddf88e1_z.jpgS F 5 by M Patterson, on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4585/...30b04648_z.jpgS F 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
They're Harley Davison Sportster air cleaners. They take either paper or a K&N oval air filter which should support a dual quad application without any problem. They came in various widths over the years so you kind of have to watch for that when you look for them. The 70s era ones also have a metal base which should be pretty simple to convert for a 4 Barrel.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4484/...b89f3a10_z.jpgS F 6 by M Patterson, on Flickr
A big plus is most people end up changing out for a different style air cleaner and these are pretty readily available......I've seen ones with good chrome go in the $10-25 range.
And yes I do have entirely tooooo much time on my hands this morning :LOL::LOL::LOL:
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Thanks for the pics and ideas Mike. Your bases look really nice. I went ahead and ordered a 6 pack lid last night. I also found K&N makes a replacement filter for them so I got one of those as well. I think this air cleaner will give a better look and not cover up the engine like my bat wing will.
It never fails, a couple of days after I got the 625 CFM Swap Meet carburetors rebuilt I found out a friend of mine had the carb that was a mate for an early 60s Cadillac carb I had on the shelf. His was sitting gathering dust so we ended up doing a bit of trading and it ended up in my shop.
The Cadillac carbs are 575 CFM and I'd used a pair of them on my 65 Chevy years ago. They ran really well with the 350/4 speed in the Chevy and they had really been my first choice for the Hemi. I had the one and had been keeping an eye out for a mate for the last few years but had pretty much given up finding another.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4542/...a03e8525_z.jpgCad AF by M Patterson, on Flickr
I picked up a couple of kits and got them both taken apart and cleaned up. It looked like both had had a kit some time in their past but It had been a long time ago. When was the last time you took a carburetor apart and it had steel needles (no “rubber” tips) in it?
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4525/...49722a5c_z.jpgSN by M Patterson, on Flickr
They both cleaned up nice, so I now have 2 pairs of carbs to try out.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4570/...34ae9f1f_z.jpgCad AFB 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
These AFBs are a little unusual compared to most of the ones produced. They don’t have an idle speed adjustment screw. The throttle plates are closed at idle and the speed is adjusted with the brass air bleed screw located between the fuel mixture screws. As they are the early AFBs they have the also have the smaller 4 7/32” air cleaner base instead of the 5 1/8” used on the later AFBs. I found an outfit that sells aluminum adapter rings for the air cleaners so I sprung for a pair of those too.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4566/...7ff45651_z.jpgC2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
I figure I'll eventually try both pair of carbs on the 57 I'm kind of curious to see how much difference there will be between them.
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That worked out well I'd say. :LOL:
I think so Ryan :D
Don;t know if you followed it or not but the Weiand Dual Quad intake and carbs went way cheaper than I thought it would ($475) !
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112642692463?rmvSB=true
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".....I thought that to be a decent price......."
I agree Ken. IMO for a used manifold that is still in production (new $375-400) and Carbs that are probably buildable but would need some work that is really a fair price.
If I didn't already have a manifold and carbs, I would pay that for it. Of course just because it went for $475 doesn't mean you could have won it for for $476. You don't know how much higher the winner was willing to go.
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Yeah, I saw that. I bet if I was bidding it would not have stopped there. :LOL:
I spent the last few days sorting out the linkage for both pairs of AFBs. Building linkage on the bench is a lot easier than doing it stretched over a fender :D . The Carter 625s were already on the intake so I started with those. I set both pairs of carbs up for synchronized and progressive linkage so I can easily change over and find out what the engine likes best.
The synchronized linkage was a snap and took just a couple of minutes to set up.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4521/...303cc760_z.jpgDQS by M Patterson, on Flickr
The progressive linkage is just slightly more complicated but still pretty simple. It's so simple I just couldn't bring myself to spend $35 for a pre-made set so I spent about an hour building my own. I basically just copied the style used on the Chevys Dual Quad 409 cars.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4522/...6120ab15_z.jpgDQ P by M Patterson, on Flickr
There is just enough difference between the throttle arms on the 625 CFM Carters and the Caddy AFBs that the linkage wouldn't directly interchange so I just built a second set for the Caddy carbs.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4519/...55b2b9b9_z.jpgCad afb s by M Patterson, on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4521/...e1e0201e_z.jpgCad AFB P by M Patterson, on Flickr
Here's a shot of the other side with the fuel line.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4539/...6906f3d3_z.jpgDQFL by M Patterson, on Flickr
I've gone about as far as I can on the dual quads until it's time to install them. For now I'll throw a towel over them until I get some more Plymouth time.
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Mike, you're making me reconsider putting dual quads on my Vette. The linkage in the second picture is very close to what was on the sbc in the 36 coupe I had in the late 60's. It was a set up from an early Vette with WCFB's.
Wasn't the stop/collar on the rod for the front carb originally in between the arms of the u piece?? That way it not only opened the carb but would force it closed also
So on your progressive linkages Mike, the throttle cable or rod attaches to the rear carb and the rear carb opens first then the front opens once the rod stop hits the bracket on the arm?
You’re exactly right Ryan. On the progressive linkages the pickup point for the linkage on the secondary carb(s) is closer to the butterfly shaft than it is on the primary carburetor . This causes the secondary carb to open fast than the primary carb. Most manuals on tri-power and dual quads recommend adjusting the linkage to that both carbs reach WOT at the same time.
As long as the carbs were easy to get to while they were on the bench, I set both pairs up so that either carb could be used as either a primary or secondary carb. That was basically just putting the stud for the secondary bracket on both carbs (blue arrow). You can see how much difference there is between where the linkage picks up on the primary carb (top hole) and where the stud is on the secondary carb.
While setting up the carbs the way the manual says is great for racing, most of my driving is Interstate miles. I’ve found in real life on a street car the secondary carbs usually come in too quickly for my taste. I usually set it up so that the secondarys start opening at 80 MPH on a flat stretch of road. The rear carb never really reaches WOT but it’s close enough you never notice it :3dSMILE:
In the case of the 57 Plymouth the throttle rod actually pushes instead of pulls. That being the case the rod connects to the lower part of the throttle arm (where the red arrow is).
The stud I put in on the carbs for the secondary bracket will still serve a purpose on the carb that is used as the primary…..it will now become where the cruise control linkage connects :)
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4556/...b1403141_z.jpgCad AFB P 2 by M Patterson, on Flickr
Jerry, all the ones I've seen (including the factory 409 cars) have had the stop at the front. What you are saying makes sense and I've wondered if that wasn't the original intent by who ever came up with the design. I actually tried setting it up that way on the Dual Quad 440 I built years ago. I was using the Offenhauser linkage that is designed the same as this only the bracket on the front carb was cast aluminum. The problem I found in doing it that way was that the length between the holes in the bracket was too short. When it was properly adjusted to activate the front carb, when the throttle is released the stop would contact the front of the bracket too soon and hold the rear carb open.
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Still collecting parts and trying to figure out the power steering conversion for the Plymouth.
I'm currently looking at Borgeson pitman arms (the 2 listed for the 605 box)
https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=56
Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with them.......good or bad.
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